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[Lioneez]

soo.. is the problem of dwarves going into an everlasting depression after witnessing death got fixed?

[Mort Stroodle]

soo.. is the problem of dwarves going into an everlasting depression after witnessing death got fixed?

It has been lessened, to an extent, but it's still a pretty serious issue. I got a fort lasting ten years by expelling every hagard dorf I saw, and using lava defenses to limit the corpse count, but eventually the insanity caught up to me when a goblin seige clashed with an elf siege leaving altogether too many bodies. I have heard that discipline training (put your entire fort in military squads and have them train a few months a year) substantially mitigates things, so a better managed fort could probably last quite a bit longer than mine did.

[PatrikLundell]

I find 0.44.12 to be manageable (as opposed to the reports from 0.44.10-11, which caused me not to try), but yes, they're still very much on the (over) sensitive side. My carpenter worked fine for over 15 years, and then was sent in a squad to mop up about 5 camping siegers, and that was it. There's no way to break that spiral, although having mooded means the bugger doesn't die, just stumble obliviously and enter depression from time to time, then snap out of it. I've been able to turn a couple of risk cases around, but lost another citizen. My gremlin went bonkers before applying for citizenship, probably largely due to being naked (and only gremlins can make gremlin sized clothes). A merc went blinking red arrow very quickly, probably 1-2 months, but was described as a nervous wreck (but you have no info about that before hiring), which caused me to send that squad on a raid a lot earlier than intended (and they'll never return, as expeditions don't work for dead civs due to a bug).

It's a bit annoying with the visitors that either break spontaneously, or do so when residence applications are rejected, though (2 of those buggers committed suicide in my water cistern, despite there being ramps to allow exit from the water).

[FantasticDorf]

Discipline training & quickly rushing dwarves into a citizen corpse stockpile with wheelbarrows & 'airlock' doors to break line of sight removes a good 60% since haulers dont get scared as easily as bystanders similar to web collectors, moving the corpse through the fortress as quickly as possible and into a room where dwarves can't see the larger pile.

• Also witnessing lots of corpses in the same distance near each other adds to the horror (which toady toned down) so it's deliberately a small corpse pile room with a bridge crusher down the hallway for excess waste rather than a lava-chute.

Though very amusingly, 4 years of screaming over seeing a dead dwarf in recurring memories eventually caused a planter to build up enough discipline to stop but that was a very annoying caveat to the new memory system that draws on past events to the very literal present after it was scary enough to scream the first time, then they kept repeating the action each time they remembered it often replacing what they were doing.

My gremlin went bonkers before applying for citizenship, probably largely due to being naked (and only gremlins can make gremlin sized clothes).

But yeah, this sounds like a big problem given how being locked inside cages can make them go bonkers with a lack of sleep, now there's the added mental pressure of clothes for wild caught intelligent creautres & semi-sapients (which is very annoying in modded games when i need to supply polar bear man sized clothes as a best next fit)

Im pretty sure you can make gremlin clothes under (D) details where the vague size listings are (needs improvement) but yes a gremlin tailor (not that you can make gremlins have any labours than they are able) can only really sort them out without a dwarf tailor (through you) guessing the best next size and giving it to them.

• Im not sure whether you knew, but pets will equip clothes of the right sizing off stockpiles, even amongst semi-sapients because they are impromptu fortress members if not fortress citizens.

[Fleeting Frames]

||

No gremlin between green tree frog men and grey parrot men. The polar bear man workaround doesn't work here, because the smallest option is kobolds, which are twice as big as gremlins.

Also, seems some are reporting what they consider depresion issues even when they're running without sieges and with all standard pre-needs general emotional support on reddit, so the corpses are not everything. (OTOH, a fortress where everyone is happy is not as interesting.)

[FantasticDorf]

oh just to clear up confusion, polar bear men clothes are ENORMOUS and hence used in my modded games to dress trolls (for a idea of size), just open a mantis report to address the gremlin clothing problem/inconsistency or summarily press for the size of gremlins to be standardised to be a tiny bit bigger or smaller.

They're getting lonely from not being near family members not in my fort, restless for not being able to wander for too long despite having downtime to do exactly that, restless after being unable to do abstract thinking (How do you even solve this?), lonely after being unable to make merry for too long, etc, etc. All of these random negative thoughts that I don't seem to be able to fix despite an overwhelmingly lavish quality of life for them all.

Yeah, pretty much the finger on the pulse that if you dont know exactly what activity fufills what need you can't tailor the sometimes very specfic need fufillment, needs to be more accessible or the archetype 'guild' specialisation of interests breifly touched upon in the FOTF discussion on things like miner guilds having likeminded individuals to speed along faster so its easier to fufill a certain type of dwarves need and more cleanly identify problem ones.

[PatrikLundell]

There's no point in posting another bug report for gremlins: Toady is aware that there are many things that don't work properly with them (such as the inability to see their thoughts, assign jobs to them without Dwarf Therapist, requiring retraining when citizen but too occupied hauling (automatically enabled, with no vanilla means to disable) to bother showing up for retraining, being sapient but yet butcherable, etc.), and there's no reason to assume those issues will be fixed until wild animal people are addressed so they can apply for residence "from the wild" in one way or another, which probably means "tribes" will need to be implemented first. Gremlins are currently the only vanilla case of this being possible. Fixing these issues for gremlins alone is probably way down on the priority list: it makes more sense to deal with it as part of a larger animal people package.

Until someone pointed out that unspecified clothing size matched that of the tailor (gremlin), I modded the gremlin raws to match the size of kobolds, and since my nudity induced insanity incident I've reverted to that work around (but haven't caught any new gremlins).

