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[Imic]

The Nords are fighting a civil war over their tradition of worshiping a Breton who claimed he was an Imperial

We need a skyrim armchair general thread just for that argument.

Here you are.

For those who don’t know, in ES5: Skyrim, the Game world is divided into two factions, the Stormcloaks, and the Imperials. The Imperials have been in charge of Skyrim for a long time, and Skyrim has changed over time with the Imperial rule. Following a huge war with Elven Nazi Germany, the Empire is weak, so the Thalmor release a brainwashed double agent, Ulfric Stormcloak, to go and stir up some chaos. Only issue is, Ulfric really hates the Elves, so he goes completely rogue and possibly mental as well, and gathers up half the country in rebellion against the Imperials, who are weak and falling apart.

The last thing to note is that the traditions that the nords are fighting the Imperials to protect are Imperial traditions that the Nords have come to accept over time, and their patron god is actually neither a Nord or an Imperial, but is in fact a Breton from the most far flung country in the world. It’s complicated as to how he became a god, but he cheated. Meanwhile, the Imperials are kow-towing to the Elven Nazis who curbstomped them and want to get rid of the worship of the Nordic patron god for religious, world ending, and racist reasons.
It’s very complicated.

Somehow, I feel like I’m going to regret making this thread.

[Dorsidwarf]

On the one hand the Imperials are basically letting a foreign and malicious entity trample all over the long-lived customs and religion of the one of the oldest and most loyal provinces of the Empire, but on the other hand they dont really have a choice and are willing to bargain just about anything and everything in order to keep the Thalmor at bay while they recover their strength from the Great War.

Ultimately the Stormcloaks are (unknowingly) putting the safety of all of creation at risk with their little rebellion - and considering that as several NPCs say, the ban on Talos-worship was barely enforced before Imported Terrorist Stormcloak started stirring the pot (the very first time you go into Whiterun, the neutral city, the first memorable NPC you're likely to meet is proselytising openly on the streets for Talos), it seems likely that the rebellion has made matters worse for its own main cause, not better.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I mean Ulfric Stormcloak is basically the Lenin of Nords--a Thalmor Sleeper Agent specifically empowered after capture, radicalization, and release to destabilize the region and prevent the Empire from administrating it effectively. Though the Thalmor dossier specifically notes that a Stormcloack victory in the region is ALSO to be avoided (I assume they fear entering a second great war against a militarily-weakened, but economically-recovered Empire and a nascent Nord powerhouse.)

As for the white-gold concordat, it's a sham. Neither side has any intention of keeping the peace as soon as one believes it's got the edge over the other, it is, at best, an Aldmeri Dominion-friendly ceasefire. It's literally only a bid for time for both sides to regain the strength of their armies. The Empire took some hard hits to be sure and even had to release Hammerfell as a province (although it's localized conflict with the Dominion ended up forcing the Thalmor out of the province entirely), but it's still in a defensible position--and with an economic upturn under Titus Mede II, the revitalization of the legions, and what appears to be a considerable strengthening of the Empire's OWN secret services (in opposition to the Thalmor's own), they're locked in what the wiki accurately describes as a Cold War.

In a sense, Hammerfell and Skyrim as independent nations could be even more dangerous as allies to the Empire than as subjects, as their ability to centralize their respective regions even further would probably lead to even larger (and more diverse) armies arrayed against the Aldmeri Dominion.

Even if Skyrim broke free a province and did NOT come to the aid of the Empire, it's inevitable designs on Morrowind would probably create a rich, powerful, Anti-Elf state that is incredibly difficult to invade directly due to its geography.

EDIT: As for armchair general-ing. Without the support of the Dragonborn, the Empire's numbers and regional resources would almost assuredly win out. Even Ulfric's allies openly distrust him if questioned far enough, and the Empire has already begin to execute it's plan to capture Windhelm by the start of the game. Also relevant, Whiterun is the only hold to remain independent, but Ulfric's aggression causes Balgruuf to side with the Empire even without the Dragoborn.

EDIT: And we do also witness the Thalmor taking it the underequipped Nords from time to time as well (under their right to persecute Talos worshippers).

