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Author Topic: Half-Breeds  (Read 2626 times)

Unknown72

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Half-Breeds
« on: July 28, 2018, 03:57:43 pm »

I figure for a game like Dwarf Fortress, steeped in the fantasy setting as it is, Half-Breeds and the capability to make them would be something highly regarded. I'd love to find some Half-Treehuggers, some Half-Dwarves, some Half-orcs, that kinda thing. Though i imagine you'd have to also add a [BREED_COMPATIBILITY:<civ here>] tag, otherwise you'd have people making half-breeds with anything, and i mean anything, and I think i can speak for all of us that we don't want to see any half-sheep half-humans walking around (cause only a human would do such a depraved thing).
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 04:52:21 pm »

They already seem to be planned for the (very) long-term, check out the Threetoe stories "Snatcher" and "Half-Dwarf" for examples.
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Unknown72

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 04:59:26 pm »

They already seem to be planned for the (very) long-term, check out the Threetoe stories "Snatcher" and "Half-Dwarf" for examples.

Ah right, I was informed that Dwarf Fortress content is also based off of Three-toe stories, but googling for them didn't pop up any for me, turns out i just searching the wrong thing. Thanks for the info!
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You guys ought to fix Unknown72's turn to some point later in the order. Maybe after Sanctume. Normally that's what happens when someone fesses up to having real life going up like a storm of explosive diarrhoea blasted into a fan.

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Starver

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 05:36:06 pm »

(Not having looked in-depth into the Dev notes surrounding this...) The big thing might be, rather than copious compatibility tags (though they might help indicate where it's worth bothering, for non-procedural creations) the relative similarity of bodyplans between the parents.

From the loosest of side definitions (creatures of differing sizes may have to form a child either at or between their two parental-race size limits¹; do they inherit infection-resistance or not? What moral codes do they intrinsically have before upbringing factors in) to particular elements (tail or no tail? What range of skin-colours? Nails or claws on hands and/or feet? Plantigrade biped or digitigrade quadruped, nominally? Would a centaur arise (hexapod with foremost pair as non-loading arms) in mixing the two with the risk of an armless biped form if mixed otherwise?) or would you mostly risk a satyr-like bodyform (when the forelimbs don't choose to follow the leg form sufficiently)?

Someone more familiar than I with the raws (an estsblished race-modder?) could tell you how much obvious compatibility there is between various obvious races (Human and Dwarf/Elf/Goblin, for starters) and then whether centaurs/pegasi/sphynxes/harpies/minataurs/naga are 'easy' merge-products.

(Yes, you could hard-code them, but that's moving away from some of the philosophy of Procedurality being developed.)
¹ Or not. Tigons inherit size-limiting factors, from the female lion, while ligers develop as larger than either ancestry would suggest.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 04:31:59 am »

Toady has commented on it, and he wants to do it eventually. However, it's a hard technical problem if tackled at a satisfactory depth, i.e. a system capable of producing e.g. centaurs and pegasii.

From a philosophical point of view, there are two rather distinct cross breed processes:
1. The natural one, i.e. creatures of two sufficiently closely related species generating viable offspring (with the old fashioned definition of race/species boundary being whether the offspring being fertile, while the current politically correct one is that everything that might eventually become separate species are declared to be ones immediately, sometimes with a rather generous take one "might", resulting in a bazillion sub species being declared distinct). This inherently limits the parents to very similar body plans (but still with a need for a process to generate the results). This process probably would need raw cues, i.e. in the form of tags that link a species to a "base" one, indicating whether it's a race or derived species, and possibly an indication of whether a particular or all "sibling" species/races are degraded one step on the rung (to e.g. allow human-goblin, human-dwarf, human-elf cross breeds, but not goblin-elf (if a prohibition tag), or any combination of derived species (if all). Then you'd also have to determine where cross breeds inherit their compatibility from (mother, father, limits dominating, permissions dominating).
[Also note that the above is a simplification, ignoring the fact that there aren't "base" species in reality, but rather common ancestors: chimps have evolved for as long as humans have from their last common ancestor, for instance].

2. The magic one, where aspects of creatures are merged, or grafted onto a base species. I would argue that neither centaurs nor cerberii could result from any natural process, and probably wouldn't be created by breeding in any conventional sense. If we look at real world mythology, it's a common theme with humans having heads of various animals, for instance. I have a hard time seeing this work without recipe guidelines, but have no idea of how to approach the issue.

3. Creating a new species from an old one, a magic approach not involving breeding. There's a Threetoe story about the creation of the Foul Blendec using this path.
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Detoxicated

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 12:10:20 pm »

For your second point I see syndromes that change the creature to gain thought and a head of one of the races. You could have specific syndromes or syndromes of many different heads. Same could apply to any body part.
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Azerty

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 05:00:26 pm »

We already have animalmen; we could expand to other sentients.

We could also have crossing between animals producing things such as mules and wolfdogs.
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KittyTac

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 09:59:15 pm »

We already have animalmen; we could expand to other sentients.

We could also have crossing between animals producing things such as mules and wolfdogs.
Animalmen aren't born from humans... making love with animals. They're separate creatures created at worldgen.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 10:06:20 pm »

We already have animalmen; we could expand to other sentients.

We could also have crossing between animals producing things such as mules and wolfdogs.
Animalmen aren't born from humans... making love with animals. They're separate creatures created at worldgen.
Well, now that depends on the myth, doesn't it? Toady could have the generator come up with more icky origin stories. Perhaps add a slider for those who really don't want that kind of detail. It's not without precedent, we all know where minotaurs come from, right?
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 02:37:28 pm »

We already have animalmen; we could expand to other sentients.

We could also have crossing between animals producing things such as mules and wolfdogs.
Animalmen aren't born from humans... making love with animals. They're separate creatures created at worldgen.
Are you talking about "Zoophilia"?  :o
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2018, 03:47:54 pm »

Minotaurs are part of the Greek mythology, which also has at least one version of a story of how they came to be (Zeus was involved, as is frequently the case).
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2018, 06:17:25 am »

I think the main problem with the idea was simply it's mechanical difficulty in implementing. 

I think that restricting reproduction to between creatures with a particular common token would solve much of the mechanical problems, that was we can ensure the game does not try to combine creatures that mechanically cannot be combined.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2018, 08:10:59 am »

Eag-pus, a halfbreed of eagle and octopus...
How that would work I couldn't even start to speculate about .. but would be a possibility in-game if the halfbreed algorithm isn't carefully calibrated.
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KittyTac

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2018, 08:22:16 am »

Eag-pus, a halfbreed of eagle and octopus...
How that would work I couldn't even start to speculate about .. but would be a possibility in-game if the halfbreed algorithm isn't carefully calibrated.
A feathered octopus with wings and an eagle beak. Could be a thing in high-weirdness worlds (We'll be getting sliders for all things magic, remember?)

BTW, I could mod in an eag-pus if you'd like.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Half-Breeds
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2018, 08:25:15 am »

Eag-pus, a halfbreed of eagle and octopus...
How that would work I couldn't even start to speculate about .. but would be a possibility in-game if the halfbreed algorithm isn't carefully calibrated.
A feathered octopus with wings and an eagle beak. Could be a thing in high-weirdness worlds (We'll be getting sliders for all things magic, remember?)

BTW, I could mod in an eag-pus if you'd like.

Only if you can believably explain how that mating happened... XD
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