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[therahedwig]

Problem:

Dwarves endlessly claim clothing items as soon as worn items get damaged. This old issue leads to endless items being accumulated by them.

Side problems:

Dwarves often have a desire to practice a craft due to cultural values and this is tricky to fulfill.

Solution: Dwarves will repair their own tattered clothing using other tattered clothing.

• Repairs on tattered clothing can only happen with other tattered clothing, consuming the latter. Forcing this is unrealistic, but it serves the reduction of tattered items without interfering with ownership.
• A repair will result in a repair modification on the item. Nobles will dislike having repair modifications on items.
• This will fulfill a need to craft.
• This should be something dwarves do automatically, much like getting new clothes.
• This will give the tinsiest bit of clothing making experience
• An experienced clothier will be able to transfer clothing improvements from the source item to the destination/repaired item (An inexperienced clothier might not even realise an improvement is present)
• An experienced clothier might be able to do the repairs in simple symbols or shapes
• There should be a limitation of repair modifications, much like how there are limitations to improvements. These can be based on clothing size.
• Whether or not this requires a clothing workshop is up to discussion. It is quite easy to create a single workshop for dabblers with the new manager options

Second hand clothing and repairs used to be a really big industry in Europe until at the very least the first half of the twentieth century, and it was only undone by cheap mass production of clothing(and even today there's still people who will cut up old clothing to rags that can be reused for cleaning or to fix similar clothing. Jeans come to mind.) Secondhand clothes were/are also used to make quilted items(blankets, tapestries, cushions, padded armor, toys(rag dolls), crafts), stuffing, paper and bandages.

Game wise it can resolve the issue of accumulating clothes as well as the need to craft. It also adds a little bit more flavour, because it does mean something when you come across a character who is only wearing patched clothes, only pristine clothes, or clothes that are patched but really nicely.

Previous treads on this topic:

Clothing repair, got a bit incoherent This thread is 7 years old, and DF has changed quite a bit in terms of automating industries being quite a bit easier. The main issue is doubling down on the existing items without interfering with dwarf ownership or micromanaging.
Washing clothes... I think they already do that with the clean job these days.
Worn quality for stockpiles
A thread begging to remove wear and tear
Thread about clogs, mentioning repair
Dwarves shouldn't just drop tattered clothes on the ground when they realize these are tattered, because it is really dangerous.
Gambesons, mentioning clothing repair as well
Thread on items dwarves would want to own

Complete side note:

Did you know that there's no general clothing improvements thread? Like, no suggestions for Knitting/Crochetting/Lacemaking/Macramé/Haberdashery? I just find this very amusing given there's countless cooking and recipe threads I guess this is an indicator of which kind of skills most people here are, uh, dabbling in :p

[Splint]

+1. Well thought out, and something automated (and indeed necessary) that can fill the crafting need without needing dozens for workshops or tons of schedule micromanagement would be nice, plus it gives a good reason to jump start cloth production early. Would also be good for soldiers who are full-timers because while taking thier off-season breaks they can patch up their uniforms, which tend to wear freakishly fast during combat even if they aren't tanking the hits the rigid armor is.

Should make a small addendum that adamantine cannot be used for repair work, except for adamantine clothing. That's a level of stupid I don't think dwarves should be capable of even considering, due to the sheer difficulty of getting the stuff (likewise, semi-related, it really needs a tag or something to prevent its use in medicine.)

[Bumber]

Should make a small addendum that adamantine cannot be used for repair work, except for adamantine clothing. That's a level of stupid I don't think dwarves should be capable of even considering, due to the sheer difficulty of getting the stuff (likewise, semi-related, it really needs a tag or something to prevent its use in medicine.)

But they're just stupid enough to use it in hospitals?

[SixOfSpades]

Good, but there's potential scope here for way more things than just clothes. Weapons, armor, and especially tools should take damage/wear, and need regular repair/sharpening. There is no fluxing way that a Miner can use a regular old copper pick to tunnel through hundreds of tiles of granite, and after 40 years of use it's still good as new.