[Dorsidwarf]

Oh yeah I totally forgot that the Nords historically regard Morrowind as their stomping grounds - and now that Vivec is dead theres no divine intervention to save the crippled Houses from a theoretical new Nord invasion

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Oh yeah I totally forgot that the Nords historically regard Morrowind as their stomping grounds - and now that Vivec is dead theres no divine intervention to save the crippled Houses from a theoretical new Nord invasion

They need someone to provided that sweet sweet free elf-labor for their... consumer goods? (Most likely mining operations actually)

EDIT: Also now that I think about it, it's hard to say what the Assassination of Titus Mede II means for all this info

[IronyOwl]

For those who don’t know, in ES5: Skyrim, the Game world is divided into two factions, the Stormcloaks, and the Imperials. The Imperials have been in charge of Skyrim for a long time, and Skyrim has changed over time with the Imperial rule. Following a huge war with Elven Nazi Germany, the Empire is weak, so the Thalmor release a brainwashed double agent, Ulfric Stormcloak, to go and stir up some chaos. Only issue is, Ulfric really hates the Elves, so he goes completely rogue and possibly mental as well, and gathers up half the country in rebellion against the Imperials, who are weak and falling apart.

I mean Ulfric Stormcloak is basically the Lenin of Nords--a Thalmor Sleeper Agent specifically empowered after capture, radicalization, and release to destabilize the region and prevent the Empire from administrating it effectively. Though the Thalmor dossier specifically notes that a Stormcloack victory in the region is ALSO to be avoided (I assume they fear entering a second great war against a militarily-weakened, but economically-recovered Empire and a nascent Nord powerhouse.)

He's not brainwashed and he's not a double sleeper agent. Being referred to as "an asset" in a Thalmor document does not mean he's directly reporting to the High Nazi Elf King for orders, it means they think he's valuable.

Here's the infamous Thalmor Dossier on him that everyone gets this idea from:

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

At no point do they claim to have ordered him to go weaken the empire, mention that he's "gone rogue and possibly mental", claim he will awaken to their orders upon being given the code phrase, or express dismay at not realizing he hated elves so much.

What they do mention is that:
-They made him believe he'd betrayed the empire by breaking to torture
-He was in some manner useful to them- and remember, these are spies, so that could be anything from doing their bidding under threat of blackmail to getting riled up about Talos by their smug faces
-The elves value the Markarth Incident, eg the catalyst for the civil war
-The Markarth Incident was also when he told the elves to fuck off and stopped doing whatever useful things he was doing when a Thalmor agent showed up
-The elves value the indecisiveness of the civil war; either side winning is bad for their aims (though not necessarily equally bad)

Note that he ceased being directly approachable immediately upon freeing a city and reinstating Talos worship, and his utility in the war is incidental. The obvious takeaway from thinking Ulfric is a double agent would be that a Stormcloak victory serves the elves. The obvious takeaway from the dossier is that a Stormcloak victory would result in him continuing to tell the elves to fuck off and ceasing to weaken both Skyrim and the Empire.

The last thing to note is that the traditions that the nords are fighting the Imperials to protect are Imperial traditions that the Nords have come to accept over time, and their patron god is actually neither a Nord or an Imperial, but is in fact a Breton from the most far flung country in the world. It’s complicated as to how he became a god, but he cheated. Meanwhile, the Imperials are kow-towing to the Elven Nazis who curbstomped them and want to get rid of the worship of the Nordic patron god for religious, world ending, and racist reasons.
It’s very complicated.

Somehow, I feel like I’m going to regret making this thread.

I don't think the history of Talos is relevant so much as the speculation regarding why the elves want him gone. Is he getting in the way of the end of the world? Is he serving as a unifying religious icon for humanity? Does letting humans worship a human god just stick in their craw despite having no practical effect whatsoever?

The obvious problem is that every aspect gets extremely speculative extremely quickly, but it's a vital, core issue to figuring out the "right" answer.

Ultimately the Stormcloaks are (unknowingly) putting the safety of all of creation at risk with their little rebellion - and considering that as several NPCs say, the ban on Talos-worship was barely enforced before Imported Terrorist Stormcloak started stirring the pot (the very first time you go into Whiterun, the neutral city, the first memorable NPC you're likely to meet is proselytising openly on the streets for Talos), it seems likely that the rebellion has made matters worse for its own main cause, not better.

