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Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 31843 times)

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #210 on: September 07, 2018, 10:32:06 am »

Ah forget about it. I don't see why there couldn't be anarchist systems in df. I tend to view dwarves to be fairly anarchic in the way their society actually works. Also for a short time a people could be anarchist but then they are run over by other systems due to their inability to act quickly.
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ZM5

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #211 on: September 07, 2018, 01:36:41 pm »

GoblinCookie, why did you even reply when all you do is complaining that "this" won't make the game become PRECISELY how YOU want it to be...
Just ignore him. I wish there was a block feature on the forums for this sort of occassion, admittedly.

Anarchic systems probably would have to be implemented given the way goblins seem to operate - I'm admittedly not sure if anarchic is entirely the proper word for it - maybe it's just me, but I've always kinda seen them as operating in a way similar to Mad Max or Borderlands-style bandit warlords - so more of "fantasy anarchy" rather than "transitional state anarchy". Essentially a very simple "might makes right" structure where the strongest, most cruel goblin (or kidnapped dwarf/human/elf) is chief, and most likely answers to the master of their entire "civilization", who are the demon overlords (the strongest of them all by default given their size, combat skills and oftentimes strange syndrome-causing abilities) - they're kept in order just enough to group up and fight as an army against the other races, but not organized to the point where they don't kill each other all the time over things that to other races would be very trifling matters (I've seen atleast a few incidents from other players where goblin visitors kill someone else over an argument - similar stuff happens in adventure mode too if you have a bunch of goblin visitors in a tavern, one will end up flattering the other or dismiss their argument, the other one decides to "settle this their own way", and out come the swords).

The bit about goblins finding treason utterly unthinkable also makes me think it'd be interesting to implement dynamic ethics changes (could be a setting in the raws, if one wants a particular civ to always have a certain ethic no matter the circumstance), perhaps related to changing rulers. While the ethic was, I presume, put there mostly for gameplay reasons, it would be interesting if it were to change after the demon dies - from a story perspective I always thought it's not some moral reason that they think treason is unthinkable, and its moreso due to the qualities demons have (gigantic, unbelievably strong, etc.) - even if a group of goblins were to rise up against a particularly sadistic overlord, they'd be very unlikely to win, so they most likely just don't bother with it at all, especially given the presumed "might makes right" mentality they have. However, I'd imagine they'd stop being so opposed to it if the demon were to be killed during a war and a normal goblin, dwarf, elf or human were to take over.

Alternatively it could also lead to implementing some kind of alternative "the ruler is worshipped as a physical deity" mechanic for them, where the reason for them not trying to take out the demon is because they see it as an actual god that lives amongst them, ergo it'd be sacrilege to even attempt to harm them in any way - I guess it all depends on how you interpret goblin society to be like and what exactly do you interpret them to be - once the myth update is out the latter could be potentially any combination of creation myths which would further muddle the matters - still, atleast IMO it'd be a good way to add another element of potential differences between worlds and even individual civs within a world - same with how human civs all have different values, different goblins civs could range from just being violent warbands under a demon ruler, where they regularly murder each other over trifles, to more of a violent cult-like structure that worships what they consider to be an actual deity, a structure that is more organized and where the goblins are dissuaded from randomly killing each other by various means.

Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #212 on: September 07, 2018, 01:56:57 pm »

Ah forget about it. I don't see why there couldn't be anarchist systems in df. I tend to view dwarves to be fairly anarchic in the way their society actually works. Also for a short time a people could be anarchist but then they are run over by other systems due to their inability to act quickly.
Actually, Anarchist societies are quite quick to respond to threats.
They are however Not very good at cooperation .. because of their disdain for hierarchy.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #213 on: September 07, 2018, 02:09:09 pm »

@ZM5: Goblin societies actually function more like a chaotic Autocracy; i.e. the demon overlord does not care about how the goblins organize themselves as long as he/she/it is obeyed by these insignificant creatures.
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ZM5

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #214 on: September 07, 2018, 03:21:57 pm »

That makes more sense in terms of a proper name for what their society is, thanks for the correction.

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #215 on: September 07, 2018, 03:31:34 pm »

Ah forget about it. I don't see why there couldn't be anarchist systems in df. I tend to view dwarves to be fairly anarchic in the way their society actually works. Also for a short time a people could be anarchist but then they are run over by other systems due to their inability to act quickly.
Actually, Anarchist societies are quite quick to respond to threats.
They are however Not very good at cooperation .. because of their disdain for hierarchy.
I would object but this would be somewhere else. Since we both agree on having a variety in game I asume a violent and a cooperative anarcy would be plausible in df.
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Demonic Gophers

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #216 on: September 07, 2018, 04:35:32 pm »

To some Anarchism is a legitimate and sustainable option superior to all other forms.
Problem with Anarchism is that it is a have-cake+eat-it-too ideology.  It promises everything to everyone, ignoring the internal contradictions between every promise and every other promise given the rules of reality.  Dwarf Fortress is realistic enough in it's mechanics that it would not be possible to gloss over the contradictions, so our DF Anarchism would result in a whole raft of societies, none of which would qualify as Anarchy, because key promises would be broken. 
I'm pretty sure that there are lots of versions of Anarchism, and none of them promise everything to everyone.  They just claim to be a better option than the alternatives.  Sure, you can probably find a few individuals who will promise everyone that anarchy will make their lives perfect, just like some insist that the free market will solve all problems if we just get out of its way, or the government can fix everything if given the chance.  But that isn't part of the actual political philosophy behind it - just advertising.

