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Author Topic: They Who Dare: The Empire of Schwarzes Holz - Kaiserliche Luftjäger  (Read 22544 times)

The Ensorceler

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Budget Plan: Rain Of Daggers

Pay maintenance for Schurk, Rote and Gold squadrons. (3x1 PP)
Outfit Schurk, Rote and Gold squadrons with GL-11 Donnerkanone machineguns by way of Förden Mounts. (3x1 PP)
An additional set of Donnerkanones will be purchased, since there is no other way to spend 1 PP right now. (1x1 PP)
Total PP spent 7/7

Quote from: Budget Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (1) The Ensorceler
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 11:03:35 pm by The Ensorceler »
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dgr11897

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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (2) The Ensorceler, DGR
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The_Two_Eternities

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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (3)The Ensorceler, DGR, TTE
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177472.0
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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (4)The Ensorceler, DGR, TTE, Stabby
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The Ensorceler

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Addendum: Orders to finish the dang turn properly

All squadrons are to keep to their own front, no reassignments.
Pilots in Schurke, Rote and Gold squadrons are to scout ground activity behind enemy lines as before, but also to use their new machineguns to engage in skirmishes when possible. To stay ready for this, planes are never to fly alone. At a minimum pilots will stay with their wingman or, if their wingman is shot down to join as a third with an intact pair or join another singleton to form a new pair.

Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (3) DGR, TTE, Stabby
Rain Of Daggers + Danged Addendum (1) The Ensorceler
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 08:23:07 pm by The Ensorceler »
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Madman198237

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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (3) DGR, TTE, Stabby
Rain Of Daggers + Danged Addendum (2) The Ensorceler, Madman
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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (2) DGR, TTE
Rain Of Daggers + Danged Addendum (3) The Ensorceler, Madman, Stabby
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Long Live Arst- United Forenia!
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Contemplate why we have a sociopathic necrophiliac RAPIST sadomasochist bipolar monster in our ranks, also find some cheese.

The_Two_Eternities

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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (1) DGR
Rain Of Daggers + Danged Addendum (4) The Ensorceler, Madman. Stabby, TTE
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177472.0
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TheFantasticMsFox

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Quote from: Deployment Votes
Rain Of Daggers: (1) DGR
Rain Of Daggers + Danged Addendum (5) The Ensorceler, Madman. Stabby, TTE, TFF
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Thanik

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Hey everyone! Just got back from Italy and thought I'd pitch in before the strategy phase ended. I see y'all forgot about the emblem contest, so I kind of decided to make an entry while I still had time.

Let's see if I can summarize everything we want.

First off, the contest entries come in a few varieties, primarily in the form of various options between which you can choose accordingly. There's a few, but I'll make the one a few people already expressed interest in on Discord a standalone package in the summarized votebox. Without further adieu, here they are:

Quote from: Contest Entries
National Flag Proposals:

Spoiler: Two-Part Divided (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Singular Tricolor (click to show/hide)

Kaiserliche Luftjäger / Komitee der Luftfahrt Emblem Proposals:

1. Airforce Emblem
Spoiler: Thanik (click to show/hide)
2. Roundel
Spoiler: Simplest, "Moth Eye" (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Detailed Chevrons (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Simple Crowned (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Simple Chevrons (click to show/hide)

I am thus proposing 'Imperial Glory' to fit what a few people in the discord have expressed support for.

Spoiler: Vote 'Imperial Glory' (click to show/hide)

I'm keeping the other options up there, so people can add them as they're voted for. I'll link 'Imperial Glory' to this post so people can see what other options are on the table in terms of my own contribution.

As for the strategy vote, I'd want to bank the 1 PP instead of spend it on MGs we're not going to use right now. Joe has clarified that this is not possible. Frick. While I'd link to the individual plans, the main one's kind of broken up, so we'll have to work on our structuring in the future. As for right now?