Hammerfell already told the elves to go fuck themselves, the empire refused to help, and they beat them back anyway. It's likely that a collection of allied kingdoms would be stronger against the Thalmor than the current, admittedly-declining empire, especially now that the empire is beholden to the treaty while the others aren't.

It's definitely true that the Thalmor are looking for an excuse to enforce the treaty personally, but we know it's being at least somewhat enforced- there's no shrines in temples, no official priests, and the common folk mention eight bless you a lot. I don't think letting the issue rest would have been okay for Talos worship as anything but a fringe cult.

EDIT: As for armchair general-ing. Without the support of the Dragonborn, the Empire's numbers and regional resources would almost assuredly win out. Even Ulfric's allies openly distrust him if questioned far enough, and the Empire has already begin to execute it's plan to capture Windhelm by the start of the game. Also relevant, Whiterun is the only hold to remain independent, but Ulfric's aggression causes Balgruuf to side with the Empire even without the Dragoborn.

Also they uh, sort of captured the leader of the whole thing by the time you arrived, even though the elves had designs to spring him.

Then again, maybe if nature took its course and he were martyred, someone less abrasive would have taken over, used the name without the baggage, and turned the tide.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

In general, this is a difficult period of time to speculate on, especially without anything happening AFTER these events with which to base our answers on.

But here's this: Why wait until Titus Mede had already reformed the Empire out of the Stormcrown Interregnum "Warring States" period to attack? The Empire exists in its reincarnated form for nearly 150 years before The Great War begins.

The Thalmor had assassinated High Chancellor Ocato shortly after the Oblivion Crisis, which DID send the Empire into its death-spiral, but would it perhaps be not more destructive to infiltrate his budding administration, or at least keep it afloat--as he proved a controversial figure anyhow? And surely, despite his loyalty to the idea of the Empire, a High Elf Emperor would have been more sympathetic to the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion than a Mannish one?

EDIT: I suppose during the Interregnum, the Dominion wrested control of everything South of Cyrodiil, but still... the bulk of the legions were Men, or so it seemed in the games.

[IronyOwl]

In general, this is a difficult period of time to speculate on, especially without anything happening AFTER these events with which to base our answers on.

But here's this: Why wait until Titus Mede had already reformed the Empire out of the Stormcrown Interregnum "Warring States" period to attack? The Empire exists in its reincarnated form for nearly 150 years before The Great War begins.

I assume they were consolidating their own power/control. Existing isn't the same as being ready and willing to attack the mightiest force on the continent, and they're radicals so they probably had a lot of purging/convincing to do.

The Thalmor had assassinated High Chancellor Ocato shortly after the Oblivion Crisis, which DID send the Empire into its death-spiral, but would it perhaps be not more destructive to infiltrate his budding administration, or at least keep it afloat--as he proved a controversial figure anyhow? And surely, despite his loyalty to the idea of the Empire, a High Elf Emperor would have been more sympathetic to the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion than a Mannish one?

EDIT: I suppose during the Interregnum, the Dominion wrested control of everything South of Cyrodiil, but still... the bulk of the legions were Men, or so it seemed in the games.

Ocato's elfness was what made him so dangerous. He knew what the Thalmor were up to and what they were capable of, and were he left in charge would have been a major obstacle to forming the Dominion, let alone crippling the empire. Remember, they were dangerous extremists even in their high elf homeland surrounded entirely by high elves.

[Imic]

The whole thing is very, very messy, since the Thalmor took aaages to take control of all the high Elves, and they had to murder War veterans to get as far as they did. They don’t like Talos, because Talos is a Human, and they believe that Elves were once gods and that stinky Humans are keeping them from being truly immortal again, so they ban the worship of Talos, which is basically their original Causus Belli, at least on paper, since that clearly didn’t even last to them actually declaring war, at which point they gave up on all reason and just murdered every Imperial agent in their lands.
I’m on the Empire’s side, because no matter what the paper says about how they don’t want the Stormcloaks os the Imperials winning, that was clearly just put there by the devs so they’d appear as neutral to the player base. Regardless of who’s side you’re on, a united Empire is stronger than two seperate nations that hate each other for one sided, hypocritical reasons, and would have a far, far better chance of fighting the Dominion.

