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[Nirur Torir]

Thank you for finally joining us, Roseheart.

Roseheart: If there are scum other than standard mafia, what kind are you hoping for and why?

So that means third parties, who are not beneficial to town? I just hope they benefit me in some way.

Interesting ...
All roles want to appear townie. I will assume you are trying to appear townie for the rest of this.
Even dead townies win when town wins. Third parties generally do not, and so their goals differ.
How do you hope to benefit from a third party?

Roseheart: You like to analyze forum games. Why, in your opinion, is (or isn't) a more talkative player more likely to be town?

I have played mafia on a couple sites. It seems pretty common that silence is rewarded pretty much anywhere. At least for the first few days.

Ah, but town is at an information disadvantage, and the only way to counter that is with lots of talking, preferably early. At worst, silence looks like you have no respect for having signed up. At best, you just look like scum who's afraid of talking.

Got any reads on anyone yet? If not, get in there and ask some questions of someone.

@Nirur - I have reads on people who are posting. How am I supposed to question someone when they’re not around to be questioned?

I don't know, I guess it's impossible for you to ask questions unless they're online right when you are, since you don't seem to be asking other people questions.

You, my top scumspect, are voting my other scumspect. Why should I vote with someone I think is scum? The other players I am unhappy with are being prompted to post by others, namely Kit and roseheart.

I never said anything about voting with me, just about figuring out who else is scum. Unless you're confident there's just 2 scum to 8 townies, and you'll win the game after killing Urist and myself?

Your best bet to make me think your’re not scum is not to attack my case, it’s to convince me you’re town by finding scum.

Oh! Sorry, I didn't realize you had a case on me, only insults on my ability to find scum.
Please, feel free to present it.
If I'm one of only two scum, scumpowers must be OP. Gotta make sure not to waste any lynches.

[RoseHeart]

roseheart - should be in the previous grouping, but posting “hi” after webadict’s “woe for the subforum” thing was infuriating.

You see, I tend to run into problems like these when there a "tight nit" communities. Games like Mafia evolve(or devolve, depending on your perspective) into highly ritualized affairs. There are codes of honor. Sportmanship. Levels and layers of intricacy, that someone who walks in from the outside is simply not cultured in.

I see Mafia like a war.

While I am no veteran, I've atleast earned a few purple hearts. I've been fooled, bamboozled. I see that anything cool be a trap. If I seem cold, it's because I imagine everyone has a shit-eating grin on their face, and dagger behind their back.

But I recommend you cool your jets. I may see it all as a game, but other newcomers like myself may be off put when "hi" is interpreted as "THE BIGGEST INSULT EVERRR111!!1". Perhaps contributing more to the problems you speak of. Just my 2 yen.

[hector13]

I’m done with you Nirur, the back and forth is adding nothing to other player’s reads and cluttering the thread. I summarized my case in my reads list. I think you’re scum, you think I’m an idiot, I’m okay with that state of affairs.

I am less okay with you completely missing a slip from roseheart.

@roseheart: when you have one player who has just declared they’re unhappy with the standard of play slipping in a pretty big post, posting “hi” afterwards will be viewed with a particularly high degree of disdain from everyone, new or otherwise.

This is not the slip to which I’m referring.

I can’t be bothered quoting it right now, I’m tired and have to eat my dinner. We’ll see if someone else gets it.

[Nirur Torir]

I’m done with you Nirur, the back and forth is adding nothing to other player’s reads and cluttering the thread. I summarized my case in my reads list. I think you’re scum, you think I’m an idiot, I’m okay with that state of affairs.

It's giving pretty good evidence that you're scum.

Your ... case .. against me, quoted here:

Nirur - feeling scummy, but that’s mostly because of the poor case on me. This post seems to imply that my level of experience has cleared me in some capacity? Doesn’t want to interact with me anymore, probably worried I noticed how little he did on his own, maybe worried about making a slip with “buddies”.

