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Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 31870 times)

PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2018, 05:59:06 pm »

If I recall correctly, there was a study which indicated that violent games were an outlet for violent tendencies.  Just imagine if a child were full of energy and instead of letting them burn it off in a park, we kept them locked in a small room.  It's obvious which one solves the problem of having too much energy and which one results in penning it up until the child literally explodes, throwing gibs everywhere and slapping passersby with arcing limbs.
Yeah. If anything, violent video games REDUCE violence. It's better if some extremely frustrated and angry 13-year-old brutalizes some peasants in DF than if he brutalizes his peers IRL.

Also such kids usually name there Dwarves after there enemies so its a warning sign to parents and friends something is off.
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2018, 06:01:26 pm »

Here is in general what I feel should be added in to DF;

Groups: Civs have values, civs have customs, civs have constitutions and laws, civs have, institutions, government agencies, civs have religions, civs can own items, land, buildings, people, and intellectual property. Civs can be Communists, Capitalists, Feudalists, Theocracies, Republics, Democracies, Monarchies, Constitutionl Monarchies, Anarchists. There is civ and site government which are of the same type so no Capitalist civ with a Communist town of St. Georgia.

For religion it has to do with the values of a specific civilization and if a certain religion conflicts with them or if the population is lied to like and told it conflicts with them (People can also lie about a certain race being savages to cause a racist value to exist in a government) like Hitler so a certain value might be the outlaw of a certain religion in this case Judaism and the Hebrew and Judah race this could also happen for homosexuals or certain fetishes.

Make it so racism, sexism, and religion acan be civ and religious values cough cough AS ANYONE WOULD EXPECT FOR A GAME LIKE DWARF FORTRESS cough cough. This way a civs  or sites value is determined for racism is there is a coin flip for arch-race (Elf, human, dwarf, goblin etc) discrimination being a thing or no. Another way is if what people are in power and if they as individuals are racist or how many sites have racist government or majority racist populations etc. If yes there can be no more than 2 accepted arch-races or only 1. Then there is a coin flip for discrimination of traits of individuals of allowed races if yes then dice rolls for what traits are deemed allowed or superior (which is another dice roll)for example skin color, hair color, eye color, height, ear length, nose size ect.

Add castes, so certain professions get more respect than others, so lets say a pump operator or hauler are a low caste and are not aloud to vote and are not respected much. While a miner, smith and military dwarf are considered high castes with renown and repect and if they vote there vote is worth 2 of the lowest caste allowed to vote. This could be a civ value or a religious value. religions and civs are coded the same. But civs always have higher priority of power unless a civ in a theocracy. So a civ with a no killing value will veto a religious value of the killing of members of another religion, unless said civ is a theocracy.

For leaders being chosen make it so it by heritage, by force, by challenge of mind, might or skill, by vote (In some civs children can vote in most not, sometimes certain races cant vote, sometimes certain members of a religion cant) by choice of another entity for example the current king chooses the next or a deity chooses the leader, or random pick of a Dwarf. In some civs child labor is a thing. Make it so there are certain rituals that must be performed so a Bishop must drink from the water of a certain holy ground to become Pontiff. So lets say that ground is taken by enemies chaos ensues since no new Pontiff can arise. Or a royal must be crowned on a certain artifact throne to become king but if the throne is stolen the kingdom erupts into civil wars.

Trading: Trading should be based off negative and positive point system between specific sites and civs as a whole. And is self explanatory what effects it seeing as what I've already talked about.


Systems: Torture. More info about items, thickness, length, actually where things are engraves on. Do the same thing for entities too. Make it so you can read books. Make it so dwarves can write and share music, give dwarves memories of smells, sounds, colors, places, ideas, items and people they remember which the player can look at. Intellectual property. Give entities fetishes, height, body part, skin color, animal people if there furries. Add in pedophile dwarves too. Add in pronouns since if there are idiots in real life there must too be in DF. Why not have it be a thing of certain civ or religion customs. Make it so pleasing dwarves is trickier and give a reason to make items for dwarves of a certain matierial they like or something to stop them from tantruming. Becuase at the moment its too easy to make dwarves happy.


