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Total Members Voted: 14

[NUKE9.13]

So, not that you two arguing over semantics isn't fascinating, but it's not even remotely relevant to the game.
Parsely, you can't convince Spin to drop his position.
Spin, there is nothing to be gained by arguing this point.

[Maximum Spin]

Spin, there is nothing to be gained by arguing this point.

Ah, that's where you're wrong. Arguing is an end in itself.

[Taricus]

Take it out the damn thread at least.

[Twinwolf]

Agree with that.

To veer back to topic, I figure that it's worth mentioning a few things that I think we should design at some point, going off discussion here and in the discord.

Power armor (or, "Armored Lifting Suit"): With the lifting suit as a base, we already had the basis of power armor. With Caelium Steel, we've basically got everything we need for a very effective suit of power armor. This would actually be especially useful in city combat, as it gives pointmen greatly improved odds of surviving their tasks, and is basically like a vehicle that can go inside buildings. There was discussion of either including or designing seperately a giant Caelium Steel sword for their use. Because power armored soldiers with greatswords is awesome and the place we expect to fight the most is likely the most useful place for them.

Shotgun: While we have adjusted our SMG to be actually... well, usable, shotguns are still a thing for a reason. Would probably be especially helpful in city combat, again.

Actually Effective Vehicle: The Armored Sled is pretty much a vehicle already - or at least more effective in the role than the Kerata. That said, as great as it is, it's still the product of a lucky roll on something that wasn't intended for the role. It might be prudent, at a later point, to perhaps make a real vehicle - maybe even using the Armored Sled as a base over the Kerata.

Sniper: I think that this can be done as a revision, actually. Slap a scope on the Senapang and we have a sniper, since it's original design said range was more limited by the human eye than it's quality. Maybe make a note about how, like some snipers of the time, the guns of a new batch are fired and the most accurate are given scopes. Alternatively I could see just an outright sniper variant with gavrillium powder since that apparently gave our machine guns great range.

Anything else come to mind?

[Taricus]

Honestly I don't think we'd even need to give swords to the power armour to make them awesome in melee (Just let them copy doom eternal and they'll be awesome without a bigass sword).

But I'd definitely agree to a shotgun. Hell, there's a production-level semi-auto shotgun we can use as a base for it, and slugs would be helpful along with buckshot. Give that a decently-sized magazine and the Abberans are gonna hate it.

[Twinwolf]

Power armored guys dual wielding shotguns rushing enemy buildings would be awesome.

[Taricus]

Exactly my thought! An if they run out of ammunition, it's rip & tear time!

[Yami]

I think powered armour is a waste of a good lifting suit, and a sword would be a waste of a good design.  We already have Smgs for killing folk in close quarters, but they've even longer reach than a sword.  Sword adds nothing do the equation.

Here, if your insistant on adding some armour and melee let's do it right.  Make it a part of something greater.

Combat Engineering Kit
The combat engineering kit is, essentially a way to make our Mountain Men a viable force multiplier on the front lines and take full advantage of it's capabilities.  Consisting of a giant tower shield, or more correctly, pavise of steel, design to be braced against a shoulder and held with one hand allowing the Lifting Suit to march undaunted in combat, completely protected from the front.  I'm thinking a slight bend to the shield to influence deflection up or to the sides rather than penetration, with downward slope that deflects up we'd need additional metal stands down the side, that we might link multipule pavises side by side or at 90 degrees to create an instant barrier that could be left for our standard infantry.

By not trying to cover every bit of our suits and not caring about the mobility of our armour, since it's not designed to move, we can make a thicker an better shield against bullets able to stand up to our own machine guns, without any need for weaker moving parts.  Sure it's only pointed forwards, but then that just means all the armour is at the front rather'n be spread out.

Now, note how I said, Combat Engineering 'Kit'?  The whole point of this would be to allow our men to advance and entrench in a combat situation, to this end I suggest we enhance our classic entrenching tool to stand up to the rigours of use our new lifting suits can supply.  Too many have broken due to the increase demands a greater strength requires.  To this end I believe an enlarged entrenching tool built of this new lighter than steel alloy would serve admirably, perhaps with sharpened sides, that they might be used like battle axes in one hand or two, should the occasion require it.