That's your case on me. That's all.
And yet, I'm the scummiest player. That's the most dirt you can dig up on anyone. Or the most you're willing to bother digging up on anyone. It doesn't matter enough to bother with, I suppose, since I'm the most voted and you're safe with 0.
I'm at the top of your scumlist, but you don't actually care if you get anyone else voting for me. You're done our interactions. And you refuse to look into anyone else.

Hector's our first scum.

[Nirur Torir]

IcyTea and Tom: I would especially like your opinions on my case against Hector, given his weird reads on you (and not commenting on them):

Nirur Torir: Let's assume Hector is scum. Who is/are his scumbuddy/scumbuddies?

In that hypothetical?
One's Tom:

Tomasque - town-lean - handful of posts I haven’t read into much, was busy, looks like he’s trying to get more solid reads on people. Pushes Nirur for talking nonsense about Tomasque’s playing experience, has a case on Kit which I can accept as reasonable at this point of the game.

"I can't be bothered to read his posts, but he sounds reasonable and is clearly doing stuff."
(With focus on easy targets.)
The other's IcyTea.

IcyTea - town lean. Engaging with things, asking people things. Bemused why he thinks my refuge is not as good as webadict’s refuge. Reads list doesn’t quite gel with mine, can’t complain about that I guess.

Two posts are not enough to really say someone's being engaging.

In short: Hector has a weak case on me, didn't respond to me calling it weak, and has me as his top scum pick. His second, and only other pick is a lurker who he claims to always read as scummy.
He refused to investigate anyone else, list other potential scum candidates, or expand on his case on me, and, when pressed, said he's done with me.
Despite me being his only real scum pick, he doesn't seem interested in actually trying to get me lynched.

[hector13]

 

When I focus on someone else I guess I’ll be town then? Nobody will follow you because you’ve labeled me scum then town then scum, and your current vote is an OMGUS after a multitude of panicked posts.

PPE: 

The game started on a weekend, when I would much rather spend time with my wife, when we both have time off. We both have Monday’s off, so I’m less inclined to post when she’s around.

On top of that, no other cunt has been posting, how the fuck am I supposed to investigate someone else when they won’t post? I’ll be pushing roseheart tomorrow, like I alluded to and you completely ignored because you’re so freaked out about me voting for you.

I’m not going to lay out my entire case against you in a reads list, and you flailing about demanding I look elsewhere is going to do what exactly? Make me want to double down on you because who in a game of mafia doesn’t want attention? Got it on one, mate.

If you want me to go after someone else stop demanding my attention by telling me I’m an idiot in every single post.

You won’t find scum by telling them they’re scum, for fu-

I’m going to read creepy pasta and go to bed. This is ridiculous.

The worst part of this is you remind me so much of how I used to play. Chill out, man.

[Nirur Torir]

When I focus on someone else I guess I’ll be town then?

We can question multiple people at once, the Internet is amazing!

Nobody will follow you because you’ve labeled me scum then town then scum, and your current vote is an OMGUS after a multitude of panicked posts.

Interesting defense, reminding people of my voting history. Let's see how it plays out!

The game started on a weekend, when I would much rather spend time with my wife, when we both have time off. We both have Monday’s off, so I’m less inclined to post when she’s around.

Should've remembered to say that earlier, instead of making excuses like .. this one.

On top of that, no other cunt has been posting, how the fuck am I supposed to investigate someone else when they won’t post? I’ll be pushing roseheart tomorrow, like I alluded to and you completely ignored because you’re so freaked out about me voting for you.

You could ask questions.
And of course I ignored it, you're trying to passive-aggressively point me at Roseheart instead of at yourself.

I’m not going to lay out my entire case against you in a reads list, and you flailing about demanding I look elsewhere is going to do what exactly? Make me want to double down on you because who in a game of mafia doesn’t want attention? Got it on one, mate.

