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[GoblinCookie]

Food webs and energy pyramids are basic middle school science. Literally all life requires an energy source to continue to function. This is because life is essentially an energy transfer system where by kinetic (light, motion, sound, heat, etc) and potential energy (chemical) are transfered back and forth. This system requires a constant input of new outside energy. On Earth there are only really two sources of energy, solar and geothermal, ALL life requires access in some way to one of these two. For the majority of lifeforms on our planet solar is the input. Even in caves, the ecosystem is fueled by an animal that ventures to the surface, or by bacteria and detritus that filters down or into a cave. There are NO animals in existance that live underground, find all their food underground, and are the size of a dwarf. Even if there were, they would not have a large population and would be extremely unlikely to develop the set of adaptations that we associate with dwarves.

We don't actually know what creatures there are underground in RL.  There might well be dwarf sized creatures down there, or maybe if we had larger caverns than we have in RL there might be.

[Fleeting Frames]

Well, the ones we've looked at had small sightless, translucent bugs at the largest. Increasing body size, which boosts costs exponentially, thousands of times beyond that, and making it a magnitudes more expensive mammal on top of it? Even if energy density could support it without falling victim to the elephant grazer problem (I'm nowhere near biology), scaling up the size by equivalent amounts would require country-sized caves.

We'd notice those very easily even without nuclear seismology of the 70s.

Of course, caves in dwarf fortress are on that scale in large worlds, and floors (and in particular, cavern lakes) directly above the somewhat-magical magma maintain temperature greater than the hottest hour of the past summer's heatwave here.

Not that the ecosystems currently pay any respect to that; it's all relatively uniform.

[Devast]

I personally like the idea that dwarves have developed a tracheal filter that diverts dust into their stomachs for use in grinding food down. Similarly, they have flaps of skin which cover the ears in high-noise environments. Sometimes these get stuck closed, which is why they can't HEAR MY GODDAMN ORDERS.

Point is, I still rate oxygen as a significant contributor to dwarf deaths.

Beards answer all of that.

[GoblinCookie]

Well, the ones we've looked at had small sightless, translucent bugs at the largest. Increasing body size, which boosts costs exponentially, thousands of times beyond that, and making it a magnitudes more expensive mammal on top of it? Even if energy density could support it without falling victim to the elephant grazer problem (I'm nowhere near biology), scaling up the size by equivalent amounts would require country-sized caves.

We'd notice those very easily even without nuclear seismology of the 70s.

Of course, caves in dwarf fortress are on that scale in large worlds, and floors (and in particular, cavern lakes) directly above the somewhat-magical magma maintain temperature greater than the hottest hour of the past summer's heatwave here.

Not that the ecosystems currently pay any respect to that; it's all relatively uniform.

There are cat-fish in caves, cat-fish can get pretty big although not to human size. 

The thing is that we do have very large caves in DF and this is quite common in fantasy in general.  But yes, generally the underground should be a harsher and less life-rich place than the surface is.  Distribution of life should also be very uneven, some caves should be teeming with life, while others are barren lifeless places.

[Fleeting Frames]

Well, I was speaking of completely sealed off caves with insects. Obviously, cat-fish aren't undiscovered and completely sealed off. Disregarding that....

Deeper localization would be interesting; for local scale I'm thinking things like [HOT] tag on plants similar to [WET] one could be interesting, as well as making cavern grazers actually seek out those patches (and then predators seek out grazers).

Albeit as things stand it'd play out as fungi on the 3rd cavern floor above magma, maybe near magma pools and nowhere else. Maybe if plants could use proximity with other plants, like symbotic fungi irl do with some trees. This could potentially mean some obscure species which only occur near the boundary between two biomes.

[GoblinCookie]

Well, I was speaking of completely sealed off caves with insects. Obviously, cat-fish aren't undiscovered and completely sealed off. Disregarding that....

