Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[zennyrpg]

Personally, I think the 7 starting dorfs should kinda expect what they're getting into as should the first 3-5 migrant waves.

I believe you'll find each of your starting seven, at least, "likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly at inclement weather," which does help a bit.

That's pretty much exclusively a message about cave adaptation, doesn't do anything about inclement weather at all actually, just makes them not feel nauseous upon surfacing

I had a 35 year old above ground fort.  I went back and counted the living dwarves (plus one I exhiled and had a screen shot for).  All the adults had lived there more than 2 years and there were 3 children 2 years or less old.  ~2 years seems to be the time after something bad happens to the dwarf that it manifests as a personality change.  I counted the dwarves that had changes cited as "caught in the rain".  This is on 44.12  Here are my results:

"Likes working outdoors and grumbles only mildly"- Has rain change: 0 No rain change: 9
"Does not mind being outdoors, at least for a time"- Has rain change: 0 No rain change: 9
No "outdoors" description- Has rain change: 22 No rain change: 0
Equal or less than 2 years old- No rain change: 3

As you can see, both of those descriptions were a perfect predictor of rain related personality changes in my fort.  Therefore, lacking other evidence, I believe dwarves with those traits are immune from related personality changes.  This does not necessarily make them immune from unhappy thoughts-- only that the unhappy thoughts do not manifest into personality changes.

[FantasticDorf]

Interesting new report by Hedrawig "0011193: Quarreler and Flatterer reputations seem unobtainable despite clear actions to get them."

I've never really looked into it but the Reputations wiki entry has fort specific examples, is this the reason why dwarf behaviours socially are so regressive because these are broke? I can't even see any gui fields for GM editor.

This is mind blowingly relevant, considering the failure much of the time to complete bandit killing quests, identifying yourself to kill neutral nations (which doesnt work), and tamed creatures that are meant to be bonded flipping out. Some of these are fortress specific or adventure specific, but the more i look into it the more things turn up.

Biggest one is where dwarves all collectively gain amnesia, which is word for word the same as the issue report if a reputation is meant to be attributed between modes.

[therahedwig]

so... I am doing the reputation science that led to that bugreport, as well as the updates on the wiki here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175195.0

Relationships and reputation is indeed very interconnected. As far as I can tell, most reputation has a relationship status associated with it, so friends have a friend reputation, grudges a grudge reputation. Familial relationships are a separate thing here, so is romance. I am still not sure how everything is exactly stored, it seems at the least a part of the relationship is stored on a per-unit level, another part on a hist-fig level and yet another part on an entity level. (DFHack lua reading results in entities carrying the big reputations, such as bard, poet, killer, defender of the weak, and histfigs carying the interpersonal ones, so quarelling, good for bussiness, friends, friendly, source of info. But there's also, when you do a dance, that adventure mode npcs know you as a dancer now, but it hasn't propagated to the entity yet, nor is it stored at the histfig level, so I suspect there's another place this stuff is stored which isn't the relationship ids in the unit)

But yeah, this also kind of blew my mind when I saw it, as it seems from the dfhack values and string dump that all of the reputations have an associated relationship status (considers quareller, considers poet). But you don't see them in fort mode for some reason???

I still think the main problem here is dwarves' chatting radius being super small, but the lack of reputation-related relationships showing up indicates there's other messiness going on as well.

[FantasticDorf]

I've ran super efficient talking spaces before as tight as i can pack them, and arguementiveness is usually one of the core needs that are always fufilled but never go anywhere so im not fully sure if that is the case. Sorry if i've come across as rather over-enthusiastic but its a very interesting development.

*ah i've had time to read through your research now, good stuff.

I set up some suggestions too to help try and regulate and work out some bridge-gap links where i think the AI is disjointed in its reaction. Like alcohol guzzlers and vermin, which might be seen as 'not innocent' and therefore worthy of little thought when they die.

[Fleeting Frames]

I made a support DFHack script to attempt to buy liked stuff from caravans today, and I've seen some dorfs actually eat various kinds of cheese they like after the human caravan provided stuff (including lots of fish). It's tested on exactly one caravan, so there are probably bugs (no animals bought for slaughter, for instance).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[code]
function buy_food_needs ()
  if df.global.gview.view.child.child == nil or
     df.global.gview.view.child.child._type ~= df.viewscreen_tradelistst or
     df.global.gview.view.child.child.child._type ~= df.viewscreen_tradegoodsst then
    dfhack.error ("This script must be run when the trade screen is open")
  end
 
  local preferences = {}
 
  for i, unit in ipairs (df.global.world.units.all) do
    if dfhack.units.isCitizen (unit) and
       dfhack.units.isAlive (unit) and
       unit.status.current_soul then
      for k, preference in ipairs (unit.status.current_soul.preferences) do
        if preference.active then
          if  preference.type == df.unit_preference.T_type.LikeFood then
            local found = false
           
            for l, pref in ipairs (preferences) do
              if pref.mattype == preference.mattype and
                 pref.matindex == preference.matindex and
                 pref.item_type == preference_item_type then
                found = true
                break
              end
            end
           
            if not found then
             table.insert (preferences, preference)
            end
          end
        end
      end
    end
  end
 