Items:

Pots, Cooking pots, pans, trays, shifting pans, tablets.

Weapons:  Sabers, scimitars, rapiers, glaives, Japanese swords, gladius, arming swords, long swords, short swords, great swords, zwiehanders, dane axes, curves swords of each variety, war hammers one sides, war hammer 2 sides, war picks, war hammer plus war pick all of these in 2 sizes, trebuchet, catapult, ring axes of 2 sizes, crescent axes, war shovels, slings, giant slings, giant sling shots, great bows, staves, muskets, puckle guns, Gatling guns, musket revolvers, cannons, grenades, beenades, liquid grenades, Holy Hand Grenades that serenade, gas grenades, Molotov cocktails, semi auto rifles, bolt actions rifles, air rifles, spring rifles, automatic rifles, multi barreled rifles, rotary cannons, artillery, rockets, incendiary, HE, High Velocity, AP, tracer, liquid coated bullets, standard, rubber, magic, blanks, and hollow point ammunition types.

Spells: Look at DnD CRPG's and Dark souls spells and Elderscrolls spells. A portal that opens up to the arrow dimension and arrows fly out. Do the same thing with bullets. And swords or potions, any small items.

Performance: Thread support (I know this is impossible at the moment), GPU support.

Misc: Add in a default world that looks like earth. So all the bioms are the same but not areas them selves.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 02:02:37 pm by PlatinumSun »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2018, 06:58:21 pm »

I did read it  ;)

I was referring to Miles_Umbrane not you.
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2018, 06:59:43 pm »

The only difference between a Monarchy and a Dictatorship is as follows; the Line of Succession, the Title, and title of those legitimizing your power.
Other than that it is depending on your own acts if you are a benevolent or malevolent leader.
A dictator is pretty much a president for life with a bit more power.

No no no, you have UNLIMITED POWAHR!. Otherwise your correct. If your benevolent or malevolent has nothing to do as to how you have gotten into power or how much power you have.

Miles_Umbrane here is the actual definition: https://www.google.ca/search?q=dictator+definition&rlz=1C1MSNA_enCA669CA669&oq=d&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i65j69i57j69i60l2j69i61.1046j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:08:19 pm by PlatinumSun »
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2018, 07:09:53 pm »

Your idea seems pretty nice. Of course the levels of privileges should be broad and well defined.
With your picture i can envision a theocracy backed by military (god of war and swords). The generals are equal to low priests and may vote on bishops and the grand bishop/pope who is the de facto leader. A theocratic monarchy of a god of birth religion might install a king who's son will become the next by birthright.

To add to your suggestion: Maybe there could be certain jobs available to certain classes. A dwarf civ might consider smithing to be sacred and therefore only members of the chucrch are allowed to smith. Or the same civ might consider fishing as a low job so only immigrants and criminals may fish and this could create bad thoughts in them because the job is considered low.


I would also like to see symbolism within the government types. A new king HAS TO be crowned on Shimmerrock the Fall of Kings an artifact throne, and if the throne is stolen it creates a huge crisis because the country cant crown legitimately anymore.

Lastly, I would like privileged classes to partake in events that could shape the course of the civ as described earlier by me. In that theocracy of war, generals could come up with different plans of action and then wrestle over which course to take while in a democracy the same military issue might be voted on. It is fun when the leader of the religion of the god of games is decided by playing a sacred game... ( Urist McGamey has become Pope, as he won the sacred game of monopoly)

Yes this is a great Idea.
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2018, 08:54:59 pm »

I agree with PlatinumSun. Though goblins should be 100% racist.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2018, 09:21:32 pm »

I agree with PlatinumSun. Though goblins should be 100% racist.
Should they? Right now goblins have [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100], which actually makes them the least bigoted race. Presumably, they hate everyone equally, without regard for colour or creed.
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #112 on: August 18, 2018, 06:08:55 am »

I agree with PlatinumSun. Though goblins should be 100% racist.
Should they? Right now goblins have [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100], which actually makes them the least bigoted race. Presumably, they hate everyone equally, without regard for colour or creed.