Here's a (shameful attempt at a) unified votebox for all our decisions:
Quote from: Votebox
Strategy Phase:

Plans:

Rain Of Daggers & Addendum (5): The Ensorceler, Madman, Stabby, TFF, Thanik
RoDA & Bank (1): Thanik

Emblems:

Imperial Glory (3): Thanik, Madman (via Discord), TFF (via Discord)
Chevrons and Arc, Thin (2): The Ensorceler, Stabby

Edit: added Madman because he's a lazy bum. :P
Edit 2: Y'all have to actually vote so I don't look like I'm committing voting fraud people.
Edit 3: Added the Thin Chevron and Arc so we have a visual representation of a majority and so we can get moving.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 05:00:04 am by Thanik »
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The Ensorceler

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Quote from: Emblem Votes
(1): TTE
Spoiler: Gremlin Head (click to show/hide)
:
Spoiler: Chevrons and Arc, Thin (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Associated Roundel (click to show/hide)
(4)(3): The Ensorceler, Thanik, Stabby, TFF
Spoiler: Associated Roundel (click to show/hide)
(1): The Ensorceler
Winged Laughing Skull(no image yet) (1): Madman(just in case somebody makes one)

Quote from: Airforce Name Votes
Imperial Air Force(1): TTE
Kaiserliche Komitee der Luftfahrt(2): The Ensorceler, Thanik
Kaiserliche Luftfahrtkomitee:
Kaiserliche Luftjäger(3): Madman, Stabby, TFF

Here are the previous votes, minus the Thanik vote for the older emblem.
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piratejoe

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Design Phase, Late Summer 1915

The army general on the western front commanding the soldiers fighting along the Sprungburg-Gwag du Road is pleased with gains made as a result of better intelligence, but feels that it is a bit lacking, meanwhile the general ordering soldiers on the Nachtburg-Bont Gwyn Road in the central front requests for more aircraft to deal with the enemy's own

High command has increased your budget by 2 PP, as the country devotes more factories to war. In addition, you have an extra 2 PP for this turn, as a result of having more better insignias.

Spoiler: Projects (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Designs and Technology (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Squadrons (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Equipment (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Statistics (click to show/hide)
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Thanik

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Re: They Who Dare: The Empire of Schwarzes Holz - Kaiserliche Luftjäger
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2018, 01:49:06 pm »

Well, that went reasonably well. At least given our starting position.

I think we'll see a swap from both sides this turn to make sure we're both caught up with the other. Within reason, we'd want to spend a die on the engine (so we get it soon-ish) and contemplate using a rush die on it, which we could fix with a revision or just spend a revision upgrading the engine.

Other than that, I'd want to start work on an airframe - preferably a fighter - with which we can use the new engine to a maximum and push the envelope on our tech a bit. I do hope passive tech upgrades are a thing, otherwise, we'll be stuck with basic monoplane experience etc. for a while by virtue of just needing the configuration for a while and so the game remains relatively thematic.

I propose that this turn, we start work on a fighter airframe, and invest in the engine while revising the Motte to remain competitive until the new fighter's out.

The list of features we'd want in general is exhaustive, including flight controls, tracers, better aerodynamics in general (or as much as we can get out of the damn thing), jerry-rigged bomb hardpoints, sights... You get the picture.

I thus propose the following aircraft.

Gleichedecker (Same-plane) (G.I)
Doppledecker (Double-plane / Biplane) (D.I)
Zweindecker (Two-plane) (Zw.I)
Verdrängeindecker (Offset-plane) (VD.I)
--- Pick one of these and change the acronym accordingly if you vote for this via a secondary vote.

Dehnert D.I (AvDD.I)
Following the adoption of the 160 hp Dehnert 9B radial engine and the incoming gearing of his company for its production, Stefan Utrecht set out to design an iconic aircraft to fit the powerplant and bring much-needed prestige to the Kaiserliche Luftjäger, of which his colleague had now become a member. The aircraft needed to be a noticeable improvement over the arguably outdated Motte - something on-par with vessels showcased in the European theatre, but distinct, so as to win the skies for the Empire.