Now, even improving upon the classic shovel is not quite fast enough, so I suggest we supply our Combat Engineers with a dozen explosive charges attached to stakes, that they might be hammered down and blast open the ground in order to rapidly entrench.  Add in the detonator, then of course to round it out I'd suggest a supply of empty burlap sacks, for the filling with soil and fortifying the new entrenchments.

So, to summerize, I suggest a giant barricade of metal able to be moved only due to the strength of our suits but also able to stand freely, A lighter than steel entrenching tool that can double as a battleaxe, a dozen explosives meant to be hammered into the ground to blow starting entrenchments, a detonator for said explosives, and a dozen large sacks or so to turn into big sandbags.

~Yami, Mad Genius Scientist.

[Twinwolf]

Swords add coolness but, as mentioned, I am not super attached to that. That said, we have already gone over why powered armor is a good idea in our specific circumstance and you've not refuted any points. I do like the combat engineering kit, but I don't think it replaces power armor at all. I think ideally we'd get both actually.

So, for future reference because I'm bored and feel like writing something, I'll do a thing

Avalanche Armored Lifting Suit

The Mountain Myomer Lifting Suit was a triumph of engineering and proved what can be done if we combine the unique resources of our island. However, it is not fit for combat deployment due to it's exposed power supply and other factors. This must be remedied, as the potential applications are vast.

The basis of the Avalanche is, obviously, the Mountain. No need to reinvent the wheel. It is from this point that we begin to change things. The "Armored" part of "Armored Lifting Suit" comes in the form of Caelium Steel armor. This resembles medieval plate, and covers most of the body, thick enough to provide resistance to bullets or even outright deflect them if they hit at the wrong angle. The plating is thicker around the vulnerable parts besides the joints, so as to ensure that it won't be easily penetrated. The suit can either be worn with a full helm for maximum protection at the cost of vision, or a coif for lesser protection but unobstructed vision.

Avalanche-armored men will make for strong pointmen when we enter Harren, able to clear buildings and assault enemy entrenchments fearlessly compared to unarmored men and capable of carrying even heavy weaponry on their own to support their squads, as the need arises. They will be able to go places that our armored sleds cannot go or that we cannot bring heavy weaponry to with speed, providing a strong advantage in close combat. When we beat Abbera past Harren, they will serve to provide mobile covering fire for assaults or lead the charge in trench clearing as we take the fight to them. Should we be put on the defensive they can still provide strong support.

And a suggestion for a later revision.

Senapang Pattern Rifle (Var.S): A sniper variant of the Senapang. When a new batch of Senapangs are produced, they are each tested for their accuracy at various ranges. Those that have the greatest marks are fitted with a long-range scope, and become Senapang Variant: Sniper rifles, and are given to the best marksmen in each squad in place of their standard service rifle. These snipers pick off enemies as they poke their heads out of their trenches, or aim for high value targets when they foolishly enter their sightlines.

[Yami]

I'm specifically trying to refute the Cost for the protection associated with it, as well as making something with more armour where we need it.  Here, let's look at our new alloy.

Caelium Steel: A Caelium-Steel alloy weighs half as much as similar volumes of steel without losing durability. Designs utilizing Caelium Steel adds 1/2 the cost of Ore in Caelium for any cost associated with the replaced steel.

Higher cost, and so far we've just the one resource, which would no doubt make the Avalanche expensive.  So, I propose a cheaper start, a high ore cost that we can cover using simple steel and minimal special alloy usage whilst we search out new veins of that special ore.  As well as being a design that wouldn't be obsoleted when you guys finally get around to outvoting me and doing powered armour.

~Yami, Mad Genius scientist.

[Twinwolf]

The thing is, I don't actually mind it being Expensive when we first get it. For one, we will be getting more resources before we get to combat and don't stop being able to assign nodes when we do get into that. Secondly, I doubt it'll be Very Expensive barring a bad roll - the Armored Sled uses only 3 Ore and 2 Caelium, and I can't imagine it takes more ore to armor a man, although admittedly that is on the best possible roll. If it's Expensive, I could still see it being used by a man or two per squad, which I think is fine for it's purpose of playing pointman and/or squad support. If we roll really well and it's cheap somehow, well, icing on the cake and a bad day for Abbera.

I can somewhat understand going for the Combat Engineer Kit first, and I do understand the concern of cost. I actually wouldn't be upset if that got voted for over the Avalanche first, but I am still wondering why you're so vehemently opposed to power armor.