[Farmerbob]

This is sort of a necro in a way, but I would like to mention something.

In the 44.06 Release, there was a line item:

(*) Stopped animals from forming grudges and other chat-based relationships

Now, I can understand animals not creating chat-based relationships, but reasonably intelligent animals can certainly form grudges.

More intelligent animals should be able to dislike specific dwarves that have hurt them.

Less intelligent animals (incapable of telling dwarves apart) might simply develop a grudge against ALL dwarves.

Low intelligence animals would not be able to develop grudges, as they are simply reflex-driven.

I might have misunderstood this bit, and the change was only for chat-based grudges, but I could parse it a couple different ways.

An example of the opposing parses:

1) If the change keeps dogs from developing a grudge because a Dwarf said something to them, then that makes sense.
2) If the change keeps dogs from developing a grudge after a Dwarf harms them (or harms a Dwarf the dog is bonded to) then that makes a lot less sense.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Suggestions forum is what you need.

[Mystik]

I do not like this concept. After all, it's just a matter of knowledge.
Look, you meet with experience. Repeatedly. These experiences have common features. Then, it can be assumed that in the second experience there is that which is in the first.

In the process of knowledge and science, it is extremely necessary. Personal experience. Using geoalgebra, I tried to arrange certain lines, and check what should be formed. I can't do it in my head. Seeing, at least, one sign, I immediately build a hypothesis about how everything should be. If this hypothesis is broken, then it is not something bad.

To solve problems, you need to guess. And for this, you need to build low-performance hypotheses. Everyone who solves school problems knows this.


Secondly, it is impossible to divide creatures into smart, and stupid. But, they can be divided by the ability to solve problems.

[FantasticDorf]

Suggestions forum is what you need.

Indeed, and as the person who uploaded the issue report regarding animals having uneven friendships (& related grudges) to dwarves where they weren't supposed to exist, i can confirm for you @Farmerbob that this was more of a odd issue than your psuedosuggestion puts out and obstructive to the game rather than expanding it.

Animals (of the large and non-intelligent variety) in DF are unlike the real world where they might have a semblence of individuality they are slightly varied clones of their RAW. Semisapients are capable of possessing a personality however, which is set randomly and will affect how they respond in the wild, 1 out of every 5 troglodytes who might avoid or run away from your dwarves will be brave enough to charge headfirst and attack for instance.

Little bit of modding on semi-sapients can adjust and fixate these values to how you want them but social values would just be wasted on them compared to adjustments that shape how they react to situations, being headstrong or skittish etc.

@Mystik were you supposed to quote that like that? I think you have the quotation link for your response wrong, but to just add, smart and stupid always does have a reasonable amount of middle ground, but giving a large animal any low level of intelligence changes them into the middle state of semi sapient [SLOW_LEARNER] unless they're much like a gremlin or mushroom men found in the wild.

[Mystik]

In a cruel world, based on my experience. Creating seeing violence from one dwarf will be considered a criminal to all dwarves.

But all the worlds are cruel. So, as animals are divided into herbivores and predators. Obviously, if a creature kills my brother, then similar creatures will also be predators.

If an animal is found more often with other animals than with intelligent creatures (not domestic ones), then it should generalize the crimes to all ...

Reasonable creatures of the same species may vary in their attitude towards animals.

[Farmerbob]

Suggestions forum is what you need.

Indeed, and as the person who uploaded the issue report regarding animals having uneven friendships (& related grudges) to dwarves where they weren't supposed to exist, i can confirm for you @Farmerbob that this was more of a odd issue than your psuedosuggestion puts out and obstructive to the game rather than expanding it.

Animals (of the large and non-intelligent variety) in DF are unlike the real world where they might have a semblence of individuality they are slightly varied clones of their RAW. Semisapients are capable of possessing a personality however, which is set randomly and will affect how they respond in the wild, 1 out of every 5 troglodytes who might avoid or run away from your dwarves will be brave enough to charge headfirst and attack for instance.

Little bit of modding on semi-sapients can adjust and fixate these values to how you want them but social values would just be wasted on them compared to adjustments that shape how they react to situations, being headstrong or skittish etc.

@Mystik were you supposed to quote that like that? I think you have the quotation link for your response wrong, but to just add, smart and stupid always does have a reasonable amount of middle ground, but giving a large animal any low level of intelligence changes them into the middle state of semi sapient [SLOW_LEARNER] unless they're much like a gremlin or mushroom men found in the wild.

I do not doubt that a change was made to address a problem.  My only concern was that the wording of the change log could be read to mean that Toady performed the code equivalent of a foot amputation to cure a hangnail.  The comment was just as much a question as a suggestion, and I believe it was right for me to word it that way, as I was unsure of what exactly was done.

[TomiTapio]

I may have found a repeatable crash-to-desktop. Here's the installed Windows 64bit game and OldGenesis mod save, it crashed twice.
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14665

(Make sure the crash isn't mod related first though. Oldgenesis seems to modify quite a lot).

Of course the crash cannot be repeated on vanilla DF, the variables are too many.
Running the same save in a debug enviroment might reveal the missing nullpointer-or-other check.

I filed a bug report: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11215

[Shonai_Dweller]

I may have found a repeatable crash-to-desktop. Here's the installed Windows 64bit game and OldGenesis mod save, it crashed twice.
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14665

Post a link to that save on the bug tracker. This thread is mostly dead, and will be replaced and locked when the new release hits in a week or so.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/my_view_page.php

(Make sure the crash isn't mod related first though. Oldgenesis seems to modify quite a lot).