Stefan thus tasked Andreas with designing a single-engined open-top single-seat aircraft, calling it the Dehnert Doppledecker. The result was to be a sturdy wooden monocoque aircraft, aerodynamically designed to maximize top speed and maneuverability, featuring a high-set front wing and low-set rear wing supported with a few thicker struts, fixed tricycle undercarriage, and a pusher propeller, with the engine in the rear of the fuselage and the pilot sitting in the front of the fuselage - armed with not one, but two fixed 7.62 mm GL-11s. The wings would thus be arranged in this way so as to distribute the lift, reducing the overall span of both wings, increasing the craft's maneuverability dramatically while making up for it with the added lift afforded by the Doppledecker arrangement. Further perks would ostensibly be the shorter take-off and landing runs this craft would face, and the impossibly difficult task of stalling such a machine. To further aid in the craft's controllability, ailerons are to be developed so as to keep pace with the enemy. Having seen the promise of the design, Stefan filed the patent for the Dehnert D.I* with the Luftjäger and awaited the reward that was sure to come.

*He liked to call it that, as the name AvDD.I / Dehnert D.I sounded better to his ear - the fact the plane differed from ordinary biplanes was ignored on Stefan's part

Dehnert D.II (AvDD.II)
As opposed to the innovation of the D.I, the D.II was constructed as a straight up upgrade to the Motte - forgoing the innovative wing configuration of the D.I in favor of more work towards the ailerons and fuselage profile, as well as work on the engine cowling, so as to work out a way to further improve cooling of the engine through airflow and improve upon it's power output. This craft comes in the form of a single-engined open-top single-seat single-bay biplane with a fair positive wing stagger, a monocoque fuselage, fixed landing gear, puller propeller and a single 7.62 mm machine gun in a Fördern mount. Due to the more powerful engine and relatively modest aspirations, it's expected to outperform the Motte while staying at around the same price range.

[ I'll edit something in here. Currently doing research and what-not ]

vv Addressing the Turn, not the above design. Describes what I wanted to do with the aircraft.

In light of this development, to be made alongside the AvD 915 / Dehnert 9B, so as to utilize it and future similar radial engines. The main foci will be on its maneuverability, structural integrity, and top speed - aerodynamic factors for the most part (like aerofoil shape etc), but with a noticeable impact from the engine used and the exact engineering of the fuselage - which I aim to be a monocoque if we don't already have that on the Motte.

Oh. And PJ forgot to track our project progress I think. It should be 2/10 I think? Or is that after this design phase? Apparently, we're not doing that...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:02:47 pm by Thanik »
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Madman198237

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Re: They Who Dare: The Empire of Schwarzes Holz - Kaiserliche Luftjäger
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2018, 09:04:12 pm »

I'm not sure we want the maneuverability loss that comes with using a pusher propeller, so instead I rewrote the aircraft to carry a lot of guns and use a standard puller propeller. I figure the difficulty in wing-mounting the guns is *probably* offset by not messing with the control scheme and such things necessary to use a pusher propeller.
Quote
Dehnert D.III (AvDD.III)
Following the adoption of the 160 hp Dehnert 9B radial engine and the incoming gearing of his company for its production, Stefan Utrecht set out to design an iconic aircraft to fit the powerplant and bring much-needed prestige to the Kaiserliche Luftjäger, of which his colleague had now become a member. The aircraft needed to be a noticeable improvement over the arguably outdated Motte - something on-par with vessels showcased in the European theatre, but distinct, so as to win the skies for the Empire.

Stefan thus tasked Andreas with designing a single-engined open-top single-seat aircraft, calling it the Dehnert Doppledecker. The result was to be a sturdy wooden monocoque aircraft, aerodynamically designed to maximize top speed and maneuverability, featuring a high-set front wing and low-set rear wing supported with a few thicker struts, fixed tricycle undercarriage, and a puller propeller, quite similar to the . The wings would thus be arranged in this way so as to distribute the lift, reducing the overall span of both wings, increasing the craft's maneuverability dramatically while making up for it with the added lift afforded by the Doppledecker arrangement. Further perks would ostensibly be the shorter take-off and landing runs this craft would face, and the impossibly difficult task of stalling such a machine. To further aid in the craft's controllability, ailerons are to be developed so as to keep pace with the enemy. Four of the guns can be, quite unusually, mounted in the wings as close to the fuselage as possible without being in danger of striking the propeller, plus two more in a double-Fostern mount above the pilot's head. The wing mounts utilize the same triggering system as the Fostern, but cannot be swiveled, saving weight and complexity. There are two triggers, one firing the Fostern-mounted guns, the other the wing-mounts. This simplifies the wiring system from "terrifyingly messy" to "merely complicated" by avoiding the crossing of streams wires. The triggers are located and constructed such that both can be pulled with one hand. Having seen the promise of the design, Stefan filed the patent for the Dehnert D.III with the Luftjäger and awaited the reward that was sure to come.

