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[KittyTac]

If I recall correctly, there was a study which indicated that violent games were an outlet for violent tendencies.  Just imagine if a child were full of energy and instead of letting them burn it off in a park, we kept them locked in a small room.  It's obvious which one solves the problem of having too much energy and which one results in penning it up until the child literally explodes, throwing gibs everywhere and slapping passersby with arcing limbs.

Yeah. If anything, violent video games REDUCE violence. It's better if some extremely frustrated and angry 13-year-old brutalizes some peasants in DF than if he brutalizes his peers IRL.

[Miles_Umbrae]

If I recall correctly, there was a study which indicated that violent games were an outlet for violent tendencies.  Just imagine if a child were full of energy and instead of letting them burn it off in a park, we kept them locked in a small room.  It's obvious which one solves the problem of having too much energy and which one results in penning it up until the child literally explodes, throwing gibs everywhere and slapping passersby with arcing limbs.

Yeah. If anything, violent video games REDUCE violence. It's better if some extremely frustrated and angry 13-year-old brutalizes some peasants in DF than if he brutalizes his peers IRL.

Let's put Urist McFumbleFingers in the rack and make him human!
That should make him think twice before spilling beer on the king again...

[Detoxicated]

So you guys want to have that video game debate that nobody asked for?

Art does influence the beliefs of its beholders just as anything does. Art pieces are small beacons of ideas floating through time space... At times fiction becomes reality to some... An atheist might say, afterall so many billions believe that the crucifiction and reaurecction of a carpenter was real and this belief still shapes societies. Tribal beliefs shape the behaviour of the tribes too so one surely can argue that literature and art shapes the mind. Its kind of ridiculous that you made me point it out.

Also it is interesting to note that some of you are fighting FOr the introduction of torture in the game vehemently while trying to portray someone who is against it as the insane one... Maybe if we'd agree that we disagree on some matters would lead to an actual discussion about dwarf fortress instead of continuous insult rants of opposing world views.

[Miles_Umbrae]

My take on GoblinCookie's claim that racism didn't exist in the middle ages is that he is referring to white supremacism.

He is talking about racism in general because he is referencing other forms of generalised hatred/bigotry/discrimination such as sexism and homophobia.
And racism was actually quite common(though instances of easily different ethnic people crossing paths was rare due to distances and traveltimes) in medieval times.

[KittyTac]

So you guys want to have that video game debate that nobody asked for?

Art does influence the beliefs of its beholders just as anything does. Art pieces are small beacons of ideas floating through time space... At times fiction becomes reality to some... An atheist might say, afterall so many billions believe that the crucifiction and reaurecction of a carpenter was real and this belief still shapes societies. Tribal beliefs shape the behaviour of the tribes too so one surely can argue that literature and art shapes the mind. Its kind of ridiculous that you made me point it out.

Also it is interesting to note that some of you are fighting FOr the introduction of torture in the game vehemently while trying to portray someone who is against it as the insane one... Maybe if we'd agree that we disagree on some matters would lead to an actual discussion about dwarf fortress instead of continuous insult rants of opposing world views.

My point is backed by scientific studies. Violent video games only make their players less violent by producing an outlet for violent tendencies.

And I'm actually for implementing racism if it was around pre-1400 (and it was).

[Detoxicated]

Okay then please provide me with a link. I have no sources as of now but consider this: To say it is absolutely impossible that violence in video games could strengthen aggressive and violent behaviour is just as outrageous as promoting the opposite. There has been connections at shootings in the past and it wasn't all media hype. If you desire to delve deeper on the matter we should do that elsewhere, not in this thread.

[Splint]

Racism in dwarf fortress sounds more like it'd stem from drastically different cultures, which could affect how new entities might form.

Goblins in general are massive jerks, so even a nice one or say, an elf or human raised by them, is gonna have to deal with bullshit because of the perception of all goblins (and as a result anyone raised by them,) being absolute pricks.

Same goes for that one elf who actually doesn't care if other people chop down trees, or that dwarf who personally holds good craftsmanship in disdain - in general, elves are seen as tree fondling hippies and they have to work extremely hard to be accepted fully as dwarves (which I admit in this case I really refer to the playerbase in general, as there's few elves who enjoy open embrace by it,) and that dwarf is  presumably gonna be press-ganged into a crafting job in a non-dwarven settlement because it's assumed he'll be a decent craftsman or strive to be one, even if he doesn't give two shits about making good products and would rather swing a sword or smelt ore instead.

That being said, there's nothing stopping an elf, goblin, or whatever becoming a king or queen, because they're presumably the best qualified for the job (or were able to browbeat everyone else nearby into letting them take the job,) when honestly unless raised in a given civ, it's not really likely everyone would just accept that there's an elf, goblin, hamster man or what have you suddenly in power now  when dwarves have always ruled the civ.

This potentially leads to either serious pushback and the new non-dwarf leader being deposed somewhat peacefully, or to full-blown civil wars, which can lead to an entity splitting up or changing its government type, such as Party A remaining a hereditary monarchy that is strictly dwarves only in leadership, while B is a non-hereditary one that goes to the best qualified regardless of species (or simply the loudest one, take your pick.)

Those are just random examples, and won't apply so much when civs become a bit more randomized, but still.