Also, DF is a fantasy world generator, not a political science research simulation.  It should be able to handle a wide variety of social and governmental structures, including ones that probably wouldn't work in reality, because lots of fantasy settings include societies that aren't very plausible.

Among vanilla goblins, it seems like any dispute that doesn't draw the attention of the ruler would be settled either by the two parties working to convince everyone interested to side with them and form a mob, or by a nice, quiet murder in the night.  I could also see formal or semi-formal dueling as a possibility.  Some more structured societies might have trial by combat; the closest thing to a judge could be the warrior tasked with fighting accused criminals.
Problem with that system is that the different mobs simply end up becoming two different governments and the goblins cease to be a unified force.  Division is not a solution to problems for a society that wishes to remain in existence.  This runs up against the whole ethics problems, ethics exist in society for a reason and they are not optional.

I reckon goblins work based upon a creative application of treason, the only thing they care about.  If a goblin kills another goblin, the other goblins just look the other way.  But if a goblin kills 10 other goblins, then the goblin get's defined as a traitor since his killing is obviously more than a personal spat.

Goblins aren't a unified force.  They routinely murder each other.  They only seem to unify when their leader or an outside threat forces them into it.

Mobs would generally be temporary, focused upon a specific issue or conflict, but the most powerful networks of cooperation and loyalty probably would develop into something rather like a local government.  When there are several large networks in the same site, I'd expect a lot of scheming and a bit of skirmishing to get more power within the site, but they'd usually avoid the sort of outright warfare that would attract the ruler's attention and is likely to get all the leaders swatted down.

It's all well and good to say that goblins who cause too much trouble get defined as traitors, but defined by who?  If they annoy the ruler, the ruler can declare them a traitor and mobilize everyone against them.  But short of that, it's just going to be the individuals who don't like them or consider them a threat, trying to convince enough others  to act that they can overwhelm the problem's supporters or intimidate them into switching sides.  In that context it doesn't matter much if the accusers are appealing to ethics against treason or to self interest.

@ZM5: Goblin societies actually function more like a chaotic Autocracy; i.e. the demon overlord does not care about how the goblins organize themselves as long as he/she/it is obeyed by these insignificant creatures.
The word I've seen that best describes the way vanilla goblins seem to operate is kratocracy - rule by the strong.  Authority rests with individuals who can manage to seize power, be it through force and threats, skillful negotiation and dealmaking, or sheer charisma and persuasion.  The overlord has control because they're the strongest of all.


I'd love to see the return of the old 'any appropriate power' religion type as a possibility, where goblins could be religiously devoted to their demon ruler, with priests and temples and such.  It would add more variety to the range of potential social structures.  Maybe when the myth arc gets here, it'll come back as a possible outcome.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #217 on: September 07, 2018, 04:55:44 pm »

@ZM5: Goblin societies actually function more like a chaotic Autocracy; i.e. the demon overlord does not care about how the goblins organize themselves as long as he/she/it is obeyed by these insignificant creatures.
The word I've seen that best describes the way vanilla goblins seem to operate is kratocracy - rule by the strong.  Authority rests with individuals who can manage to seize power, be it through force and threats, skillful negotiation and dealmaking, or sheer charisma and persuasion.  The overlord has control because they're the strongest of all.


I'd love to see the return of the old 'any appropriate power' religion type as a possibility, where goblins could be religiously devoted to their demon ruler, with priests and temples and such.  It would add more variety to the range of potential social structures.  Maybe when the myth arc gets here, it'll come back as a possible outcome.

"Kratocracy" huh?
I've never come across that word before.
Thanks for teaching me something new. ;)

After looking up "Kratocracy" I agree with you to a point.
"Kratocracy" almost perfectly describes goblins when it comes to their inter-species governance.
But when you account for the demon overlord it's more of an Autocracy where the undisputed leader allows his/her/its minions to govern themselves through "Kratocracy" as long as they fall in line under the demon overlord when commanded.
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LMeire

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #218 on: September 07, 2018, 06:25:47 pm »

IIRC the Inca used Necrocracy, a system where the first emperor essentially laid out a constitution/legal code and every leader since then had technically just been his regent "while the true emperor is away" making decisions that must be based on his ancient decrees to be valid. Obviously it's a bit too conservative to deal with outside-context problems like Pizarro, but overall it was fairly stable.

Would probably be a lot less symbolic with the power to speak to/raise the dead, though.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #219 on: September 09, 2018, 06:48:47 am »

Ah forget about it. I don't see why there couldn't be anarchist systems in df. I tend to view dwarves to be fairly anarchic in the way their society actually works. Also for a short time a people could be anarchist but then they are run over by other systems due to their inability to act quickly.