Oh you actually DO have one? You haven't laid it out anywhere, even when I asked for it. Makes it hard to get people lynched if you refuse to do so.

If you want me to go after someone else stop demanding my attention by telling me I’m an idiot in every single post.

But it gets you here, talking and doing something.

Chill out, man.

I can't chill out, I found scum!

[Tomasque]

You know, after what failbird said, I think its time I dig myself out of the hole I've been making. I've been trying to act like a better mafia player than I really am and its ended up with me spending an hour or more on every major post and has left me with zero motivation to actually play. Even as I write this I'm deleting a sentence and finding slightly different ways to word it and I know there's a better way to say all this but I don't enjoy trying to find it anymore.

I'm just going to answer every question bluntly and in the first way that pops into my head.

Tom: I'd still like to hear who you most suspect from those who aren't lurkers (like Webby) or newbies. That leaves Dolores, Tom, IcyTea, Hector, and me. Or do you read us all as town?

I most suspect IcyTea. His argument with webadict could very well be real, but that vote against him doesn't make sense if he was a town player. If town!IcyTea thought webadict was a dumb troll, he'd get mad for sure, but he'd want him modkilled, not killed within the parameters of the game.

@roseheart, FoU and everyone else - arglbargl we have enough to formulate a pool of lynchees, please get to forming arguments on who you want to lynch and why.

I think that we should lynch kit. He's been silent for a while, and in the last post he made, he accused me of calling him scum & submerging. His original behavior with Nirur seemed a suspicious to me and worthy of pressing him about it, but the fact that he voted me back right after and then went silent has convinced me that he is scum.

I would especially like your opinions on my case against Hector, given his weird reads on you (and not commenting on them):

I don't think hector's reads on me are suspicious, given that his whole list of reads is lenient on a lot of people. I'll highlight what I mean.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nirur - feeling scummy, but that’s mostly because of the poor case on me. This post seems to imply that my level of experience has cleared me in some capacity? Doesn’t want to interact with me anymore, probably worried I noticed how little he did on his own, maybe worried about making a slip with “buddies”.

FoU - scum-lean, but I am aware I always think that about him. Should be doing more, weekend start gives a little leeway in that respect.

Kit and failbird - anxious newer players. Kit has kept something from pre-game going, failbird is worried about coming across as a fool. We all did in our first few games, man.

roseheart - should be in the previous grouping, but posting “hi” after webadict’s “woe for the subforum” thing was infuriating.

Tomasque - town-lean - handful of posts I haven’t read into much, was busy, looks like he’s trying to get more solid reads on people. Pushes Nirur for talking nonsense about Tomasque’s playing experience, has a case on Kit which I can accept as reasonable at this point of the game.

dolores - probably town, with caveats. Making people think about what they’re doing, could probably do it without calling everyone some variety of female genitalia, but eh. Has also dropped a few “slips” and such for people to pick up on, hence the caveat. IcyTea picked up on some. Encouraging activity is a pretty easy thing to be doing, though.

webadict - has spent a great portion of the game lamenting the slow death of the subforum, so... webadict. I guess he’s paying attention?

IcyTea - town lean. Engaging with things, asking people things. Bemused why he thinks my refuge is not as good as webadict’s refuge. Reads list doesn’t quite gel with mine, can’t complain about that I guess.

One more thing. Dolores, you said that my case against kit sounded scummy, but I don't remember you elaborating about it. Could you do that? The fact that you talked about how convoluted it was without actually facing me about it wasn't something that passed me by.

[hector13]

Nirur evidently doesn’t know what tunneling means, else he’d stop doing it

“Well you’re scum I need to take every opportunity to remind everyone that I think you’re scum and clutter the thread and point out everything you say makes you scum, allowing your partners to hide in the resultant noise.”

[Nirur Torir]

You talk but you do nothing.

You accuse me of tunneling, but say that talking about why you think you're top scumpick, me, is scum only clutters the thread. Then what doesn't?

