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Author Topic: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)  (Read 12766 times)

helmacon

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2018, 09:14:52 pm »

If we could get a third drone in the mining bay I could support it. 500 total income to 900 total income is really not worth it even for specialization imo. 750 : 900 would be a ratio I would consider acceptable. I still think that if we stick with it at all we ought to throw at least 2 revisions at it. 1 for the extra drone and 1 more to make it a little better.
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frostgiant

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2018, 09:18:36 pm »

*whistle* The mjolnir is devastating. A bit pricey but I think that kind of versatility and power is worth it. Next design phase, I would deifnitly support putting dice in it.

the AWIMP is nice, because of the fact that its 2 drone per hangar per skeleton space. that is efficient. it is good at specialised mining and we can tailor it to what resources we need per turn. We should keep the mining bay aroud just to ensure we have a small amount off income in everything but the AWIMP is good we can patch a lot of problems up.

The +2 lifesupport is a bad choice, no good in the long run.
If the +1 Dice is forever we need to grab that, once the superturns are over we will only have 5 dice (i think) meaning only 1 design a turn, the ability to choose to do 2 will be amazing.
if it's not every turn then the skeleton space is the go-to choice. Getting extra skelton space is pricey.

4 revision Dice, That's a good amount to work with

Better fire control for the Mjolnir?
More drones in one bay for the AWIMP?
Faster firing speed on the Saker? (Because to many Mjolner will get Pricey fast, both in noble gas and in non-metal(700 of the damn things)
See about fixing the stability problem for the stellarator?
Better target tracking for the Kestral?
See if we can patch the lifesupport as a temporary measure?
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helmacon

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2018, 09:37:09 pm »

Why is extra life support a bad choice?

Especially if it's as big a commodity as it would seem to be.
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frostgiant

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2018, 09:43:21 pm »

Why is extra life support a bad choice?

Especially if it's as big a commodity as it would seem to be.

The +2 skeleton space means we could build an ELS in there and have 3 more life support then if we chose that option and still have 1 skeletal space left over. and that is with the crappy starter one that's description is basically telling us how slap-dash and crappy it is.

it would cost resources, but it would give us bigger benefits. in the long run as well.
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helmacon

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2018, 09:45:10 pm »

it's only a +1 skeletal space. And there would be an advantage to having life support that is not tied to a module that could be destroyed/shut down.
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Jilladilla

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2018, 09:49:11 pm »

Why is extra life support a bad choice?

Especially if it's as big a commodity as it would seem to be.

If we pick Skeleton Space, we can slap our basic Emergency Life Support in that slot for +5 Life Support. The materials gained from the scrap option mostly pays for it too. Now yes, this does also cost 3 power, but our newer reactor can handle that easy.

Also, the +2 Life Support option grows less and less useful as we improve our Life Support systems. That Skeleton Space can be reused to house the newest and best modules in the future.

And while you do raise a point for having Life Support not tied down to a module.... It's only +2 LS, if a Life Support system gets knocked out, getting it back up is going to be a major priority. That LS isn't really enough to stem the pain from that.
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crazyabe

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2018, 11:27:25 pm »

If we need more life support, we can develop a farming deck- Kill two birds with a rather large stone, and then go on to refloor the ark with some nice wood flooring.
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helmacon

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #157 on: July 19, 2018, 07:07:44 am »

But this would save power and resources as well. Taking the skeleton source and just shoving a full cost life support in seems to defeat the purpose to me.
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Thanik

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #158 on: July 19, 2018, 09:08:18 am »

But this would save power and resources as well. Taking the skeleton source and just shoving a full cost life support in seems to defeat the purpose to me.

Our main priority should be to limit life support usage as much as possible. We want to have multiple systems online without massive life support budgets and devote skeletal space otherwise to more crucial things, like mining and power, while making due with a single, preferably well protected and redundant life support system for all of them that require it and are crucial, like the reactor we currently have.

Namely, what we should do is develop an affordable modular life support system, in my opinion, where-in we can buy 'add-on' units with a fixed amount available per module (say, 3, 5 or 7) for a lower total price per purchase than a full module that could just outright fail or have a steep repair cost. While possibly similar in output to the auxiliary module used currently per add-on, we'd be left with what is in essence something we can tailor to our needs.

Make note, the WIMP has a falsely flagged life support drain, which Chief has acknowledged, and we can count on it not needing it for operation. Just thought I'd add that.

Now onto the various things. Currently, we are nearing the end of Jump 1, with the revision phase and the production phase to go. The event has three possible outcomes.