[Splint]

Good, but there's potential scope here for way more things than just clothes. Weapons, armor, and especially tools should take damage/wear, and need regular repair/sharpening. There is no fluxing way that a Miner can use a regular old copper pick to tunnel through hundreds of tiles of granite, and after 40 years of use it's still good as new.

That seems more like it'd be a job for the weapon or armorsmith. Gameplay aside, anyone can at least sort-of fix a rip in their pants (weather or not it'd hold for long is a different story...) Fixing things like picks, swords, breastplates, and such would require a bit more training to do without making the situation worse for the item in question.

Though I suppose whenever there's a slow time in work/training, units who need certain things fixed can go to a specialist for it - Basically Urist gets a job to give his axe to weaponsmith Bomrek, and since Bomrek isn't doing anything important, he gets the item and begins a repair task, assuming there's a forge to fix it at. If busy, then Bromrek can slot the repair task in between endless copper bolt orders.

Though when/if work zones are implemented I imagine at least with weapons and weapon-like tools, a grindstone anyone can use will suffice to restore non-whip weapons to a more usable condition (possibly at the expense of a quality level if sharpened poorly enough.)

[GoblinCookie]

This should not work infinitely. 

Recycling clothes down into waste cloth to be used for purposes like cleaning or stuffing mattresses for beds should also be a thing.  Such waste cloth should be usable in it's original unused state in order to repair clothing. 

Also mattresses for beds......

[therahedwig]

Yes, that is why there should be a limit to how many repairs can be done on a single piece of clothing, and clothing size can be used as an indicator of how many repairs there can be done. (So, a cloak or dress can have much more repairs done than a sock or underwear) In game this ensures there's still a point to a clothing industry, realistically, a piece of clothing becomes more difficult to repair the more patches you put on it.

Using only tattered clothing for repairs is both so that the tattered clothing gets consumed(and thus serves a way to reduce existing clothing items), and it should avoid usage of more important items, such as adamantine. If you don't want your dwarves to use adamantine clothing to repair, then why give it to them in the first place :p

Dealing with weapon and armour fixes is a bit more tricky. Typically, cleaning, sharpening and oiling weaponry were things that soldiers did themselves(and in the case of knights it is something they made their students do). I do think undenting a plate mail or fixing hammers would require a proffesional As well, sharpening works by removing metal, so here too repairs need to be tracked (As well as things like metal items losing their temper). It might even be easier to just say 'melt it down and remake the item' for weaponry to avoid micromanagement.

It might need a seperate thread, because armour and weaponry has a very different base material(metal, wood, bone), and that degrades in a very different way than leather and cloth do.

[SixOfSpades]

Dealing with weapon and armour fixes is a bit more tricky. Typically, cleaning, sharpening and oiling weaponry were things that soldiers did themselves(and in the case of knights it is something they made their students do). I do think undenting a plate mail or fixing hammers would require a proffesional As well, sharpening works by removing metal, so here too repairs need to be tracked (As well as things like metal items losing their temper). It might even be easier to just say 'melt it down and remake the item' for weaponry to avoid micromanagement.

     True, the care & maintenance of gear was usually left to the owners or their squires, in the same way, as you say, just about anyone can at least sort-of fix their torn pants. But in my opinion, the wear and damage on metal items deserves modeling just as much as cloth does, especially in a game with this much emphasis on mining, stone types, and real material properties. If you want a system that tracks the repairs applied to garments, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, let this system be applied to tools & armor as well, and let repeated repairs either lower the quality level of the item, and/or reduce the Melt return by a fraction of a bar.

     Wood also deserves consideration: Broken furniture should be reparable (in at least some cases), and if worse comes to worst, all wooden items could at least be used for firewood--although a "fractional log" system would need to be implemented for tiny things like wooden rings & amulets.

A repair will result in a repair modification on the item. . . .
This will fulfill a need to craft.