[Egan_BW]

Huh. I'll ptw this.

[Madman198237]

PTW

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Regardless of who’s side you’re on, a united Empire is stronger than two seperate nations that hate each other for one sided, hypocritical reasons, and would have a far, far better chance of fighting the Dominion.

IDK. I mean, this is probably in part due to the limiting nature of videogames, but even in Morrowind and Oblivion, the Empire's legions seems stretched thin across the provinces. I mean, this is even at it's height as an economic powerhouse--even Cyrodiil appears to be poorly protected. Take Skyrim for example, the combined forces of all the holds pretty handily outmans the single Imperial Legion in the area. Again, probably just that you can't have 10000 legionnaires from a technical stand point, but the fact remains that the observed decentralization of the Empire has directly led to a smaller number/size of Imperial Legions.

Although mostly speculative, take for example the releasing of Hammerfell as a province. Despite being only a fraction of the Empire's strength in theory they perform as well, if not better against the Aldmeri Dominion than the Empire fighting in its richest province with the bulk of its army. TBF, Titus Mede DOES allow/order most of the legionaries in Hammerfell at the time to renounce their oaths of loyalty to be able to fight as non-Empire-affiliated combatants. Again, a lot of factors, but something tells me that even under the Mede dynasty, the Empire is woefully inefficient in it's administration of the provinces--probably in part to the long history of unrest in everywhere that isn't Cyrodiil (and then also Cyrodiil after the Oblivion Crisis). It's like having every province's autonomy at 100% in EUIV--it just becomes impossible to levy enough troops without violence after a certain point.

And besides, would it not be more of an England--USA relationship? Certainly they WOULD hate each other, but if anything the Nords (especially under Ulfric and heirs) would be looking for revenge on the Elves, no? An alliance of convenience would suit the Empire and Skyrim at that point.

[wierd]

At one point in the distant past, I was a regular at the bethesda forums, and had a chat with Micheal Kirkbride.  As such, this is insightful, but totally not officially canonical.


The elves of the aldmeri dominion are more than just 'racist' against the races of men.  They want them to not exist, because they consider the races of men to be products of Lorkan, and strongly aligned with that dead, treacherous god.  (EG, they are remaining traces of the trickster that caused their race to be mortal.) 

There is an allusion to this in the in-game lore, about how the elven pantheons consider the creation of the mundus to be a "Painful fracturing from the divine."

Since "mind-share" seems to have a subtle, but REAL influence over the magical nature of creation (eg, "Mythopoeic forces") and the races of men are so staunchly "pro-lorkan" in their perception of the world, the complete and total extermination of all of the races of men is *required* for the aldmeri dominion to complete its goals of returning mythic aldmeris. *ALL TRACES* of lorkan and his trickery must be expunged, in order for a mythic transformation to occur that will undo the death of the aedric pantheon. Since Talos is really just a "forcibly mantled" manifestation of Lorkan's empty spot in the mythic architecture of the universe, it is only natural that the Aldmeri dominion finds the very idea of his existence, and especially-- his worship--- extremely repugnant. 

Elves are very long-lived already, and we are talking a group that fancies itself becoming immortal.  As such, they are willing to take the "long game" approach.  This is why they are perfectly happy with causing the empire to fracture apart. It isolates all the races of men into easily picked off groups, and by the time they wise up to this fact, it will be too late for them to consolidate power and resist.  (EG, why would the sons of Skyrim go and help the Redguards-- et al.)

It is important to remember that the empire is a mythic manifestation of mundus itself, and that it has a ruler that is of one of the races of men is mythically significant-- as is the shape and layout of the capital of the empire, which is laid out in representation of the arubis itself.  The subversion of all races to the will of the empire is a myth-echo of the subversion of all the aedric spheres to the governance of lorkan, who bound them together into the mortal plane, Mundus.