(Amending my previous point: Hector and Tom probably aren't both scum together, since they're in a secret society.)

[webadict]

There's so much of your post that's wrong that I don't know where to start, and being on my phone only increases the difficulty.

So let's start on only the end. You are steeped in hypocrisy. You are voting me because I'm not trying (using selectively taken information to back up your vote), while simultaneously choosing to sit out during the game (and doing basically what I've done.) Did you just give up and not try your hardest?

Weird. See, while I never promised to do that, you did! And now I'm holding you to that standard.

The sad part is if you think that sort of gambit would work, it doesn't. Ultimatums are stupid for multiple reasons. Plus, the transition was too fast for it to be believable.

The second issue is that if the attempt was to anger me even more, it didn't work. Not because you're being incredibly and purposefully selective in your evidence, but because, frankly, I really don't think you contribute significantly enough to the town to warrant the attitude. You're not dolores or hector13. They have the real power. Nirur would if they weren't making a dumb case on hector13. You have... nothing.

Third, you look worse than I do. In fact, I probably look better now in spite of your protest. It was a stupid gambit. Because now, when I do some actual posting on Wednesday (which, since you are selectively holding memories anyway, is the day I have some time), it STILL won't have been because of you. Dolores pretty much gets full credit, so you'll have to pick yourself up.

Fast explanations because no time: joined because needed players (citation exists in same post), hate old players that allow stupid things and not new ones (citation iffy, since post is a bit arbitrary but evidence there), roseheart either intentionally failed their spot check or they are not the careful and meticulous player they claim (citation not even remotely needed because its obvious)

[dolores]

Nirur evidently doesn’t know what tunneling means, else he’d stop doing it

See, I never got the point of posts like this. If you're going to say something like that, include it in a larger body of text. Otherwise, people will respond to the throwaway parts and it impedes the actual process. I write big-long-huge posts mostly because there's a lot that I want to say, but while it's true that there's no real need for me to say as much as I do I think that it helps. Writing lots of smaller posts just makes you look like webadict, where active players go off on tangents in having shitty meta-arguments with you instead of engaging with the game.
Incidentally, the reason the subforum has such a hard time clinging to life is because mafia is a game of interest to a narrow range of people, and the subforum is a subboard of a subboard of a board in the off-topic section of the forum for a niche singleplayer computer game where little-to-nothing interesting or insightful has ever happened on the main forums. It'd be like if I tried to play hisoutensoku every day with players exclusively drawn from the 'other games' subforum.
PPE: Nirur's response does a good job of showing why this kind of posting is useless

Spoiler: EHRMAHGEHRD (click to show/hide)

the subforum is dying ‘cause we’re all cunts and treat the noobs like shit, which makes it unbelievably difficult to retain players who have any interest because we always say “stop being shit, shitlord” when people don’t meet standards of play we come to expect, and every other cunt lurks because they’re scared of being called a cunty shitlord wankstain for daring to post a crap question.

Yeah, because I was so intimidated by the hostile response at the start of P25 that it scared me away forever, sure.

I am less okay with you completely missing a slip from roseheart.
I can’t be bothered quoting it right now, I’m tired and have to eat my dinner. We’ll see if someone else gets it.

I dunno if you're talking about

So that means third parties, who are not beneficial to town? I just hope they benefit me in some way.

Which if read literally can be seen as claiming that roseheart is explicitly not in the town, but I'm gonna be honest if that's your biggest problem with roseheart's play you and me are going to have to have some words.

See, there's this thing that 'new' scum, especially those with some familiarity in another mafia context, do. Roseheart is a prime candidate for this, and it's deliberate inactivity. On B12, deliberately lurking as scum isn't something veteran players like to do because it kills games and ruins the sub-forum, because it wouldn't fly if the forum was actually alive so it's a bad habit, because it's boring to do and they care more about having a good game then winning a specific setup, and because lots of players take excuses about inactivity in good faith. The only people I've seen who were big enough pieces of shit to do it unironically in a game that I actually watched were tiruin and flabort.
IcyTea hasn't followed up with my previous post because he chose to focus on the metadrama instead, so I guess I'll wait for that if he still wants to play.
I swear someone asked me a question but I can't find it. I'm not talking about Toma obviously. Might just be hector talking about roseheart.

