Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ManaUser]

One of the things I have trouble with is the conflict between my desire to make some kind of grand citadel and the need to get things up and running reasonably fast. Since mining is irreversible I'm not sure how to avoid having sloppy remnants left over in my (hypothetical) Super Cool Fortress™.

Anyone else struggle with that? Any tips on how to deal with it?

[Anandar]

Design and build the super cool citadel and collapse all the old unwanted sections when no longer needed?

[Maul_Junior]

I believe there's a dfhack to hide previously revealed areas.

Then again, it will only ever be construction, not rock walls.

[Tilmar13]

The most fun part of fortress building (for me) is designating huge patterns and layouts and then opening it up for mining as workers free up. I use fractal patterns for bedrooms and then after all workshops, farms, etc. are built, I dig up/down a few levels and clear out huge areas to serve as stone stockpiles. I always try and keep in mind traffic flow and how everything will run 5 years down the line, so I leave room to expand my halls, dining rooms, workshops, and everything else. Get creative with using z-levels, too! Helps minimize walk distance. Make sure to leave room at the front of your fortress to route enemies through, Reverse Battlements are my favorite. Be sure to check out the wiki pages for design, layout, security, etc.

In summary: Plan your fortress carefully so you have room for expansion without compromising the aesthetics you want

[Adequate Swimmer]

It's generally better to grow organically by meeting needs and making lots of small improvements. One thing you can do as a new player is to always have 30-40 stone blocks plus some doors and basic furniture. That's your undo button any time you want to modify an existing part of your fortress.

[Ninjabread]

You could use the planning mode to lay out your Super Cool Fortress™ mining plans, and then just try to keep your starter fortress inside the final fortress plans.

Alternatively, something I like to do is leave my old fort mostly intact, and turn it into a defensive entryway to the new fort which is all deeper underground. I like to think it has an eerie ghost town vibe, which just makes the ambushes and traps the invaders run into all the more fitting.

[Chief10]

One of the things I have trouble with is the conflict between my desire to make some kind of grand citadel and the need to get things up and running reasonably fast. Since mining is irreversible I'm not sure how to avoid having sloppy remnants left over in my (hypothetical) Super Cool Fortress™.

Anyone else struggle with that? Any tips on how to deal with it?

I always struggle with this as well. Generally I would spend some time at the beginning making a panic room, either out of blocks/wood, outdoors or dug somewhere out of the way of the future fortress location. Put your initial workshops outside right next to the front door of this panic room. As dig rooms (or build them up), move the workshops as appropriate. You can usually get away with not designating stockpiles for the first year or so.

Embark with a dedicated military dwarf. If any early enemies attack, put everyone in the panic room and fight it off with the military dwarf.

Also, consider building an above ground fort. It takes longer, sure, but you can redo any building you don't like with no consequence. Plus I think they look pretty cool

[Gigaz]

One of the things I have trouble with is the conflict between my desire to make some kind of grand citadel and the need to get things up and running reasonably fast. Since mining is irreversible I'm not sure how to avoid having sloppy remnants left over in my (hypothetical) Super Cool Fortress™.

Anyone else struggle with that? Any tips on how to deal with it?

Mining is not completely irreversible. Besides constructions you can cast obsidian, or ice in a freezing climate.
You could also do a no mining challenge and build everything from wood.

[ManaUser]

Thanks for the ideas. I think what I'll try in my next fort is combining a couple of suggestions and making a my initial dwellings in the dirt layer, while trying to keep the size constrained, and then planning to make that into some kind of entryway with a depot and defenses down the line. Obviously I'll need to refit it with constructed stone walls and floors since dirt just won't do at point.

But if anyone else has more ideas, keep them coming, because this is a perennial problem.

[anewaname]

I choose some portions of the planned real fortress and dig them out partially, and shove all beds, tables, chairs, into those areas. Usually the area is a soil layer room that will become a grazing/gathering room. Many early workshops will be scattered on the surface also; workshops that will not be cluttered when deconstructed, like tanners and soapmakers.

Much of the process is a re-doing of what you did before, but bigger and nicer.

[Fleeting Frames]

I've done temp forts before. I think the advice to setup it in the initially dug out rooms of the greater fort is a good one; though I've also constructed temporary palisades and gotten underground quickly, then used up the material I took with me for the production of furniture and blocks I want to colour the main fort with.