The rebellion of the aldmeri dominion against the empire is thus a myth-echo of the rebellion of the aedra against lorkan; The most infamous story being that of how Auri-El reached into Lorkan's body "with more than hands" and ripped his heart out for his part in binding them so.  Recall however, how the heart mocked them, saying that they could not destroy it, nor lorkan and keep what they had made, for the world was made to suit the wishes of the heart itself. ("one was made to suit the other.") This caused complete moral breakdown of the aedric armies, who stopped their war against men at that time.--- There is a difference here, in that the elves are insane, and are more than willing to end the world, and themselves, to accomplish what they seek, which is a dissolution of the mundus, and a return of the grey maybe.  This echo-narrative has been repeated several times, and always results in the failure of the elven nations. (the most recent was the ayleid wars of the pre-first era.)

It is not surprising that this is happening at exactly the time that the world-eater appears, as it is a mythic manifestation of the world trying to remake itself.
(See also, all the myths concerning the world-eater. In each and every one, he is defeated by some machination. Be it the redguard one, Statkal (oblig: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Satakal) where the trickster god creates a false-world from the shed skin, which knows only its own hunger-- and the mortal spirits dwelling on that skin need to learn how to survive that hunger on their own--) or any of the others.  His appearance and defeat are mythically proscribed. Even the formation of the Aedra themselves from the possibilities of the mythic aurbis follows this pattern.

Spoiler: related reference from Varieties of Faith (click to show/hide)

Ruptga (Tall Papa): Chief deity of the Yokudan pantheon. Ruptga, more commonly 'Tall Papa', was the first god to figure out how to survive the Hunger of Satakal. Following his lead, the other gods learned the 'Walkabout', or a process by which they can persist beyond one lifetime. Tall Papa set the stars in the sky to show lesser spirits how to do this, too. When there were too many spirits to keep track of, though, Ruptga created a helper out the dead skin of past worlds. This helper is Sep (see below), who later creates the world of mortals.

Satakal (The Worldskin): Yokudan god of everything. A fusion of the concepts of Anu and Padomay. Basically, Satakal is much like the Nordic Alduin, who destroys one world to begin the next. In Yokudan mythology, Satakal had done (and still does) this many times over, a cycle which prompted the birth of spirits that could survive the transition. These spirits ultimately become the Yokudan pantheon. Popular god of the Alik'r nomads.

The old empire is likely to fail miserably.  The elves will gain power, both militarily and politically, and just when they are about to strike their final blow, (by destroying all the races of men, and doing their own version of the 'tower dance') the myth echo of the first creation will resound, their plans will fail, the races of men will unite and rebel against them, and use their symbols of power to once again forge an empire of myth and magic seated in Tamriel.  (this is exactly what happened the LAST time-- See also, St. Alicia. See also, Talos and the stompy robot Numidium, See also, Nordic victory over the Dwemer, who created the Numidium.)

The elves have to create the new mythic construct (White-Gold tower, Numidium, etc), and the races of men must capture it.

Until that happens, the world-cycle has not gone full circle.

I would expect the next major game in the series to focus on that necessary plot.

Kirkbride waxed quite philosphical on this process of mythic re-creation, and intimated that the "convention" that the aedra were a part of, encompasses not just the known timeline, but *ALL* timelines, and all outcomes, which is why the mocking of the heart against Auri-El has such a profound tone.  Literally all possible spirits were present at the "convention."

[Imic]

Well, time for speculation.
Bethesda Softwork’s parent company, Zenimax, recently filed for a patent for the name ‘Redfall’. This es two previous Elder Scrolls games, Redguard and Daggerfall, set in Hammerfell and High Rock*, respectively. What this might entail is that it could be set in both High rock and Hammerfell*. From what you said, though, this could make a lot of sense, since the oldest structure in the world, the Direnni tower, is located on an island between the two. Add to this mix that High rock is an Imperial nation, but the people there are a race of half elves, and that Hammerfell is an independant nation o fboth, and you could potentially have an extrrpemely compelling story, since the Elves may use the Direnni tower to construct a new world editor, only to be finally defeated in an alliance between the Empire, the Redguards, the Nords, the Bretons, and all the other mini races of Men in an epic battle to the death.
This is tired, half asleep speculation, but it might hold ground.

*Daggerfall was set in High rock and Hammerfell, but I’m overlooking that.

[Dorsidwarf]

I do wonder what the new game is going to make of the Skyrim Civil War, actually. Its such a major event that there's no way it can just be glossed over - so presumably the writers are going to have to pick a side and say "they won", which is something game writers hate doing in sequels to games with player choices