Spoiler: Tomasque (click to show/hide)

@roseheart, FoU and everyone else - arglbargl we have enough to formulate a pool of lynchees, please get to forming arguments on who you want to lynch and why.

I think that we should lynch kit. He's been silent for a while, and in the last post he made, he accused me of calling him scum & submerging. His original behavior with Nirur seemed a suspicious to me and worthy of pressing him about it, but the fact that he voted me back right after and then went silent has convinced me that he is scum.

I'm accusing you of scum, but you're not trying to lynch me.
That's a terrible fucking reason to try to lynch someone anyway.

One more thing. Dolores, you said that my case against kit sounded scummy, but I don't remember you elaborating about it. Could you do that? The fact that you talked about how convoluted it was without actually facing me about it wasn't something that passed me by.

I sure fucking hope not, though this shit seems to have passed you by:

KitRougard
My problem with you is that your reasoning isn't there. If you've actually thought about your lynch, then you haven't demonstrated your reasoning in the thread. It's not hard to do, especially since Tomasque is going after two virtual non-players with some really twisted reasoning, and if you do convince me to vote for him then I'll drop a wall of text explaining what's wrong with his posts and why I don't like his reasoning or tone. I can reasonably guarantee that he'll be lynched, which is good for you because you probably think you're town and you probably think he's scum. The caveat is that in order to convince me you need to give me some real reasons as to why I should lynch him, because if you can't do that then I can't reasonably expect to get anything out of you for the rest of the game and I can always lynch tomasque afterwards.

I don't want to lynch you at the moment.
It's not that I don't think that you're scum, but because the only active players I can buy as scum are you and Nirur. That's 2/4 hits if I'm reading the hector/kit interaction right, so I might have to shoot twice in the inactive pool to hit the other scum. IcyTea's already seen what I mean (it's not exactly a secret) and it's possible that Kit has as well. The problem is that Kit hasn't said anything about whether or not they have. I'm pushing on Kit over you because I can reasonably believe that they're town and I won't know that until they either respond or die. The nice thing about newer players is it's very easy to get reliable reads from them if they make a genuine effort when put under pressure. Keep in mind that I might need to repeat this process for roseheart (unlikely at this point actually), failbird's replacement, webadict, and FoU.

Nirur Torir
Oh boy where to start

Spoiler: Let's get this out of the way (click to show/hide)

I realize I'm staging this in such a way as to make me look worse than I could, but I can't let this go without calling you out for it

Nirur Torir: Let's assume Hector is scum. Who is/are his scumbuddy/scumbuddies?

In that hypothetical?
One's Tom:

Tomasque - town-lean - handful of posts I haven’t read into much, was busy, looks like he’s trying to get more solid reads on people. Pushes Nirur for talking nonsense about Tomasque’s playing experience, has a case on Kit which I can accept as reasonable at this point of the game.

"I can't be bothered to read his posts, but he sounds reasonable and is clearly doing stuff."
(With focus on easy targets.)
The other's IcyTea.

IcyTea - town lean. Engaging with things, asking people things. Bemused why he thinks my refuge is not as good as webadict’s refuge. Reads list doesn’t quite gel with mine, can’t complain about that I guess.

Two posts are not enough to really say someone's being engaging.
Honorable mention for Dolores, since they both say the other is town.

You're saying people would be scummy based on the reads of confirmed scum?
What?
This is a prime example of what makes me want to call you scummy, which is why I'm glad it's here; because it's a hypothetical.
You actually think like this?
Besides the fact that the reads of other players mean nothing with regards to the alignments of anybody else, you're making judgments based on the stated opinions of someone you can reasonably assume is wanting to deceive you? What?
You don't need to respond to this. This is more here so I can refer to it latter in bafflement when I've got to do more to decide whether or not you are scum.