Goblins believe in equality of prejudice, everyone gets shit.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #113 on: August 18, 2018, 06:28:33 am »

What source are you using?

Wrong and right is not a mere question of sources.  In any case you seem to be derailing this topic into a discussion of video game violence, I do not really feel like cooperating but it seems you have already succeeded in your derail.

I understand your reasoning against racost depiction in the game , though I think many people would actually play the slave. I would lve to play the dwarf fortress version of spartacus killing his master and leading a revolution against the slaver empire. Without adding this kind of discrimination we won't see such a story where the oppressed overcomes the oppressor.

This is where there is a difference between for instance a book and a video game like DF.  In a book you can write from the perspective of the slave and then write the narrative so that there is still an interesting story.  Realistically however, if you play as a slave you are going to be bored out of your brain since all you will end up doing is hauling items about and if you try to do anything exciting to move the story along, you will just be crushed by overwhelming force and punished.  A story can write it so that this slave just happens to be the right guy at exactly the right time, but odds are that the slave you play is not going to be Spartacus (not that the real Spartacus won). 

In a computer game, the player aims to win.  That means if given a choice between the boot and the human face, the player is going to fight as hard as they can to be the boot.  Adding social classes into the game results in that choice, since all the roles the typical player is interested in playing are those of the ruling class in society.  Slaves don't get to wander the world, armed to the teeth in order to slay dragons; knights do.

Should they? Right now goblins have [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100], which actually makes them the least bigoted race. Presumably, they hate everyone equally, without regard for colour or creed.

Indeed, the social oppressions if they have to exist at all should reflect the personality and values of the creature.  We could come up with a sort of strawman version of each personality-facet/value and when the civilization's is the villain we make the strawman come true.

So you guys want to have that video game debate that nobody asked for?

Art does influence the beliefs of its beholders just as anything does. Art pieces are small beacons of ideas floating through time space... At times fiction becomes reality to some... An atheist might say, afterall so many billions believe that the crucifiction and reaurecction of a carpenter was real and this belief still shapes societies. Tribal beliefs shape the behaviour of the tribes too so one surely can argue that literature and art shapes the mind. Its kind of ridiculous that you made me point it out.

Also it is interesting to note that some of you are fighting FOr the introduction of torture in the game vehemently while trying to portray someone who is against it as the insane one... Maybe if we'd agree that we disagree on some matters would lead to an actual discussion about dwarf fortress instead of continuous insult rants of opposing world views.

Torture in itself does not imply the existence of distinct social classes, which I am generally against.  Torture is really just a word for 'punishment nastier than I consider acceptable', so in itself it is a fairly subjective concept.

I would LOVE to see your source for your claim that racism barely existed in medieval times
And I would also LOVE to see your source for your claim that fiction influences reality.

Seriously, out of genuine scholarly curiosity I actually would love to see those sources.
Because every time I've come across someone making those claims they've either turned to ad hominem attacks or they have completely ignored my request

Here comes the proving of a negative; racism does not exist in the middle ages because no sources exist to establish that it does and it is not necessary to explain anything.  As for the other point I have made a rather lengthy argument for how fiction would influence reality already, I suggest you reread it.  It is to do with perspective, that is to say it is about empathy/lack of empathy for a party, if you play as a bloody tyrant, then you will empathize with bloody tyrants more than you would otherwise. 

The alternative to what I am saying verges on the ridiculous.  It would in effect be saying that a person that assumes a role does not empathize with others that are in the same position as himself. 

IF fiction influenced people the way and to the severity it is claimed then why are we NOT seeing a radical increase in violence among teens and young adults; i.e. the primary target demographic for shooter games.

Because in the real-world there are other factors at work.  If something more powerful is working in the other direction to reduce violence in teens and young adults, then it is entirely possible for there to be a negative effect from violent games but because this is weaker than the other factor working in the other direction the overall trend is still down.