Mmm . . . close, but I've got to disagree with you there. Repair isn't crafting--yes, it's very similar, but there's no real creativity involved in the process. Yes, it's satisfying to restore something to good-as-new condition, but it's not the "I made this!" feeling of true creation. Boring old humans like you & me might be content with sewing a button back on, or polishing the rust off an old knife, but when you're surrounded by hundreds of dwarves sounding off "I made this!" with astonishing regularity, and occasionally jumping onto the fortress PA system to announce, "I MADE ☼THIS☼," simple item repair seems rather feeble in comparison. So while I agree that it should confer a small amount of training in the relevant skill, it shouldn't really fulfill the crafting need. I see it as more akin to taking care of one's possessions--keeping one's bedroom tidy, and workshop organized. Those dwarves who have the trait will be included to try to fix their gear themselves, while those who don't will just take it back to the shop. Or alternatively, perhaps the need itself should be split: The need to feel productive and useful (which even Hauling might satisfy, if they do enough of it), and the need to express creative originality.

[Starver]

Dwarves anyhow skilled in the crafting of clothes would of course do well in repairing, but may not consider the act a 'replacement' for an urge to craft.

Those lacking the ability may not do a good job of an attempt, and/or be far slower, but consider their end-result very satisfying.

(I know this runs contrary to how a need-to-craft is satisfied, somewhat. It could at least be a 'thought' level of happiness gained (or not, with 'felt forced to patch clothing rather than create a brand new item'), perhaps leaking over in Needs when the roll of the dice gives the highest level of repair-result?)

[therahedwig]

True, the care & maintenance of gear was usually left to the owners or their squires, in the same way, as you say, just about anyone can at least sort-of fix their torn pants. But in my opinion, the wear and damage on metal items deserves modeling just as much as cloth does, especially in a game with this much emphasis on mining, stone types, and real material properties. If you want a system that tracks the repairs applied to garments, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, let this system be applied to tools & armor as well, and let repeated repairs either lower the quality level of the item, and/or reduce the Melt return by a fraction of a bar.

I am pretty sure that weapon and armor damage is already in the game

A repair will result in a repair modification on the item. . . .
This will fulfill a need to craft.

Mmm . . . close, but I've got to disagree with you there. Repair isn't crafting--yes, it's very similar, but there's no real creativity involved in the process. Yes, it's satisfying to restore something to good-as-new condition, but it's not the "I made this!" feeling of true creation. Boring old humans like you & me might be content with sewing a button back on, or polishing the rust off an old knife, but when you're surrounded by hundreds of dwarves sounding off "I made this!" with astonishing regularity, and occasionally jumping onto the fortress PA system to announce, "I MADE ☼THIS☼," simple item repair seems rather feeble in comparison. So while I agree that it should confer a small amount of training in the relevant skill, it shouldn't really fulfill the crafting need. I see it as more akin to taking care of one's possessions--keeping one's bedroom tidy, and workshop organized. Those dwarves who have the trait will be included to try to fix their gear themselves, while those who don't will just take it back to the shop. Or alternatively, perhaps the need itself should be split: The need to feel productive and useful (which even Hauling might satisfy, if they do enough of it), and the need to express creative originality.

Ah, I guess this is different interpretations of what 'need to craft' means. I am pretty proficient in drawing/painting, 3d modeling, technical writing, programming and cooking, and novice in crochet and dabble in sewing and working with clay. For me, I get 'itchy fingers' after a while and then I need to do something with my hands, so I am interpreting Dwarves need to craft as that, and even simple fixes to clothes or furniture can give that kind of resolution for me. It is not really a 'I made something nice' desire, though having a nice result is always a plus (And this is especially important because if I overexert or burn out(unfocused in DF's terms), I am not able to finish an artwork of any kind regardless of how much I desire to). Fixing things also fulfill the desire for challenge in crafting as every fix is unique and requires careful consideration of how the material behaves, how the item is used, and how to fix the item in a way that makes it feel as if it was always meant to be that way. But maybe I am projecting too much?