The mention of tortue makes me imagine how justice could be dispensed in some civs, specifically via TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE - the justice unit sets out to cause pain as restitution, and tries to break bones or tear skin instead of just generally wailing on someone like in a beating. For example, a murderer might have thier legs and arms broken, plus the isolation caused by being intraction.

Which could lead to some surreal stuff via the random generation of stuff like a despotic state that finds torture abhorrent (preferring to exile trouble-makers rather than needlessly injure people who haven't done anything damaging to the state) while there's some republic that views it as an acceptable form of punishment for serious crimes (and viewing exile as worse than torture because you separate someone from most of thier family and friends,) or a gender-egalitarian monarchy next door to a highly bigoted theocracy that views males as inferior (with both offending the sensibilities of the other in that area, but both taking umbrage with the exile and torture punishments the despot and republic have.)

My apologies for the stream of consciousness there.

[KittyTac]

Okay then please provide me with a link. I have no sources as of now but consider this: To say it is absolutely impossible that violence in video games could strengthen aggressive and violent behaviour is just as outrageous as promoting the opposite. There has been connections at shootings in the past and it wasn't all media hype. If you desire to delve deeper on the matter we should do that elsewhere, not in this thread.

Ask Rowanas. He knows more about this stuff and could provide a better source. Now, could you please provide me with links to said descriptions of shootings caused by games?

[Miles_Umbrae]

So you guys want to have that video game debate that nobody asked for?

Art does influence the beliefs of its beholders just as anything does. Art pieces are small beacons of ideas floating through time space... At times fiction becomes reality to some... An atheist might say, afterall so many billions believe that the crucifiction and reaurecction of a carpenter was real and this belief still shapes societies. Tribal beliefs shape the behaviour of the tribes too so one surely can argue that literature and art shapes the mind. Its kind of ridiculous that you made me point it out.

Also it is interesting to note that some of you are fighting FOr the introduction of torture in the game vehemently while trying to portray someone who is against it as the insane one... Maybe if we'd agree that we disagree on some matters would lead to an actual discussion about dwarf fortress instead of continuous insult rants of opposing world views.

IF fiction influenced people the way and to the severity it is claimed then why are we NOT seeing a radical increase in violence among teens and young adults; i.e. the primary target demographic for shooter games.

[Detoxicated]

I never spoke of severity actually but there are cases where the people involved in shootings had been massive players of such games, though there might not be a correlation.
To back YOUR argument actually, apparantly the youth crime has dropped significantly in the US, over the past 10-15 years. So this must not be connected to video games per se but it COULD be interrelated.

[Miles_Umbrae]

I never spoke of severity actually but there are cases where the people involved in shootings had been massive players of such games, though there might not be a correlation.
To back YOUR argument actually, apparantly the youth crime has dropped significantly in the US, over the past 10-15 years. So this must not be connected to video games per se but it COULD be interrelated.

In the cases I believe you are referring to it was shown that they were all troubled youth with a lot of social and/or mental baggage, all known contributing factors to violent dysfunctional individuals.

[KittyTac]

Spoiler: Relevant (click to show/hide)

[Detoxicated]

Thank you yes. There was a fair consideration that these games partially contributed to the shootings. I did not want to make it seem like it was the norm but you shouldn't forget about that either.
Portrayal of such Offtopics has to be done in a delicate way or else it becomes a depravity machine void of any story, but at the same time there needs to be a certain level of realism to appease reality...
So looking at the ethics tags we have now we can see that slavery and torture is already presented and therefore intended in one way or another. Instead of going into detail of tfe atrocities of these things let us look how a civ could act depending on their ethics.

Allowed slavery should have slaves worked in that the economy depends on it.
Somewhat accepted slavery should have the occasional dlave gained from trade of individuals. Slavery is in no way promoted even frowned upon in lower ranks. Then there should be societies that punish slavery by one degree or another. There is no slaves only in secrecy and they are punished by law if caught.
Unacceptable Unthinkable would bring civilizations to attack others based on their slavery, similar to elves going to war with others for wood.

[Miles_Umbrae]

Thank you yes. There was a fair consideration that these games partially contributed to the shootings. I did not want to make it seem like it was the norm but you shouldn't forget about that either.
Portrayal of such Offtopics has to be done in a delicate way or else it becomes a depravity machine void of any story, but at the same time there needs to be a certain level of realism to appease reality...

Why should we tread carefully when portraying violence?
Are you saying that there is a definitive link between fictional violence and real-life violence?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

[Detoxicated]

Thank you yes. There was a fair consideration that these games partially contributed to the shootings. I did not want to make it seem like it was the norm but you shouldn't forget about that either.
Portrayal of such Offtopics has to be done in a delicate way or else it becomes a depravity machine void of any story, but at the same time there needs to be a certain level of realism to appease reality...

Why should we tread carefully when portraying violence?
Are you saying that there is a definitive link between fictional violence and real-life violence?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

No but at this point i realized that you like polarizing...
I am saying that violence in video games is a delicate subject invoking strong emotions for many as the diacussion shows, and therefore you as a developer should tread this topic carefully and with lots of thought to not piss people off too much.

So what i was wondering was if you want certain elements like torture in the game so you can roleplay being a torturer?

Edit:
The article says that there was moxed results and measured by choosing words... Thank you for providing your source it is interesting to read anyway, but the articles ends on the term further studies are needed and therefore it can't still be considered impossible that there can be links between virtual and real violence.