Either way, once you've used up the embark materials/have gotten rooms dug out, it's time to deconstruct old workshop and build a new one. The greater you build the initial fort the harder moving tends to get.

(If the things you took are small, could toss them all into a minecart and move over with it quickly, but boulders have substantial size.)



As for remnants...I don't mind them too much (they denote history), but in another thread I saw a suggestion to build a fort in a hill, then later flatten it (the hill). On a flat ground, you could do similarly expect with an artificial (magma) lake/cistern.


@Gigaz: Automatically producing carts filled with a cart of magma and water each is bit difficult, though; to my knowledge an unsolved problem.

[Adequate Swimmer]

One of the things I have trouble with is the conflict between my desire to make some kind of grand citadel and the need to get things up and running reasonably fast. Since mining is irreversible I'm not sure how to avoid having sloppy remnants left over in my (hypothetical) Super Cool Fortress™.

Anyone else struggle with that? Any tips on how to deal with it?

Mining is not completely irreversible. Besides constructions you can cast obsidian, or ice in a freezing climate.
You could also do a no mining challenge and build everything from wood.

I did this once when I set up a palisade in the plains between my main fort and my enemies. No stone, no metal, no migrants, no caravans, aquifier several layers deep and 8+ enemy sites within half a day's walk. The town's entire economy was based around raiding and melting down any piece of metal the dwarves could get their hands on. The first two metal bars I scavenged were turned into a smelter and a wood burner. The town gradually developed until it became the biggest library and learning center in the world.

[Salmeuk]

For me, my early fortress design depends on whether or not my "real" fortress will have a grand entrance. That is, a multi-z-level entrance complete with engraved columns and vaulted ceilings and waterworks, etc. If I am putting a lot of thought into the entrance, I tend to build a fairly self-sufficient minifort off to the side on the surface.

Key attributes for this mini-fortress include 50+ modest rooms, nice dining / praying / socializing facilities, plenty of storage for the random junk needed in constructing the real fortress, a barracks and weaponsmith, exploratory shafts dug to find the caverns, fairly robust food growing / processing, and easily-expandable and repeatable room design.

By keeping these miniforts similar to one another, I can set them up in only a few seasons and get right to work on my grand entrance without unnecessary distraction. Because I know the cavern layout I can usually plan some cool rooms that overlook a cavern lake, or rooms centered in the flux stone layers, or interesting ramps that lead to interesting places.

When the real fort is livable, I tend to move everyone except the military out. The minifort becomes a robust surface barracks at that point. You could also turn it into the visitor center, with libraries and temples. Or wall it off and forget about it.

My best advice is to never become too attached to any one part of your fortress. It can really hamper the fun when you're getting all anxious about perfecting this room or that entrance or what have you. A more easygoing design lets you focus on the amazing generated stories.

[Crashmaster]

I like to plan a surface fort that will eventually double as an obsidian casting mold. Force all dwarves to live outdoors until they have perfected the entrance and hollowed out a good section of the fort proper. Moving year is busy.

[SixOfSpades]

One of the things I have trouble with is the conflict between my desire to make some kind of grand citadel and the need to get things up and running reasonably fast. Since mining is irreversible I'm not sure how to avoid having sloppy remnants left over in my (hypothetical) Super Cool Fortress™.

I'm of the opinion that "any" good fort is actually at least two forts: One relatively open to outsiders, and one that can be safely sealed off even if the outer fort gets completely overrun. Build your design around this concept, and upon embark, start digging the outer fort. Once it's completely dug and occupied, start digging the main fort, and gradually turn each part of the outer fort into what its real function was going to be all along: The first bedrooms are converted to a barracks, whose soldiers stand ready to duel invaders on the very spot where the original food stockpile once stood. The old dining hall becomes an inn welcoming travelers, and its kitchen area is where the old expedition leader & mayor used to sleep. The first bedrooms are now rented rooms, adjunct to the inn. The dormitory is designated as a hospital, conveniently close to any dwarves who got wounded in surface combat. The old wood stockpile got new furniture & bookcases, and is now the library open to visiting scholars. The cramped crafting area, which once held all the workshops crammed cheek-by-jowl, is now a polished multi-z Trading Hall, with the Depot gleaming in the center. Design your early-game rooms according to their late-game purpose, and you'll be better off for it.