You also disregard the fundamental attribution fallacy.  If a person is more violent, it does not mean that will act violently more, that requires the correct environment.  A violent person in a peaceful environment, is still likely going to be nonviolent.  It is only when placed in a confrontational environment that the differences in character will show.

Goblins believe in equality of prejudice, everyone gets shit.

A statement that does not make any sense at all. 
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #114 on: August 18, 2018, 07:45:59 am »

Oh look, CrumblingCookie, er, GoblinCookie is back!

The thing that matters is not "video games make kids theoretically more violent, so they're bad". It is "there is no practical difference (other factors counteract the increase in violence), so it doesn't matter anyway, as the effect is almost nonexistent".
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 11:29:18 am by KittyTac »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #115 on: August 18, 2018, 07:46:40 am »

What source are you using?

Wrong and right is not a mere question of sources.  In any case you seem to be derailing this topic into a discussion of video game violence, I do not really feel like cooperating but it seems you have already succeeded in your derail.

I understand your reasoning against racost depiction in the game , though I think many people would actually play the slave. I would lve to play the dwarf fortress version of spartacus killing his master and leading a revolution against the slaver empire. Without adding this kind of discrimination we won't see such a story where the oppressed overcomes the oppressor.

This is where there is a difference between for instance a book and a video game like DF.  In a book you can write from the perspective of the slave and then write the narrative so that there is still an interesting story.  Realistically however, if you play as a slave you are going to be bored out of your brain since all you will end up doing is hauling items about and if you try to do anything exciting to move the story along, you will just be crushed by overwhelming force and punished.  A story can write it so that this slave just happens to be the right guy at exactly the right time, but odds are that the slave you play is not going to be Spartacus (not that the real Spartacus won). 

In a computer game, the player aims to win.  That means if given a choice between the boot and the human face, the player is going to fight as hard as they can to be the boot.  Adding social classes into the game results in that choice, since all the roles the typical player is interested in playing are those of the ruling class in society.  Slaves don't get to wander the world, armed to the teeth in order to slay dragons; knights do.

Should they? Right now goblins have [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100], which actually makes them the least bigoted race. Presumably, they hate everyone equally, without regard for colour or creed.

Indeed, the social oppressions if they have to exist at all should reflect the personality and values of the creature.  We could come up with a sort of strawman version of each personality-facet/value and when the civilization's is the villain we make the strawman come true.

So you guys want to have that video game debate that nobody asked for?

Art does influence the beliefs of its beholders just as anything does. Art pieces are small beacons of ideas floating through time space... At times fiction becomes reality to some... An atheist might say, afterall so many billions believe that the crucifiction and reaurecction of a carpenter was real and this belief still shapes societies. Tribal beliefs shape the behaviour of the tribes too so one surely can argue that literature and art shapes the mind. Its kind of ridiculous that you made me point it out.

Also it is interesting to note that some of you are fighting FOr the introduction of torture in the game vehemently while trying to portray someone who is against it as the insane one... Maybe if we'd agree that we disagree on some matters would lead to an actual discussion about dwarf fortress instead of continuous insult rants of opposing world views.

Torture in itself does not imply the existence of distinct social classes, which I am generally against.  Torture is really just a word for 'punishment nastier than I consider acceptable', so in itself it is a fairly subjective concept.

I would LOVE to see your source for your claim that racism barely existed in medieval times
And I would also LOVE to see your source for your claim that fiction influences reality.

Seriously, out of genuine scholarly curiosity I actually would love to see those sources.
Because every time I've come across someone making those claims they've either turned to ad hominem attacks or they have completely ignored my request

Here comes the proving of a negative; racism does not exist in the middle ages because no sources exist to establish that it does and it is not necessary to explain anything.  As for the other point I have made a rather lengthy argument for how fiction would influence reality already, I suggest you reread it.  It is to do with perspective, that is to say it is about empathy/lack of empathy for a party, if you play as a bloody tyrant, then you will empathize with bloody tyrants more than you would otherwise. 

The alternative to what I am saying verges on the ridiculous.  It would in effect be saying that a person that assumes a role does not empathize with others that are in the same position as himself. 