Deeper localization would be interesting; for local scale I'm thinking things like [HOT] tag on plants similar to [WET] one could be interesting, as well as making cavern grazers actually seek out those patches (and then predators seek out grazers).

Albeit as things stand it'd play out as fungi on the 3rd cavern floor above magma, maybe near magma pools and nowhere else. Maybe if plants could use proximity with other plants, like symbotic fungi irl do with some trees. This could potentially mean some obscure species which only occur near the boundary between two biomes.

I think that the first level caverns could be fed by the surface, the third level caverns would be fed by geothermal stuff and the second level would be fed by the other two caverns.  This means in a non-magical world these would be barren but in a magical world the magical energy sources would be placed in the second level of the caverns, so the second cave level would be more lush in such worlds.

[Miuramir]

Food webs and energy pyramids are basic middle school science. Literally all life requires an energy source to continue to function. This is because life is essentially an energy transfer system where by kinetic (light, motion, sound, heat, etc) and potential energy (chemical) are transfered back and forth. This system requires a constant input of new outside energy.

Or a store of old energy that has not yet been depleted.  On Earth, crustal chemosynthetic bacteria and archaea that live in basalt have some pretty exotic metabolic pathways, and in some cases have access to stores of energy that are substantial enough to possibly stretch past the lifetime of the surface biosphere.  (It is not clear if the reactions involved can be sustained for long once the Earth is no longer capable of supporting surface water, and plate tectonics, however.)  In other real locations (e.g. Io for a dramatic case), tides and related orbital processes can produce heating over long enough periods to be relevant for life. 

This doesn't even begin to get into fantasy world issues.  If souls are a renewable resource, then the torturing of souls may also be a renewable energy resource, for an example that might even be relevant to stock DF.  Remnant energy from the creation of the world(s) may manifest in many ways. 

If the god(s) have access to other realms, the concept of the "world" as being a closed system may be seriously inadequate.  To somewhat mangle a classic D&D take on things, if powerful entities can tap into the potential difference between the positive energy plane, the prime material plane, and the negative energy plane, reserves of energy that dwarf that of fusion may be available.  To use an unnecessarily dwarven take on things, what about a small Stirling engine, with a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire as the heat source, and a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Ice as the heat sink; said engine turns a prayer wheel, which provides psychic energy that allows a god to perform "miracles", which may include acts that seemingly reverse local entropy gradients, create or destroy matter or energy, and in extreme cases violate causality. 

Consider, for a moment, a legend from our world; the amount of energy necessary to manifest "ex nihilo", from nothing, enough bread and fish to feed 5,000 men plus an unknown number of women and children.  To heavily over-simplify a minimum number, let's figure on 1/3 of daily minimum calorie requirements ("one meal") for the stated men alone; that's 1,800 kcal (UN standard) / 3 * 5,000 = 3,000,000 kcal ~ 1.2 x 10^10 joules.  This is pretty close to the energy released by the explosion of 3 tons of TNT, and we've been consistently using the smaller numbers in our Fermi estimation; the number could be easily be several times that within the context of the legend, and the energy needed to actually create the mass of the food by direct application of m = E/c^2 would be dramatically higher yet (1).  Still, even with the utter minimum number, it'd represent a heck of a fireball if that energy was being used by someone more warlike

It is even possible that what is perceived as the "world" is merely a simulation, with somewhat arbitrary and possibly whimsical parameters set without regard to conventional physical law, by incomprehensible entities operating several tropic and conceptual levels above reality as can ordinarily be perceived...