For the latter part of your paragraph, being creative and practicing a craft are already different needs(ctrl+f for 'creative' and 'craft'): http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Need

[GoblinCookie]

Using only tattered clothing for repairs is both so that the tattered clothing gets consumed(and thus serves a way to reduce existing clothing items), and it should avoid usage of more important items, such as adamantine. If you don't want your dwarves to use adamantine clothing to repair, then why give it to them in the first place :p

Because the interface of the game is fiddly.

[Azerty]

Good, but there's potential scope here for way more things than just clothes. Weapons, armor, and especially tools should take damage/wear, and need regular repair/sharpening. There is no fluxing way that a Miner can use a regular old copper pick to tunnel through hundreds of tiles of granite, and after 40 years of use it's still good as new.

It could even make for a working economy, since dwarvew would have to often buy new stuff to replace.

[joaodosgrao]

That's a good idea, mostly regarding the damn huge problem of having clothes spread everywhere (I make 10 of each of one clothing material set I decide on the beginning of a fortress (I either make only silk, wool or plant fiber clothing. Except cloaks, which are always made of leather - so you might imagine the issues I have regarding fps when it comes down to clothing. To make matters worse, I usually have a huge shaft spanning basically the whole fort, leading into a magma pit. So there are issues when it comes down to cleanowned scattered/scattered x, since I have so many dump zones that I need to deactivate all of them so I can create one exclusively for old clothes dumping, lest I get a bunch of art defacement bad thought from my clothemakers)

Otherwise, things could be simple and we could create, say, a 3x3 zone that works as a "quantum stockpile" for tattered clothing. That way, you set this zone close to the trade depot, and voila. Whenever a dwarfs cloth gets tattered and there is a replacement, he drops by this zone and tosses the cloth piece in. Simple, clean and efficient.

Dwarf fortress desperately needs betters management tools implemented. Having a big fort is too much effort to administrate and keep things relatively tidy.

But enough rambling. I will give my two cents on how I would implement means to solve the "hasnt practiced a craft for too long problem".

Since we are getting into the big wait, it has already been discussed and, I might be mistaken, but workshop zones could be coming then.
A pretty easy way to implement this would be to create a "free crafting zone" for dwarves that start getting bored for being unable to practice a craft;
You place whichever workshops you desire in this zone, with determined materials, and whenever a dwarf desires to practice a craft, he automatically goes there and crafts something at the workshop of his preference, out of any available materials he prefers.

Also a zone for martial arts practice, with plenty of weapons for "common use" (a dwarf won't claim a weapon / armor he is using for practicing martial art in this zone, he will use it solely for satisfying the need)

I would also love to see guilds coming back.

Having a haulers guild, determining hauler zones... "I have 10 haulers in my guild, i need 2 haulers in this burrow here, 1 stone hauler and 1 minecart pusher. Whenever there are stones to be hauled or a minecart to be pushed, it is of highest priority to have people working there!"

And that would just be the tip of the iceberg.

Farmers guild "we have too many seeds! We want only X of this, Y of that. The rest, toss in the trade depot or wherever"
Commerciants guild "hey, we have requests for 3 diorite scepters, 2 native gold crowns, 3 iron earrings, etc" - updated monthly
Hunters guild "hey, I will have an apprentice. He will collect all non broken used bolts, rofl. Get rekt"
Cleaners guild "yo, keep shit clean, that is your priority - including the damn caverns"

I REALLY do hope Toady grows conscious of this and, since it is highly unlikely we will be seeing multithreading to help alleviate FPS issues in the near future, properly implements means of keeping a highly populated, extensive fortress, tidy without the necessity of tedious micromanagement regarding menial tasks to keep a fortress running and dwarves happy.

Sorry for the wall of text.
Cheers.

 

[GoblinCookie]

It could even make for a working economy, since dwarvew would have to often buy new stuff to replace.

Except that the buying part is quite unnecessary for a working economy.

[therahedwig]

Thinking it through though, I guess that while this deals with the clothes, it doesn't with all the amulets and rings they collect. But I suspect if/when gambling makes it into DF, those things make sure Dwarves have something else to gamble away but the clothes off their back :p