  • Crew Quarters (+2 Life Support)
: Permanent, independent life support addition that would remain functional with a damaged core module - enough to power the reactor and mining bay, keeping in function crucial systems for our automated defensive and offensive weapons, as well as our wimps.
  • Scrap (+100 Metal, +150 Non-Metal, +1 Skeletal Space)
: Given we are at our Non-metal cap, I wonder if Chief would let us carry the 150 Non-metals over-capacity for a bit, since that would sweeten the deal. This effectively also saves us 250 Non-metals and Metals in the long run via giving us additional skeleton space for free, though I'd be triggered by the uneven number of spaces we'd have. :P
  • R&D (+1 Dice)
: If permanent, our best option, but I doubt Chief would make it so (then again, it really depends on his stance on the matter) - despite the other two options also being permanent. This would most likely be a temporary boost for next turn or for whenever we needed it, which, if proved, would make it akin to the Life Support option in my opinion - handy if utilized in exactly one way, but even less so than the Life Support.

Currently we have, and I quote:
500 Advanced Plastics
500 Noble Gases
500 Uranics
1,000 Hydrogen
1,000 Metals
1,500 Non-Metals

For our first turn, we have several options:

1. The Jack-of-all Trades Approach - We could opt to possess an offensive weapon, an additional mining bay and a reactor. (We'll probably want to make armor next turn and invest dice in crucial projects to get their cost down, if at all possible, but yeah). This would, assuming we chose the P-01, a fully stocked AWIMP and the Mjolnir, assuming all of them are finished by then, run at a cost of:

60 Advanced Plastics, 140 Uranics, 1300 Metal, 1700 Non-Metal and 100 Noble Gases

With a half stocked WIMP module functioning alongside the standard mining bay, we'd be looking at a cost of:

60 Advanced Plastics, 120 Uranics, 1200 Metal, 1500 Non-Metal and 100 Noble Gases

Which is almost within our budget, assuming we don't purchase any armor and all of them are finished by that point. This would increase our offensive capabilities considerably, allowing us to impart heavy damage upon the enemy Ark right off the bat, allow us to get the resources needed to purchase another wimp on Jump 4, increase our free power by +24 and decrease our LS budget by -2, down to 1. This seems like the Jack-of-all-Trades option in all honesty, and would most likely result in us not faring quite well or not managing to meet it's goals by Jump 3.

2. The Striker Approach - We could invest in a reactor, a Mjolnir, and future armoring (Assumed to be relatively cheap), while sacrificing our resource acquisition capabilities somewhat on Jump 3, it would impart heavy damage on the enemy and require them to invest significant resources in repairs, making us in the lead in that respect, and letting us invest more into resource acquisition for Jump 4. The cost for this plan would thus be variable given the cost of armor, but we can estimate what kinds of funds will be left over for that once it's developed.

All in all, we're looking at a minimum cost of 60 Advanced Plastics, 100 Uranics, 1000 Metal, 1100 Non-Metal and 100 Noble Gases, leaving us with:

440 Advanced Plastics
400 Noble Gases
400 Uranics
1,000 Hydrogen
0 Metals
400 Non-Metals

Assuming we don't pick the "Scrap" option for this event, in which case we can afford an additional 'Saker' and be down 100 more NGs. In either case, we would require armor utilizing non-metals and uranics as opposed to metals, which would be risky.

We'd be looking at an income of:

1x Standard Mining Bay: 100 Noble Gases, 100 Uranics, 200 Hydrogen, 200 Metals, and 300 Non-Metals / Jump

And on the end of the turn, we can expect the Mjolnir to take on both an offensive and defensive role, thus bringing us down by 20 Noble Gases. Our final balance in this situation would be...

440 Advanced Plastics
480 Noble Gases
600 Uranics
1000 Hydrogen (bay income - reactor costs per jump)
200 Metals
700 Non-Metals

Which is sufficient for a AWIMP bay and a single wimp. We should upgrade the Chtorr extensively for this, allowing it to gather hydrogen and further increasing it's material income per drone. Assuming we do that in this turn's revision process alongside a drone capacity enhancement, it'll provide a great launch point from this. To be honest, we might actually want to do a general Chtorr income revision or two instead of the planned capacity enhancement, given no plan lets us afford a second Chtorr AND obtaining defensive/offensive capabilities other than the industrial options, detailed below.

3. The Saker Approach - We can additionally replace the Mjolnir in the above plan with two Saker laser turrets for precision damage at a lower cost, and invest further into either armor or resource acquisition to repair sustained damage. This would have the following effect on our budget:

460 Advanced Plastics
300 Noble Gases
400 Uranics
1,000 Hydrogen
200 Metals
300 Non-Metals

Probably leaving us with sufficient funds for appropriate armoring, if it is developed in time.

4. The Industrial Approach - We chill for the first Jump and invest heavily in armor and resource acquisition, investing in two fully upgraded AWIMP modules (as they are now - not accounting for improvements here) upon finalizing the project and using the rest for armor. Since they use 2 Power, our auxiliary reactor should provide more than enough juice to fuel them. Another thing we could do is add in a fixed Kesler for point defense, which will be detailed in the 'Defended Industrial Approach'. The cost of this approach would be...