The reason is that Anarchism is pretty much impossible for the game to actually model, in the sense of Agent Smith in the Matrix "some believe that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world,".  The reason is that even if Anarchy were possible realistically, it is still not possible for the game to model an order somehow emerging from the individual decisions because of how individuals do not exist when we are not there.  How does a large number of people make decisions 'anarchistically' when they are not loaded to make those decisions?

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of versions of Anarchism, and none of them promise everything to everyone.  They just claim to be a better option than the alternatives.  Sure, you can probably find a few individuals who will promise everyone that anarchy will make their lives perfect, just like some insist that the free market will solve all problems if we just get out of its way, or the government can fix everything if given the chance.  But that isn't part of the actual political philosophy behind it - just advertising.

Also, DF is a fantasy world generator, not a political science research simulation.  It should be able to handle a wide variety of social and governmental structures, including ones that probably wouldn't work in reality, because lots of fantasy settings include societies that aren't very plausible.

It is not a question of whether it would work or not.  The free market does not work, unless you are a sociopath indifferent to human suffering but the free market is a coherant logical system; what it's proponants are saying is internally consistant.  Anarchism is completely illogical, it is the political equivalent of "have your cake and eat it too" as I said before; that means that a computer, as with reality cannot represent Anarchy as the Anarchists propose it.

The reason it is illogical is that Anarchists are both Socialists, therefore opposed to the free market and also opposed to government, hence in favour of the free market.  Free market happens whenever we have two independant parties not subject to the regulation of a common authority.  For instance, despite the total lack of any free market internal to the fortress, the exchange between the fortress and the caravan operates according to the free market.  This is not a question of what either party believes, presumably the dwarves do not believe in the free market but a question of the fact that both are equal parties that are not subject to the regulation of a third party means the free market applies regardless of what they believe in. 

If we got rid of all the positions and had the dwarves decide what the fortress does collectively without any positions; then we would still have Socialism, but we would not have Anarchy because it is fairly clear that the individual dwarves must still obey the authority of the fortress for things to work.  If we made things work pretty much as they do in Adventure mode then we would have the Free Market, meaning that even though there is no Authority there is no Anarchism either. 

Goblins aren't a unified force.  They routinely murder each other.  They only seem to unify when their leader or an outside threat forces them into it.

Mobs would generally be temporary, focused upon a specific issue or conflict, but the most powerful networks of cooperation and loyalty probably would develop into something rather like a local government.  When there are several large networks in the same site, I'd expect a lot of scheming and a bit of skirmishing to get more power within the site, but they'd usually avoid the sort of outright warfare that would attract the ruler's attention and is likely to get all the leaders swatted down.

It's all well and good to say that goblins who cause too much trouble get defined as traitors, but defined by who?  If they annoy the ruler, the ruler can declare them a traitor and mobilize everyone against them.  But short of that, it's just going to be the individuals who don't like them or consider them a threat, trying to convince enough others  to act that they can overwhelm the problem's supporters or intimidate them into switching sides.  In that context it doesn't matter much if the accusers are appealing to ethics against treason or to self interest.

Goblins routinely murder each-other.  That however does not mean they are not a unified force, in fact not so long ago it was entirely legal for people to have duels and kill each-other entirely legally.  Goblin murders are less honorable but essentially they are the same, that the idea that individuals killing other individuals and being allowed to do so means no unified society is not correct. 

The goblins would be defined as traitors by the goblin judge.  That would basically be the only crime on the book, all crimes would be considered forms of treason and all crimes would be punished with death.  Individuals would be free to steal from and kill from each-other, but if they do anything more organized they would be executed as traitors, since their actions are now undermining the goblin state/society. 

The word I've seen that best describes the way vanilla goblins seem to operate is kratocracy - rule by the strong.  Authority rests with individuals who can manage to seize power, be it through force and threats, skillful negotiation and dealmaking, or sheer charisma and persuasion.  The overlord has control because they're the strongest of all.

In other words, they are a government. 
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #220 on: September 09, 2018, 08:28:17 am »

I think philosophical debates between philosophers ahould unlock civ secrets. These secrets give civilizations reforms of government and societies. Furthermore, philosophical texts should influence public opinions.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #221 on: September 09, 2018, 11:11:08 am »

I think philosophical debates between philosophers ahould unlock civ secrets. These secrets give civilizations reforms of government and societies. Furthermore, philosophical texts should influence public opinions.
Just knowing about a type of governance and what it entails philosophically does not result in the greater majority of a society/civilization into reforming to that type of governance.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #222 on: September 09, 2018, 01:23:55 pm »

True but knowing about it adds the possibility.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #223 on: September 09, 2018, 04:29:27 pm »

True but knowing about it adds the possibility.
Not really.
All knowledge does is put a name to the concept a group promotes.

RL example: Even if we had not known of Anarcho-Capitalism there would still be groups promoting the foundational ideas that we connect to the name Anarcho-Capitalism.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 10:07:43 am by Miles_Umbrae »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #224 on: September 09, 2018, 06:29:21 pm »

Okay. So how about these discussions produce procedural society facets with rng names with points like slavery yes no, independence: 90, Judge Position for each site: yes no...
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