IF fiction influenced people the way and to the severity it is claimed then why are we NOT seeing a radical increase in violence among teens and young adults; i.e. the primary target demographic for shooter games.

Because in the real-world there are other factors at work.  If something more powerful is working in the other direction to reduce violence in teens and young adults, then it is entirely possible for there to be a negative effect from violent games but because this is weaker than the other factor working in the other direction the overall trend is still down.

You also disregard the fundamental attribution fallacy.  If a person is more violent, it does not mean that will act violently more, that requires the correct environment.  A violent person in a peaceful environment, is still likely going to be nonviolent.  It is only when placed in a confrontational environment that the differences in character will show.

Goblins believe in equality of prejudice, everyone gets shit.

A statement that does not make any sense at all.

Yes your correct racism did not exist in middle age Europe. Who cares. I want all the differant possibilities. This is DF not a historical documentary.

Look GoblinCookies, you the derailer, someone wanted torture added in to get information out of people or as punishment. You said I dont want it in because it hurts my sensibilities stop talking about it your derailing. He said he wanted it in the GAME as a SYSTEM AND FEATURE TO GET INFORMATION AND PUNISHMENT. YOU said no becuase of REAL LIFE implications you did the derailing if anything.

Any way who derialed what aside. The idea that we shouldnt allow violence in games becuase a violent person might do something violent is stupid. Becuase the kiddie winks poor little malleable minds. Look this game has ASCII graphics I dont a violent child will be that interested in it. Very few children even play this game. And they most likely wont get the kick they want vs playing school shooting sim. Besides these sorts of children who just want to watch the world burn like Elliot Rogers was imagining doing awful things in his head anyways. Having a kid play Doom wont have any effect like making them commit murder. Having mental illness becuase of shit parents or abuse or social deprivity is what causes this. And the idea if you play as a tyrant you will emphasize with them and turn into some evil horrible person is absolutely ludicrous. So I want your honest opinion should violent games be banned?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 08:04:13 am by PlatinumSun »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #116 on: August 18, 2018, 04:28:56 pm »

Oh look, CrumblingCookie, er, GoblinCookie is back!

The thing that matters is not "video games make kids theoretically more violent, so they're bad". It is "there is no practical difference (other factors counteract the increase in violence), so it doesn't matter anyway, as the effect is almost nonexistent".
Uncalled for he presented his views in a decent diplomatic manner and has maybe made some comments that you do not agree on...

Also gooblincookie torture is not only used as punishment, sometimes as enjoyment, sometimes to gain information. It is a highly debated topic and brushing it off with one sentece like harsher than I want punishment you are indeed misdirected with your thinking, as you showcase that you are dismissing such a delicate issue while vehemently fighting for another quite similar issue... I mean if you feel that way it's good for you.

"Yes your correct racism did not exist in middle age Europe. Who cares. I want all the differant possibilities. This is DF not a historical documentary."
Exactly this. People want certain stuff in you don't like, so the middleground is people start creating united visions to actually make all people somewhat happy. In my opinion concepts such as classes and other social issues that humanity faced should be included to an extent that the simulation feels wholesome, and still playable and fun. I would have fun to free slaves from a slaver civ and then leading them to create a peaceful settlement from the ashes of their oppressors. Or imagine a woman wrestler who saves a young cheese maker in distress and they fall in love... These stories happen because of conflict, so therefore there should be levels of conflicts for these similar to the real world, unless they overcame them by ingenieuity of history gen.

I believe many people would love to play underdogs. I for one play demi-god but I heard of many who start as peasent outsider, which is a underdog story for itself.
Maybe most social classes shouldnt be portrayed so rigid more lenient than in real life though...
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #117 on: August 18, 2018, 10:00:59 pm »

This is where there is a difference between for instance a book and a video game like DF.  In a book you can write from the perspective of the slave and then write the narrative so that there is still an interesting story. Realistically however, if you play as a slave you are going to be bored out of your brain since all you will end up doing is hauling items about and if you try to do anything exciting to move the story along, you will just be crushed by overwhelming force and punished.  A story can write it so that this slave just happens to be the right guy at exactly the right time, but odds are that the slave you play is not going to be Spartacus (not that the real Spartacus won).
All you really have to do is wander off when nobody is looking and don't get caught. If you can make it to somewhere you won't be recognized, you're basically an outsider peasant.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2018, 12:48:21 am »


