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Author Topic: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?  (Read 3102 times)

Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 11:14:49 am »

i know of motte&bailey and there are problems to that aswell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpRnTxIAqLU
and putting it all into one of the outer baileys of one big castle doesn't make it much better, because you might not be able to fit all the required farms into.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 11:26:27 am by Pvt. Pirate »
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Sver

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 11:31:55 am »

i know of motte&bailey and there are problems to that aswell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpRnTxIAqLU
and putting it all into one of the outer baileys of one big castle doesn't make it much better, because you might not be able to fit all the required farms into.

In reality - no. In DF - with ease, as the farming yields are incredibly huge even on tiny plots.
Same goes for the problems, really - the invader AI is just not smart enough to exploit these weaknesses.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 12:36:11 pm »

then where'd you put the trade depot? out in the open in the outer bailey? in a partly open building? or even outside the castle?
where'd you store the amounts of goods for trade?
afaik there's no hospital in a castle, nor a library and certainly no tavern.
would you go mining underground or just do surface mining?
would the mine be inside the bailey (wtf!) or outside?
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Sver

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 01:26:43 pm »

Depends.

I build fairly big above ground forts, which are really more like towns than motte-and-bailey castles (which wouldn't have a market, e.g. depot, at all), so there is enough room for everything. Late game houses are at least two stories tall, so there's plenty of space for stockpiling on the ground level.

There is a "market", where the depot is packed tightly together with various workshops and the houses where the craftsmen live.

Medic has their own house, where the hospital is located, which can be expanded if the need for hospital beds grows. The castle's barracks can be repurposed for a hospital temporarily, if the things get really bad.

I use individual dinning rooms (for commoners it just overlaps with their bedroom), so taverns are more like little gathering places where people meet (undistracted by furniture etc., as suggested in this thread), scattered around the town. The ones outside the castle are open for all, while the ones inside are citizen-only.

The library is merged with the main temple, which is a dedicated building.

I don't do open quarries for fps reasons. The mines (together with the smelters and such) are usually outside the walls, but that is never a big problem because they are only used occassionally, and thus, don't require constant defense. There is a fence and a door, and I can move a bunch of guards nearby when the bars/blocks get hauled out, but that's about it. I keep the metal bars in various stockpiles within the town/castle, somewhere near the forges where they get processed as needed (fairly quick, as armor and weapons in my mod are expensive to make). Motivates me to be more cautious with resources during the sieges, which would hardly be the case with a nigh-infinite supply of metal within the walls.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 01:28:20 pm by Sver »
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 02:09:42 pm »

that sounds fair and well, but would be rather tedious to be done on a 3x3 (or smaller) embark.
for various reasons i'm still using 44.09 so stress is less of a problem.
are you using a fix plan for whre which building gets built and in which size dimensions?
i like to go with medieval city plans, fortress plans or monestary plans.
i'm thinking of monastaries, Ideal cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_city and planned communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_community .
i even tried to build a monastary-temple-farmstead-fortress once and failed epicly when a werebeast attacked and we didn't even finish the foundation and moat yet.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 02:26:20 pm by Pvt. Pirate »
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2018, 02:41:30 pm »

The keep/castle/manor part is pretty easy--it's just a huge pain in the ass to build all the outlying homesteads and get them properly assigned.

Another problem is the lack of naturally defensible geographical features--just the way world/map gen works there are very few opportunities for interesting designs. You can usually get a cliff where two+ rivers/streams/brooks flow into one another, but that's about it.

I'd probably be more inclined to actually follow through with building the farms and homesteads if there was some natural ruggedness to the land.
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Sver

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 02:57:06 pm »

that sounds fair and well, but would be rather tedious to be done on a 3x3 (or smaller) embark.
for various reasons i'm still using 44.09 so stress is less of a problem.
are you using a fix plan for whre which building gets built and in which size dimensions?
i like to go with medieval city plans, fortress plans or monestary plans.
i'm thinking of monastaries, Ideal cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_city and planned communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_community .
i even tried to build a monastary-temple-farmstead-fortress once and failed epicly when a werebeast attacked and we didn't even finish the foundation and moat yet.

On a flat or mostly flat 3x3 embark it works alright. If space is really too much of a problem, quantum stockpiles are always an option. I should also mention that I don't keep a lot of furniture, stone or wood lying around - those get aquired and processed only as needed.