Another version of Nikola's/Thanik's proposal, this time retaining the pusher mount but still adding guns to the wings, to gain us experience in doing so and also because it allows us to carry more guns than otherwise possible. It ditches the double-trigger arrangement on the basis that all the guns are in the same plane, give-or-take, which reduces complexity quite a lot.
Quote
Dehnert D.IV (AvDD.IV)
Following the adoption of the 160 hp Dehnert 9B radial engine and the incoming gearing of his company for its production, Stefan Utrecht set out to design an iconic aircraft to fit the powerplant and bring much-needed prestige to the Kaiserliche Luftjäger, of which his colleague had now become a member. The aircraft needed to be a noticeable improvement over the arguably outdated Motte - something on-par with vessels showcased in the European theatre, but distinct, so as to win the skies for the Empire.

Stefan thus tasked Andreas with designing a single-engined open-top single-seat aircraft, calling it the Dehnert Doppledecker. The result was to be a sturdy wooden monocoque aircraft, aerodynamically designed to maximize top speed and maneuverability, featuring a high-set front wing and low-set rear wing supported with a few thicker struts, fixed tricycle undercarriage, and a pusher propeller, with the engine in the rear of the fuselage and the pilot sitting in the front of the fuselage. The wings would thus be arranged in this way so as to distribute the lift, reducing the overall span of both wings, increasing the craft's maneuverability dramatically while making up for it with the added lift afforded by the Doppledecker arrangement. Further perks would ostensibly be the shorter take-off and landing runs this craft would face, and the impossibly difficult task of stalling such a machine. To further aid in the craft's controllability, ailerons are to be developed so as to keep pace with the enemy. Four of the guns can be, quite unusually, mounted in the wings as close to the fuselage as possible without being in danger of striking the propeller, plus two more in the nose of the aircraft, all fired by one carefully-wired proxy trigger. The wing mounts utilize the same triggering system as the Fostern, but cannot be swiveled, saving weight and complexity. Having seen the promise of the design, Stefan filed the patent for the Dehnert D.IV with the Luftjäger and awaited the reward that was sure to come.
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Thanik

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Re: They Who Dare: The Empire of Schwarzes Holz - Kaiserliche Luftjäger
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2018, 03:24:11 pm »

I'm reposting the D.I to include some more details and to clear up some misconceptions Madman presented.


Dehnert Adderbolt D.I (AvDD.I)
Following the adoption of the 160 hp Dehnert 9B radial engine and the incoming gearing of his company for its production, Stefan Utrecht set out to design an iconic aircraft to fit the powerplant and bring much-needed prestige to the Kaiserliche Luftjäger, of which his colleague had now become a member. The aircraft needed to be a noticeable improvement over the arguably outdated Motte - something on-par with vessels showcased in the European theatre, but distinct, so as to win the skies for the Empire.

Stefan thus tasked Andreas with designing a single-engined open-top single-seat aircraft, calling it the Dehnert Adderbolt. The result was a bit more developed - made to be a sturdy wooden monocoque aircraft, aerodynamically designed to maximize top speed and maneuverability, featuring a high-set front wing and low-set rear wing supported with a thicker wing root and a few wires, fixed tricycle undercarriage, and a pusher propeller, with the engine in the rear of the fuselage and the pilot sitting in the front of the fuselage - armed with not one, but two fixed 7.62 mm GL-11s. The wings would thus be arranged in this way to reduce the overall span of both wings (and the tail is thus removed, in favor of placing the vertical control surfaces on the wingtips and making full use of the two wing surfaces for control), increasing the craft's maneuverability dramatically while making up for it with the added lift afforded by the Adderbolt arrangement. Further perks would ostensibly be the shorter take-off and landing runs this craft would face and the impossibly difficult task of stalling such a machine, making the aircraft more forgiving to high AoA maneuvers and saving the lives of numerous pilots in the process. To further aid in the craft's controllability, ailerons are to be developed so as to keep pace with the enemy and placed on both wings. Having seen the promise of the design, Stefan filed the patent for the Dehnert Adderbolt D.I* with the Luftjäger and awaited the reward that was sure to come.

