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[High_priest_of_Ru]

That's extremely strange... I have met people who didn't want to fight, but never experienced a situation where people would just run away from me by default. I get regularly attacked by wildlife, and goblins just run at me screaming.

That's really wierd

I have the same problem as the thread creator, I can kill dozens of civilians in a human village for example and the other villagers don't care at all and do absolutely nothing. They are not even mad at me and will still join me if I ask them to join me on my adventures. Is there a way to fix this or a mod that repairs this? 

"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:

Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SHIELD:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:ARMOR:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:AXE:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SWORD:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MACE:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:HAMMER:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SPEAR:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:CROSSBOW:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:PIKE:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WHIP:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BOW:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BLOWGUN:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:DAGGER:5]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:5]

Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SHIELD:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:AXE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SWORD:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MACE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:HAMMER:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SPEAR:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:CROSSBOW:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:PIKE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WHIP:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BOW:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BLOWGUN:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:DAGGER:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:9]
[NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:9]

Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

no discipline, because kobolds are cowardly lore-wise
[NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:AXE:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SWORD:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MACE:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:HAMMER:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SPEAR:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:CROSSBOW:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:PIKE:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WHIP:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BOW:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BLOWGUN:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:DAGGER:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:10]
[NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:10]

You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.
Edit, for context:: 5 = Proficient; 9 = Professional; 10 = Accomplished.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's, for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.

This advice works quite good. Still you can meet very stupid situation, but enemies at least fight with us)

[JesterHell696]

Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

Every situation after Toady's look at the problem will be better than now. We can have different opinions about ideal one - your is a bit casual, mine is a bit hardcore, but both looks satisfying for me. And current situation is not.

[Khorinis]

Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.

I get what you mean about a moral system being more realistic but this really is not the issue here. The problem is that villagers don't react at all when you kill their mates right in front of them and even say stuff like "good to see you", let alone fight back. Maybe the old system wasn't realistic but certainly more realistic then the buggy one we got now and it was certainly a lot more engaging when you had to actually deal with consequences for killing or attacking someone.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.

I get what you mean about a moral system being more realistic but this really is not the issue here. The problem is that villagers don't react at all when you kill their mates right in front of them and even say stuff like "good to see you", let alone fight back. Maybe the old system wasn't realistic but certainly more realistic then the buggy one we got now and it was certainly a lot more engaging when you had to actually deal with consequences for killing or attacking someone.

Even Grandmaster Yoda couldn't say better)

[Robsoie]

Yes, that's what breaks the fun of making the world believable, sure 34.11 wasn't perfect but indeed most NPC had much more believable reactions.

As said apparently since 40.xx NPC are aware of your level of skills even when you start the game (despite there's no rumour about your actions), and they compare the difference with their very low skills , meaning it is very likely playing a big role in the lack of believable reaction to being attacked (walking in a castle murdering a lord in front of everyone and no guard gives a care because your single guy have a higher skill than each guard individually, despite the bunch of guard together would just butcher you ?)

In 34.11 when you faced by example a bandit leader, you knew you were in for the fight of your life even with high skill, but since 40.xx bandit leaders are all push over. The same you don't meet anymore gobs or etc that are weapon masters.

I wonder if that apparent huge "nerf" to their skills isn't reflecting too on their followers "morale", explaining why you walk in a bandit hidden camp in complete impunity , murder each of them individually without a problem or a reaction, while it felt like a most epic adventure to enter in a bandit hideout in 34.11

[Rumrusher]

Probably a mix of the citizens aren't really historically known so their names aren't remembered which make any actions done to them is a minor tidbit gossip like a bar fight gone horribly wrong.
hell they don't really have families outside of a few nobles and wandering groups so any ties or relationships given from any the peasants getting slaughter isn't a pip.
so basically it seems like df has loads of layered mechanics but due to toady trying to fill out a large town with out killing folks pcs with legend mode bloat we ended up with historically null fodder peasants that shuffle around and twiddle their thumbs until they get historically known enough to care about the well being of one another.

there also a chance one could shuffle around the human town ethics and laws to make murder a serious matter and outright attack folks... or just give them the attack neutral groups ethics and just constantly be hounded and attacked when you enter the town.

my personal opinion on this is : man I am Not that bloodthirsty so advmode seem decent but the major problem I have with it is you can't just scatter peasants to different lands like the old (even older) days where at least now pillaging is kinda stuck to Fort mode until someone dfhacks it in to advmode or toady adds an option to just raze a town for adventurers.

[Robsoie]

Another alternative is turning up everyone craziness dial in a DF world to eleven with a mini mod like this one
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152661.0

That make people (and animals too because without that it wouldn't be up to eleven) extremely "specist" and truly hate to violent death anything and anyone belonging to a different specie, regardless if they're on the same faction or if they're much more powerful than themselves.