ETA:
(1) Assuming again we need 1,800 / 3 = 600 kcal; barley bread is 282 kcal / 100 g; tilapia (Galilaea tilapia is one likely fish given the setting) without skin, bones, and pin bones is 128 kcal / 100 g; usable ratio of edible fish to starting fish mass is between 30% and 37% (call it 1/3) and we want a 5/2 ratio.  So that's 428 kcal of bread = 152 g, plus 171 kcal of edible fish = 134 g of edible fish * 3 = 402 g of total fish.  So, roughly 550 g of food * 5,000 men = 2,750 kg of food * 9.0 * 10^16 joules/kg ~ 2.5 * 10^20 joules.  For comparison, this is well over 1,000 times the energy of the largest nuclear bomb ever detonated; over 300 times the energy released by the eruption of Krakatoa; about 5 times the energy released in an entire day by a hurricane (note that only 1/400 or so of that is the obvious wind, most of the energy is used in producing rain); or about 24 minutes worth of the total solar energy striking the entire earth.  Swords into plowshares is harder than it looks

[GoblinCookie]

If the god(s) have access to other realms, the concept of the "world" as being a closed system may be seriously inadequate.  To somewhat mangle a classic D&D take on things, if powerful entities can tap into the potential difference between the positive energy plane, the prime material plane, and the negative energy plane, reserves of energy that dwarf that of fusion may be available.  To use an unnecessarily dwarven take on things, what about a small Stirling engine, with a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire as the heat source, and a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Ice as the heat sink; said engine turns a prayer wheel, which provides psychic energy that allows a god to perform "miracles", which may include acts that seemingly reverse local entropy gradients, create or destroy matter or energy, and in extreme cases violate causality. 

The question then is "why doesn't everything use portals to the elemental plane of fire?". 

[Halnoth]

Food webs and energy pyramids are basic middle school science. Literally all life requires an energy source to continue to function. This is because life is essentially an energy transfer system where by kinetic (light, motion, sound, heat, etc) and potential energy (chemical) are transfered back and forth. This system requires a constant input of new outside energy.

Or a store of old energy that has not yet been depleted.  On Earth, crustal chemosynthetic bacteria and archaea that live in basalt have some pretty exotic metabolic pathways, and in some cases have access to stores of energy that are substantial enough to possibly stretch past the lifetime of the surface biosphere.  (It is not clear if the reactions involved can be sustained for long once the Earth is no longer capable of supporting surface water, and plate tectonics, however.)  In other real locations (e.g. Io for a dramatic case), tides and related orbital processes can produce heating over long enough periods to be relevant for life.

The "old energy" as you say is still an input of outside energy. In the most basic sense the system boundary is the cell membrane.

Regardless, you are talking about bacteria. Nothing the size of a dwarf could subsist on such a limited amount of biomass.

As to tidal heating (ala Europa), it remains to be seen if that particular hypothesis pans out. There is as yet no evidence to support the claim that complex (multicellular life, like a dwarf) could exist in such an environment.

Personally, I think that there is a high likelihood single celled organisms exist on solar objects such as Europa. Not sure about anything much more complex.

[Egan_BW]

If the god(s) have access to other realms, the concept of the "world" as being a closed system may be seriously inadequate.  To somewhat mangle a classic D&D take on things, if powerful entities can tap into the potential difference between the positive energy plane, the prime material plane, and the negative energy plane, reserves of energy that dwarf that of fusion may be available.  To use an unnecessarily dwarven take on things, what about a small Stirling engine, with a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire as the heat source, and a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Ice as the heat sink; said engine turns a prayer wheel, which provides psychic energy that allows a god to perform "miracles", which may include acts that seemingly reverse local entropy gradients, create or destroy matter or energy, and in extreme cases violate causality. 

The question then is "why doesn't everything use portals to the elemental plane of fire?".

Why don't all animals have bones reinforced by titanium?

[KittyTac]

If the god(s) have access to other realms, the concept of the "world" as being a closed system may be seriously inadequate.  To somewhat mangle a classic D&D take on things, if powerful entities can tap into the potential difference between the positive energy plane, the prime material plane, and the negative energy plane, reserves of energy that dwarf that of fusion may be available.  To use an unnecessarily dwarven take on things, what about a small Stirling engine, with a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire as the heat source, and a tiny portal to the Elemental Plane of Ice as the heat sink; said engine turns a prayer wheel, which provides psychic energy that allows a god to perform "miracles", which may include acts that seemingly reverse local entropy gradients, create or destroy matter or energy, and in extreme cases violate causality. 