80 Uranics, 800 Metal, 1600 Non-Metal

Necessitating the "Scrap" option in the event. This would leave us in the following resource situation:

500 Advanced Plastics
500 Noble Gases
420 Uranics
1,000 Hydrogen
200 Metals
50 Non-Metals

And we would see a turn-ly income equal to the following, assuming we send the Gen-Chtorr wimps onto metals and non-metals as a maximum priority:

1x Standard Mining Bay: 100 Noble Gases, 100 Uranics, 200 Hydrogen, 200 Metals, and 300 Non-Metals / Jump
4x WIMPs: 500 Metals and 500 Non-metals / Jump

Leaving us with a total of...

500 Advanced Plastics
600 Noble Gases
520 Uranics
1,100 Hydrogen
900 Metals
850 Non-Metals

Which would most likely be more than enough to repair our armor and buy new offensive armaments, or alternatively a more potent powerplant, as we'd be at 9/12 with our current one, making all our current gear impossible to afford simply in terms of power otherwise. This is, of course, assuming we don't lose any wimps and no modules are outright destroyed due to armor failure.

5. The Defended Industrial Approach - We buy an additional Kesler system in addition to the Industrial approach for added security. This would increase the chance that we'll escape unscathed, but would require a functional and finished Kesler system on time (and is thus a gamble, like the offensive options, but less so). This scenario is hypothetical, as we wouldn't have enough resources to actually purchase a Kesler system without sacrificing a WIMP on one of the modules, reducing our earnings in either Metals or Non-Metals by 250 when compared to the above scenario.

Transposing the cost of a Kesler over that of a WIMP:

20 Noble Gases, 100 Metal, 250 Non-Metal vs 20 Uranics, 100 Metal, 200 Non-Metal

We see that, given the "Scrap" option, this route is feasible, but reduces our ability to recover from damage quite as extensively as the first option assuming the enemy brings out a weapon as effective as the Mjolnir or of similar effect to unarmored modules.

4 Dice
Better fire control for the Mjolnir?
More drones in one bay for the AWIMP?
Faster firing speed on the Saker? (Because to many Mjolner will get Pricey fast, both in noble gas and in non-metal(700 of the damn things)
See about fixing the stability problem for the stellarator?
Better target tracking for the Kestral?
See if we can patch the lifesupport as a temporary measure?

Currently, the Mjolnir is the most risky aspect of any plan as it requires 18 points to finish due to that dreadful time roll. We gain 3 per turn, meaning it would be ready in 6 Jumps without investment - which is unacceptable. Investing 3 Dice, the chance of getting 15 points is around 9.26%. If we want to reduce the number of jumps necessary to 1 (available on Jump 4), we're looking at a 37.5% chance of success, leaving us with 7 dice next turn to spend on whatever - potentially 1 design and 4 revisions like this turn, or outright 7 revisions to polish all our essential gear for the fight instead of starting new projects. Given combat Starts on Jump 3, if we can't revise armor, or invest dice during the Revision Phase, we won't be able to get it done before Jump 4 regardless of it's simplicity and Progress roll - so the latter might be more useful. This means we should expect battle damage and shouldn't exactly worry about armor all that much. I'd edit the above plans, but I feel they are still valid representations of our situation even without armor, as it wasn't accounted for anyways.

In terms of dice, the AWIMP bay is cruical in terms of priority - which is obvious given our situation, and so is SOME form of either point defense or offensive capability. A single Saker could be mounted with the current setup, but we'd need to pimp it out for combat purposes for it to be especially useful. Assuming next turn we invest dice into the two, our odds are as follows:

State of Projects at the Design Phase of Jump 2
Saker: 4/5
AWIMP: 3/8
Mjolnir: 3/18

Investing 3 dice:
Investing 2 dice:
Investing 1 die:

Mjolnir:
 
3.90% Available on Jump 2.
0% Available on Jump 2.
[0% Within Scope of Analysis]
33.5% Available on Jump 3.
0.39% Available on Jump 3.
                         

Saker:

[Unnecessary Usage of Resources]
[Unnecessary Usage of Resources]
100% Available on Jump 2

AWIMP:

99.76% Available on Jump 2.
90.62% Available on Jump 2.
25% Available on Jump 2.
100% Available on Jump 3.
100% Available on Jump 3.
93.75% Available on Jump 3.

Assuming Combat happens at the Start of Jump 3, we should not invest in armor* and should utilize the remaining dice to fix issues with our gear or otherwise accelerate their progress along so they arrive on Turn 2, assuming we can purchase them that same turn. If Combat starts at the end of Jump 3, then we can invest in armor on Jump 2 and still manage to finish it by the time we encounter the enemy, and thus purchase it that turn. Given we don't know when resource acquisition happens (before or after the production phase for that jump), we'll just assume it happens after or during combat, and that we won't be getting any more resources if that is the case, voiding events.