I was going to write more here but anyway, fuck it.
You dropped into a tunnel on hector right at the start of the game because you were baiting into one with his starting play, but other than that you've been either RVSing, backpedaling, or more recently tunneling hector again. I guess you actually think that lynching him will tell you the names of the other scum players? You're not even trying to get him lynched, you're just trying to shout over him in the thread. There's two problems with that.
First of all, you don't know who the other scum(/TP) are. For comparison, I'm thinking Tomasque is scum, I could buy that you're scum, I think IcyTea and Hector are more likely to be town, I'm grilling Kit, Hector/others are grilling roseheart, and I'm waiting on activity from FoU, Webadict and failbird. What's your plan if you lynch hector? See what happens over the night and start from scratch? You even don't think that Hector and Tomasque are scum together. That's wifom but I believe it. Do you now think Tomasque is town? Who the fuck is scum then?
Secondly, and this is a big part of why part 1 is so important, you're not doing anything to sell the lynch. Maybe you just don't know how. But surely you realize it's important that you do so. Hell, you're in the most danger of getting lynched of anyone here.
PPE:
Oh it's just wuba
Anyway yeah Nirur Torir.
If you want to convince us to vote for hector you've got to do a lot more, either by finding and presenting evidence or by doing a good job talking specific players into voting with you. You've done a lot of backpedaling this game and have generally tried to be pretty inoffensive to pretty well everyone other than toma and hector, so at present I'm 100% more likely to side with hector if today's lynch comes down to him vs. you

[Nirur Torir]

You're saying people would be scummy based on the reads of confirmed scum?
What?
This is a prime example of what makes me want to call you scummy, which is why I'm glad it's here; because it's a hypothetical.
You actually think like this?

But I wrote that I already suspected them. Elsewhere in that post. Combining that with his interactions with them is a good starting point, even if the extent of his interactions is his reads on them.


I'm his top scumpick, apparently, and yet stating his case on me would "clutter the thread."
I don't think he even thinks I'm scum, which would mean he thinks everyone is town. Except Roseheart now I guess.

Until he gives something, I am justified in shouting about him having nothing on anyone. He is actually active and has no excuses.

What's your plan if you lynch hector?

My other top pick who's active is IcyTea, who I have already asked to give an opinion on my Hector statements. I figured I'd watch him interrogating you, and try to draw in lurkers later if they still haven't done anything.

[hector13]

Nirur: I will speak about this after the game, you really do play like I used to.

Anyway, I will now actually reads the thread properly because I have longer than 15 minutes to do it. I will give myself 2 hours, because I have sandwich and I want to eat it, and then want to rob people and celebrate having found a badger, maybe raid temples or whatever.

[TricMagic]

{6}Community Extend Votes:(3) dolores, ?tomasque?, webadict

First 24
Second 24

Code: (Player Vote Count, Third 24) [Select]

1. Icytea
2. FallacyofUrist(0)
3. hector13(1)  Nirur Torir,
4. Failbird105(0) 
5. roseheart(1)  webadict,
6. Nirur Torir(3) Failbird105, KitRougard, hector13
7. KitRougard (1) Tomasque, dolores
8. Dolores
9. Tomasque (1) Kitrougard
10. {E}webadict(2) FallacyofUrist, IcyTea31



Third 24
hector13 switches vote to Nirur Torir
dolores switches vote to KitRougard
Nirur Torir switches vote to FallacyofUrist
Personal Extension from webadict
IcyTea31 votes for webadict
Nirur Torir switches vote to hector13


1854 Hours Left, 72 Hour Mark passed.(+24)
Personal 24 Hour boost

"We do seem to be pushing along, and talk is fierce."
"Only a matter of time till we get to Hammertime though."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)