*He liked to call it that, as the name AvDD.I / Dehnert Adderbolt D.I sounded better to his ear - the fact the plane differed from ordinary biplanes was ignored on Stefan's part

Quote from: Votebox
Design Proposals

Dehnert Adderbolt D.I (AvDD.I) (1): Thanik
Dehnert D.II (AvDD.II) (0):
Dehnert D.III (AvDD.III) (0):
Dehnert D.IV (AvDD.IV) (0):

Project R&D

Invest once and rush progress on the Dehnert 9B (1): Thanik
Invest once in the Dehnert 9B (1): Thanik
Do not invest in the Dehnert 9B (0):

Advantages due to the tandem wing:
1. The division of lift between two wings and the prospect of achieving an increased overall Cl (lift coefficient) makes it possible to restrict the wingspan (reduce the aspect ratio), thus elimination weight and increasing structural strength while also boosting maneuverability. This also leads to the elimination of the conventional tail and the concentration of the power plant weight near the CG, resulting in considerable reductions in both length and structural weight, which, in combination with the above, should also result in increased maneuverability.
2. Both foreplane and aftplane would contribute to total lift and consequently, the parasite drag associated with a conventional tailplane would be eliminated - this often amounting to as much as 10% of the total drag of a clean aircraft.
3. With the conventional wing-tailplane arrangement, the nosedown pitching moment associated with the center of pressure movement due to increased incidence calls for maximum negative lift from the tailplane at the very moment when the greatest overall lift is desired, but with the true tandem-wing arrangement the lift of the two planes would be additive and backward movement of the CP would call for increased lift from the leading plane to maintain trim. Translated to human language this means that if the angle of attack increases the place of the lift force shifts more backwards. Conventional airplanes need to compensate this moment (generated by the lift force being more backward from the CG) with an increasing downward force at the tail. Because higher AoA are used during landings, this is not ideal. When landing you need to get as much lift out of your airplane as it can get at those lower speeds. Tandems also get this extra moment, but they can compensate it by creating MORE lift on the front wing.

Advantages due to the pusher propeller:
1. By locating the engine amidships to drive a pusher propeller, the pilot could be positioned in the nose and thus provided with the perfect, unobstructed view (as much as possible, at least). This position of the engine brings the center of gravity further back, making the aircraft more maneuverable (at slightly higher speeds - it's worse on the ground and shortly after take-off, but that's minimized with this setup)
2. A pusher may have a shorter fuselage and hence a reduction in both fuselage wetted area and weight.
3. Pushers had advantages of pushing the wings and control surfaces through undisrupted air and that gave enough advantages that the a lot of pusher designs were put forward. A pusher would have superior cruising speed and better wing loading because it flew through undisturbed air, and control would be easier to retain.
4. Reduced wing icing (important in the winter!).

Other reasons why I believe this setup is superior to Madman's proposals is that they:
It should be both cheaper than the one with wing mounted guns and retain a reasonable pricetag approaching MAYBE 5/1 and more maneuverable than a tractor configuration while possessing higher accuracy due to having (two!) forward mounted guns. It's also the least complex of the proposed tandems due to trying the least things, but that boils down to Madman's wing mounted guns for the most part, I believe.

More here:
https://www.brighthub.com/science/aviation/articles/64838.aspx
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-a-propeller-at-the-back-of-the-fuselage-of-an-airplane

Tho I've also found some stuff suggesting otherwise, but I think that - as proposed - these advantages hold.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 03:30:06 pm by Thanik »
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