*unless it is possible to invest in the time WHILE developing the project, where-in we should dogpile 5 dice into it for the best odds of getting it done instantly, since I doubt armor would take a very long time to develop.

While my ramble here has certainly been lengthy, I do hope I've contributed to the analysis of the situation enough so as to warrant it's creation. Hopefully, this will be useful in guiding our efforts towards a more effective strategy and let us use the "stops" and dice we have left in a useful fashion. This should be taken as just that, a guide, and everything said here should be taken with a grain of salt, as it is mostly based on speculation, while we still have all our resources and between 14 and 19 unused dice before combat. There is ample time for change in that timespan.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:19:16 am by Thanik »
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frostgiant

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #159 on: July 19, 2018, 12:39:39 pm »

Not a whole lot of revisions actually put up so,
An obvious first thing we can spend a dice on, trying to get rid of that 150% damage increase after combat. That would get pricey fast in repairs.

P-01 Stellarator Iron Stability

The Stellarator as it is right now is capable of outputting a truly staggering amount of power and is the base upon which our Laser weaponry has taken shape. AS of right now, however, this truly prodigious amount of power comes at a cost, The reactor is unstable and potentially dangerous. Thankfully the current temporary stabilizers ensure that in combat it will not suffer a failure in the plasma circuits. This project, named after the most stable element, is to improve it and make the current stabilizers a little more permanent hopefully prevent the plasma escaping outside of combat, As well as adding more redundancy for the current magnets to help the generator operate while under fire.

Does anyone have any ideas for how we can make more drones fit in the hangar without making them smaller? I'm worried if we make them smaller they'll mine less. I have a couple Ideas, but their not the best right now. In the original design the hangar was a cylinder, so the Chtorr were meant to Curl up and go inside like a disk or a stack of hamburgers  (with room between for engineers) if i'm reading that right.
Maybe instead we have them stay straiten out and dock with the end of the hangar bay more like a quiver of arrows, and keep the curling function for hiding in asteroids? or we can see apart removing some of the platings and use an elastic material that will inflate/stretch when in use and shrink down in between bands of the hull?
Not the best Ideas so I didn't want to type them up yet and wanted to see what anyone else had.

Those would be the two must have revisions that I can think of. So we have 2 revisions just to generally improve our things, instead of patching holes.

Huh, I didn't actually notice that the Chtorr didn't mine Hydrogen. Oh well, it's not a problem if we keep a mining bay around.
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frostgiant

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #160 on: July 19, 2018, 12:59:43 pm »

PM'd Chief on discord, the dice is just a +1 for the next phase. Scrapping the room it is.
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Thanik

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #161 on: July 19, 2018, 01:56:22 pm »

Here's my take on a reactor revision~!
Spoiler: Project RESET (click to show/hide)

Now, this might be more of a design than a revision, but I think it'd be worth it if we can find the time to make it.

And a revision-tier cheap armor system:

Now for the WIMP-oriented revisions...

And the laser oriented revisions I had in mind...

I'll prepare other revisions soon-ish tomorrow, maybe.

(You can literally feel the sleep deprivation creeping into my edits...)

Edit: Finally getting around to writing that vanilla bay revision. Please hold.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 03:12:28 am by Thanik »
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helmacon

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2018, 03:54:59 pm »

Someone was talking about modular life support, but lets take that idea and apply it to armor to whenever we design it.
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Thanik

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2018, 04:18:05 pm »

Someone was talking about modular life support, but lets take that idea and apply it to armor to whenever we design it.

Armor is already an add-on, so we can probably easily make it something you can add in multiple "levels" of protection. Generally speaking I'd want to make some armor that can sustain kinetic damage and protect against lasers, with sensors on modular 'panels' that we can replace as needed.

I'll also propose possible Gen. Chtorr fixes and improvements, improvements for the Saker and the Kesler, and... additional improvements for the base mining bay! Currently, we might as well improve what we already have so we can get more resources that way than just hope we'll be able to afford everything we want.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 06:02:10 pm by Thanik »
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Thanik

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Re: Arks Race - Tokari: Ark Anvil (Jump 1, Revision)
« Reply #164 on: July 21, 2018, 10:47:27 am »

The lack of replies is worrisome. So, right now, for the Saker, our goal is to increase power (to deal more damage) without increasing the power input, and to fix it's slow rate of fire, which we could do by giving it some interesting capacitor setup, which might somewhat increase it's non-metal / metal cost depending on how we execute it.

For the vanilla mining bay, I was thinking of just outright improving the shuttlecraft to both relay scan results to wimps, to boost them, and improving it's own mining instruments so it can give us more of everything.

Thoughts?
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