This is where there is a difference between for instance a book and a video game like DF.  In a book you can write from the perspective of the slave and then write the narrative so that there is still an interesting story.  Realistically however, if you play as a slave you are going to be bored out of your brain since all you will end up doing is hauling items about and if you try to do anything exciting to move the story along, you will just be crushed by overwhelming force and punished.  A story can write it so that this slave just happens to be the right guy at exactly the right time, but odds are that the slave you play is not going to be Spartacus (not that the real Spartacus won). 

In a computer game, the player aims to win.  That means if given a choice between the boot and the human face, the player is going to fight as hard as they can to be the boot.  Adding social classes into the game results in that choice, since all the roles the typical player is interested in playing are those of the ruling class in society.  Slaves don't get to wander the world, armed to the teeth in order to slay dragons; knights do.


I'd like to stress that this isn't necessarily a problem. Dwarf fortress is a very detailed game, but it is not even remotely realistic. Furthermore, it will never be realistic, as the core premise of the game is unrealistic (i.e. Dwarves building subterranean kingdoms and fighting megabeasts, etc). At one point the most feared creature in the game was a giant sponge, for goodness sake.

Sure, we can rationalize thing like magma smelting away by arguing that they are somehow feasible in the fantasy setting, but we could do that for ANY game mechanic, including run away slaves starting their own isolated colony (or running off in adventure mode). Thus, not being realistic isn't a convincing counter-argument for me. I do understand where you are coming from though.

One way around the moral hazard of discrimination would be to make it come at a price. Say you are founding a new fort ruled by some horrible fascist regime. You're starting 7 won't be high ranking officials, they'll be ordinary dwarves looking for a new shot at life. Great. You get a few immigrants. That's great too. You're fort grows nicely and everyone is happy. Then the central government send an official to oversee your fort. Your legendary armoursmith turns out to be a secret worshipper of the Goddess Delga, so he gets put to death and your Mayor gets hammered for allowing it. Your Delga worshipping doctor suddenly disappears one day too. You're not sure what happened, but since there's no body you just assume he ran away before he got caught. You then find only the Pureblooded are allowed to perform any crafts, and lesser dwarves must clean fish and haul. And the local administrator has a nasty habit of sentencing anyone to death he likes, irrespective of how useful they are. Then the persecuted dwarves attempt an insurrection. Guess who the player is going to side with?

Is that realistic? Perhaps not. But it addresses the problem with discrimination while allowing for the mechanics tp drive narratives. And if the player doesn't want to be tlruled by racist a-holes, they can choose another civ.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2018, 02:20:36 am »

>The horrible things we can do in DF

Guys I have not read the novels written on this thread but those discussion always go the same way since the first GTA was ever released, so here goes my two cents.

As I usually try and play the good guy, I'll defend with the last energy the right of people to mutilate, exterminate, brutalize and discriminate virtual people.

Three reasons :
One : it's an open sandbox game, so it's par for the course. Yeah some people play sims 3 with the intent of killing their sims, big deal I know.
Two : because having evil expressed in a safe and harmless environment have a pretty much proven positive effect on human psyche. Sometimes you just want to punch a Dick and it's better if that Dick is virtual. (Dick is the name of a dude)
Three : Because even if you play the good guy, you need an evil foil if you want your quest to have a modicum of meaning. Yeah, playing the revolting slave necessitate you have a slave country on your board. It sucks but it's just plain common sense. People who want to erase the things that contradict their agenda are just sawing the branch onto which they sit. You may not like conservatives, but if you're going to play LCS you'll need them at some point, yes?

Frankly to me the limit is that : is that legal to despict X or Y scene ? If it is, then case close. Play the game as you want and enjoy the ride you chose. If you're going to approach DF with a soccermom mentality, at some point you have to realize you're doing things wrong.
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