The question then is "why doesn't everything use portals to the elemental plane of fire?".

Why don't all animals have bones reinforced by titanium?

Because titanium is hard to find in nature. Portals to the Plane of Fire could be hard to produce.

[FantasticDorf]

The question then is "why doesn't everything use portals to the elemental plane of fire?".

Imps & firemen that have no place in the non-supernatural world as it is and seem to be extraneously non-relevant to the ecology, having your own personal fire dimension sounds like a great form of AC in the cold underground depths (least before you hit magma)

[GoblinCookie]

Because titanium is hard to find in nature. Portals to the Plane of Fire could be hard to produce.

That rules out us having a cave-ecosystem based upon portals to the Plane of Fire.

Food webs and energy pyramids are basic middle school science. Literally all life requires an energy source to continue to function. This is because life is essentially an energy transfer system where by kinetic (light, motion, sound, heat, etc) and potential energy (chemical) are transfered back and forth. This system requires a constant input of new outside energy.

Or a store of old energy that has not yet been depleted.  On Earth, crustal chemosynthetic bacteria and archaea that live in basalt have some pretty exotic metabolic pathways, and in some cases have access to stores of energy that are substantial enough to possibly stretch past the lifetime of the surface biosphere.  (It is not clear if the reactions involved can be sustained for long once the Earth is no longer capable of supporting surface water, and plate tectonics, however.)  In other real locations (e.g. Io for a dramatic case), tides and related orbital processes can produce heating over long enough periods to be relevant for life.

The "old energy" as you say is still an input of outside energy. In the most basic sense the system boundary is the cell membrane.

Regardless, you are talking about bacteria. Nothing the size of a dwarf could subsist on such a limited amount of biomass.

As to tidal heating (ala Europa), it remains to be seen if that particular hypothesis pans out. There is as yet no evidence to support the claim that complex (multicellular life, like a dwarf) could exist in such an environment.

Personally, I think that there is a high likelihood single celled organisms exist on solar objects such as Europa. Not sure about anything much more complex.

What is the functional difference between having a million single-celled organism and a single multi-cellular organism.  Isn't the latter actually *more* efficient than the former?

The question then is "why doesn't everything use portals to the elemental plane of fire?".

Imps & firemen that have no place in the non-supernatural world as it is and seem to be extraneously non-relevant to the ecology, having your own personal fire dimension sounds like a great form of AC in the cold underground depths (least before you hit magma)

Cold underground depths is in itself a fantastic element.  The underground is hot and the deeper you go the hotter it gets.

[Fleeting Frames]

Very broadly speaking, bigger isn't more efficient, bigger can smash smaller things (whether by eating them or eating their food). Provided they have the energy to smash; bigger requires greater energy density.

Hm, now following Miuramir's idea with our cave system with its portals to the Plane of Fire, might there be the geater variety of underground life under volcanic glaciers? Greatest differential, after all.

[Halnoth]

What is the functional difference between having a million single-celled organism and a single multi-cellular organism.  Isn't the latter actually *more* efficient than the former?

A million single celled organisms all compete with each other for resources and do not act in a cohesive manner.

As to your second question; it entirely depends on how you want to measure efficiency. In terms of energy efficiency then sure multicellular organisms are more efficient. However, there are definate draw backs to being multicellular, the biggest being reproduction. It is easier to split yourself in half to produce two than it is to grow a new organism. So, in terms of reproductive efficiency, single celled organisms are more efficient. This is partially why populations of single celled organisms can operate in more extreme environments.

However, in terms of survival, neither of the above parameters for measuring efficiency is appropriate on thier own. Many other factors need to be considered. For instance, total energy available for input into the ecosystem and total energy available at each trophic level would need to be examined to determine the likelihood of X populatIon existing.