[Yami]

Mostly as a logistics and expense concern.  We're great long ranges, which pretty aptly leaves us with just one direction to protect from, which means we're wasting all this extra resources covering the suit from all angles.

Then in close quarter's I'm hoping to get vertical engagement going with the 'Parkour suits' as they'd been dubbed, or get our soldiers gear to just go through walls and tear down buildings so that we can, again engage with a combined front so we don't hafta worry about flanking shots as much, since we'd be able to advance en mass and not get broken up by mere buildings.

Also.  We have grenades.  It's not just bullets we hafta stop.  I'm afraid we'll develop this great suit of armour and it'll just be a grenade magnet and get blown up.

Basically, I believe maneuverability and firepower will trump armour at the front.  It tends to.

~Yami, Mad Genius Scientist.

[Twinwolf]

Yes, we're great at long ranges. The problem is, we can't always expect to engage at long range. One of the worst traps you can fall into is underestimating your enemy - if we assume that they can't get close or flank us, and don't prepare for it, it's gonna bite us. Secondly, we are actively expecting close quarter combat, since we have to get through Harren - a city. We can have all the long range firepower we want, but if it doesn't get us through that city it's not going to do us any good.

The point of explosions is actually a fair one. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a grenade. But if we build the armor right they can hopefully resist a grenade or two - actually all the more reason to have armor on all sides, since we can't expect them to oblige and throw them in front of us. ...We should revise a roof for the Armored Sled, or they're gonna throw a grenade in the top.

Manueverability and firepower is a valid doctrine. However, if it was perfect for all situation, we wouldn't need tanks would we? Armor has it's place, and allowing that role to go under-filled seems begging for that to be exploited. Mind I'm also not opposed to the parkour suits - if we can get those too down the line, that'd be great. The problem is, those are mostly good for the city, whereas more general power armor has broader use.

Tldr, combined arms is what I think would work better. I think the ideal is having some response to anything they can throw at us, since battlefields are by nature chaotic and varied in nature, and we can't assume the same thing is going to work for every one. In some cases, armor is going to work better. In some, the battle will be dominated by mobility. In others it'll be whoever can shoot the furthest. If we focus on one or two specialized advantages, we're going to be hurt when they come at us in a way that targets a weakness.

[Yami]

That is a fair point.  Though to be perfectly honest, I was hoping we could make a gravite harness/blimp hybrid and just float our soldiers over the river and just avoid the whole Harren debacle until we can siege it from both sides and then just pound it to rubble.

But considering how we've been developing, I don't think we'll manage that in time.  Might as well buckle down and prepare for it.

We'll probably want to start on the powered armour and the engineering kit once we take rolling hills so we've time to revise away issues and to allow for a poor roll or two.  I also think we should revise away our armoured car problems before going sniper rifle.  Don't get me wrong, I like a good sniper as much as the next guy, but that thing really needs some work.

As for going shotgun, I think our smgs pretty well cover that niche.  It feels like it'd be too close to something we've already got to be worth the design.  Way I see it, designs for powered armour and engineering kit and revisions to make a sniper rifle and fixing the Car all trump getting a second close quarters weapon.  And that's not even adding into any bright new ideas anyone else gets.

And I still want to find a way to accidentally burn down the town or develope some sort of depleted gavrilium weapon.  I've just gotta find a thing that fills a niche we haven't yet to get folk to vote on it whilst allowing for those for things I mentioned above.

Hmm, this could be tough.

~Yami, Mad Genius Scientist.

[Twinwolf]

I'm not really super attached to shotguns either, but I like them. I'll still propose it but not really be upset if other things get voted in.

I'm sort of pushing the powered armor because I think it'll be at it's most effective in the city, and I really don't think it'll be that easy to circumvent it. Considering how combat goes in most Arms Races, I don't think the battle for Harren is going to be quick. That said, I think we're going to be waiting to see what requests we get before we start deciding what to design next turn - I really hope for that power armor to be viable. If we can get a research credit design on it that'd be amazing.

As for the car, I'm honestly all for writing off the Kerata and instead using the Armored Sled as a base for future vehicles. Either that or just starting from the ground up.

(Unrelated, thank you for letting this be a civil debate rather than burning the thread in salt.)