A good way to re-enact the battle at the Cave of Caerbannog against its monstrous beast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aSjlyIBAk

Of course a mini mod for adventurers that seek more insanity than immersion.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

Another alternative is turning up everyone craziness dial in a DF world to eleven with a mini mod like this one
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152661.0

That make people (and animals too because without that it wouldn't be up to eleven) extremely "specist" and truly hate to violent death anything and anyone belonging to a different specie, regardless if they're on the same faction or if they're much more powerful than themselves.

A good way to re-enact the battle at the Cave of Caerbannog against its monstrous beast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aSjlyIBAk

Of course a mini mod for adventurers that seek more insanity than immersion.

Thanks) I am always using such MODs, especially in TES game series. That feeling of instant fight is wonderful!)

P. S. I consider this as just a substitute of complete system of in-game interactions. If we're lacking realistic fight, let's set this world in fire of endless fight.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

Probably a mix of the citizens aren't really historically known so their names aren't remembered which make any actions done to them is a minor tidbit gossip like a bar fight gone horribly wrong.
hell they don't really have families outside of a few nobles and wandering groups so any ties or relationships given from any the peasants getting slaughter isn't a pip.
so basically it seems like df has loads of layered mechanics but due to toady trying to fill out a large town with out killing folks pcs with legend mode bloat we ended up with historically null fodder peasants that shuffle around and twiddle their thumbs until they get historically known enough to care about the well being of one another.

there also a chance one could shuffle around the human town ethics and laws to make murder a serious matter and outright attack folks... or just give them the attack neutral groups ethics and just constantly be hounded and attacked when you enter the town.

my personal opinion on this is : man I am Not that bloodthirsty so advmode seem decent but the major problem I have with it is you can't just scatter peasants to different lands like the old (even older) days where at least now pillaging is kinda stuck to Fort mode until someone dfhacks it in to advmode or toady adds an option to just raze a town for adventurers.

Probably through menu of claiming, I agree. Claiming the attempt to enslave will probably a reason to unite and rejoin in fight for helpless site dwellers.

Blood is precious. Feel this smell and join bloodbath's chorus!)

[Rumrusher]

so messing around with the human site's ethics to make everything required lead to wandering into this scene where everyone fighting each other.
like to note these humans also consume anything and anyone if they die in worldgen so loads of dead livestock then a small bout of sapient consumption if you read legends.

Code: [Select]

[ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TREASON:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:LYING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:VANDALISM:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TRESPASSING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:THEFT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:ASSAULT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:SLAVERY:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:REQUIRED]
so far if you want a world where military folks slaughter their own peasants and towns are ransacked on start go for it.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

so far if you want a world where military folks slaughter their own peasants and towns are ransacked on start go for it.

Updated the main topic, thanks. Very interesting decision. Rude and straight... I like it)

[PlumpHelmetMan]

My experience with adventure mode in the latest release has been more-or-less a middle ground. I'd agree that there is a definite lack of immersion currently and numerous bugs that need to be addressed, but I don't find the NPCs to be completely passive robots either. Of course many of you are veterans compared to me, so whaddo I know? Maybe I just have nothing to compare the current battle system to since I started playing with 43.05.
 
Anyway, considering how much the next release is focusing on adventure mode I'm feeling optimistic that some of these issues might be addressed sooner rather than later.

[High_priest_of_Ru]

My experience with adventure mode in the latest release has been more-or-less a middle ground. I'd agree that there is a definite lack of immersion currently and numerous bugs that need to be addressed, but I don't find the NPCs to be completely passive robots either. Of course many of you are veterans compared to me, so whaddo I know? Maybe I just have nothing to compare the current battle system to since I started playing with 43.05.
 
Anyway, considering how much the next release is focusing on adventure mode I'm feeling optimistic that some of these issues might be addressed sooner rather than later.

NPC can speak as not a robots, and trying to move under complex algorithms, but their fight is a very small piece compared to what it was.

Just try to download last version of 34, generate small world, take quest on killing bandits and go to the camp on your map. It will take only about 5 minutes of your time to die in this fight (with downloading and worldgen ) and understand, how fight must be:)
Trust me, it will be one of the hardest quests you ever chosen if you will attack bandit camp in 34 without armor and companions.

P.S. That's why we're seeking another opportunities. New AI can bring some comfort to player... But its unrealistic and casual look is alien for us.

P.P.S. Yes, we can be optimistic. And now we got (and still are getting) some pieces of code which will allow us to repair even badly moraled version through raws, even if Toady will miss this problem. For everyone's taste - from little repair to endless fight through some intermediate stages.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I'll check .34 out, thanks for the info. Certainly curious to see how the battle system's changed.