I don't really use plans, rather some references from google, which I only follow loosely. I rebuild and repurpose building quite often during the mid game. As for scale, commoners' houses are usually about 5x7 tiles (including walls), the castle's keep - 13x13, the main temple, and the rest is everything inbetween. Separate manors can be as large as 20x20, but those I've only ever built on larger (4x4) embarks.

I always bring some initial weapons and make wooden shields early on, just in case. On the fair note, I've never had a werebeast attack in the first year (since 34.11, at least), which seems to be a commonly reported thing.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2018, 04:02:20 pm »

when it comes to defensive designs for such a town and the keep, i guess i have to abandon a lot of the european medieval designs and go for japanese ones and even develop completely new ones.
i'll see what i can get and try it on my next embark.

in terms of arbitrary, a roman castra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra is closer to the dorfen society and also in terms of layout.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 05:33:19 pm by Pvt. Pirate »
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 07:18:15 pm »

I absolutely love this! 
I tend to name the first 7 dwarves by the name of the site (As in, "of Lancedteach") and designate a series of first nicknames to distinguish them as unmarried male (name-o"), unmarried female (name-i), married male (name surname) and married female (name-ia surname).  Surnames are determined by finding the first dwarf in the jobs list and using the first word of their last name, which is heritable by their children.

I'll go look up all the royalty in Legends mode and make a list of each, then in adventurer mode find each noble and rename them using the above rules.  Migrant waves go through a regular renaming process as do new births.  The Royalty, of course, is encouraged to be married and producing heirs - burrowed into palatial quarters with all skills turned off except military training.  They regularly become "entertainers" at temples or Throne Rooms - I see them "telling stories" as "making speeches". Of course, Royalty gets a surname even if single: The name of the Mountainhome itself.  Unrelated new Dynasties might take on the new Mountainhome name, or change their name to the former's and add a "II" to the end to show legitimacy.

One final name is reserved for Artifact makers: (Name Surname -if any- Artifact).  The Artifact name is non-heritable unless there's no surname already.

Two dwarves marrying with surnames have the dwarf with the most people in their Family sharing a surname, or the higher respectability of position (If Noble or Royals)  becoming the "Dominant Clan", with the other Clan "swearing fealty" to them.  This actually makes an interesting nest of interconnected families where Surnames are chosen for their historic respect.  Artifact maker increase the Respect by +10, as does various positions.  Open Noble positions like Baronies are chosen by which family has the greatest respect, and the person who is the Matriarch or Patriarch of that Clan getting the job.  It's fun to see the process happen, although a copy of the Fortress that is saved and retired for that year is needed to find out what is happening off site with the various other nobles, and clans.

Adding this mod in will give me more levels of nobles to work with in my 250+ dwarf forts!

I was going back and forth on whether or not to write up a wall of text about the feudalism being, for a large part, a form of military and legal organization, but now I see that Urist McScoopbeard already did it pretty well, so I'll just drop my little something here.
Spoiler: For those interested (click to show/hide)
It's an attempt to create a believable, even if DF-ish, feudal nobility system for humans. The central idea was to make nobles actually useful and desirable to get, instead of them being nothing but the usual annoyance, by making them neccessary to unlock certain mechanics, such as an organized military. Also, to make the whole system a bit more engaging, with mandates, demands and succession that loosely simulate the political weight of hereditary land owners and elected representatives of certain groups, such as craftsmen. As a bonus, this system gives three possible development paths for the fort to take:
1) Lay low (limit the population to <80) and live with a fairly undemanding reeve, their peasant helpers and a reasonably sized, but disorganized militia.
2) Grow, accept a barony and have lots of demanding nobles, but with a large and organized military.
3) Grow, but keep your distance and enjoy the guilds "seizing control" of the fort, with very few mandates, but a non-existent military (aside from a small merchant guard) - that is, until your fort is large enough to be considered a city and field their own militia.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:37:24 pm by Timeless Bob »
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Hase anyone tried organizing their fort into a feudalistic caste system?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 12:56:36 pm »

well, i tend to just use autolabor and not rename any dorfs, lest add different burrows for them, so it's rather a fortress design question than an actual caste/rank system.
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