  for i, item in ipairs (df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_items) do
    if item._type == df.item_cagest then  --  may contain food item_critterst, but at most one.
      if #item.general_refs == 1 then
        local unit = df.unit_type.find (item.general_refs [0].unit_id)
       
        for k, preference in ipairs (preferences) do
          if preference.matindex == -1 and  --  It's an animal
             unit.race == preference.mattype then
            dfhack.println ("Buying caged " .. df.global.world.raws.creatures.all [preference.mattype].name [0])
            df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
            break
           
          else
            local material = dfhack.matinfo.decode (preference.mattype, preference.matindex)
           
            if material.mode == "creature" and
               unit.race == preference.mattype and
               material.id ~= "CHEESE" and
               material.id ~= "MILK" and
               material.id ~= "EGGSHELL" and  --  Are there any preferences for eggs at all?
               material.id ~= "EGG_WHITE" and
               material.id ~= "EGG_YOLK" then     
            local pref
           
            if material.material.prefix == "" then
              pref = material.material.state_name.Solid
             
            else
              pref = material.material.prefix .. " " .. material.material.state_name.Solid
            end
           
            dfhack.println ("Buying caged " .. df.global.world.raws.creatures.all [preference.mattype].name [0] .. " for " .. pref)               
            df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
            break
            end
          end
        end
      end

    elseif item._type == df.item_liquid or  --  ###
           item._type == df.item_powder or  --  ###
           item._type == df.item_seedst or
           item._type == df.item_meatst or
           item._type == df.item_plantst or
           item._type == df.item_plant_growthst or
           item._type == df.item_cheesest or
           item._type == df.item_globst then
      for k, preference in ipairs (preferences) do
        local material = dfhack.matinfo.decode (preference.mattype, preference.matindex)
         
        if preference.matindex ~= -1 and
           item.mat_type == preference.mattype and
           item.mat_index == preference.matindex then
          local pref
           
          if material.material.prefix == "" then
            pref = material.material.state_name.Solid
           
          else
            pref = material.material.prefix .. " " .. material.material.state_name.Solid
          end
           
          dfhack.println ("Buying " .. pref)               
          df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
          break
        end
      end
           
    elseif item._type == df.item_fishst or
           item._type == df.item_fish_rawst then --  Which one? This or previous one?
      for k, preference in ipairs (preferences) do
        local material = dfhack.matinfo.decode (preference.mattype, preference.matindex)
       
        if preference.item_type == df.item_type.FISH then
          if preference.matindex == -1 then
            dfhack.println ("Buying " .. df.global.world.raws.creatures.all [preference.mattype].name [0])
            df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
           
          elseif material.mode == "creature" and  --  No fish producing milk or eggs, yet...
                 item.race == preference.mattype then
            local pref
           
            if material.material.prefix == "" then
              pref = material.material.state_name.Solid
           
            else
              pref = material.material.prefix .. " " .. material.material.state_name.Solid
            end
           
            dfhack.println ("Buying " .. pref)               
            df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
            break
          end
        end
      end
     
--    elseif --  item._type == item_foodst or  --  Cooked meals aren't sold (yet)
--           item._type == df.item_drinkst or  --  Should always be in a barrel
--           item._type == df.item_eggst then  --  Don't think there can be egg preferences due to eggs being 3 "creature" parts...               
         
    elseif item._type == df.item_barrelst or
           item._type == df.item_boxst then  -- for bags...
      if #item.general_refs == 1 then
        local content = df.unit_type.find (item.general_refs [0].unit_id)
       
        for k, preference in ipairs (preferences) do
          local material = dfhack.matinfo.decode (preference.mattype, preference.matindex)
         
          if preference.matindex ~= -1 and
             (content._type == df.item_liquid or
              content._type == df.item_powder or
              content._type == df.item_seedst or
              content._type == df.item_meatst or
              content._type == df.item_plantst or
              content._type == df.item_plant_growthst or
              content._type == df.item_cheesest or
              content._type == df.item_globst and
              content.mat_type == preference.mattype and
              content.mat_index == preference.matindex) then
            local pref
           
            if material.material.prefix == "" then
              pref = material.material.state_name.Solid
             
            else
              pref = material.material.prefix .. " " .. material.material.state_name.Solid
            end
           
            dfhack.println ("Buying bag/barrel with " .. pref)               
            df.global.gview.view.child.child.child.trader_selected [i] = 1
            break
          end
        end       
      end
    end
  end
end
buy_food_needs ()
[/code]

The script is run from while you're on the trade screen, and it simply goes through the list of items for sale and match them against preferred food of citizens, marking each match for purchase. There is no check against what you have in stock or whether you can afford it, though, so it will happily select everything it finds matching. It might be useful to handle at least some food preference issues, as the dorfs I'm losing essentially are lost to the combination of no friends, no family, and no decent meals.

Huh, neat idea; though I was contemplating marking all desired prefs as requested goods (also gets around "want to eat giant lovebird heart in particular"). Should be relatively easy adaptation.

2018 was long ago, but felt like doing it: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:Fleeting_Frames/order_takeout

Doesn't work on tree growths yet (I lack test save for that atm).

[Robsoie]

Looks like the new version have changed nothing in term of dwarves unable to make new friends without some forced setup like this one :
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.msg7799648#msg7799648

I have been running a normal fortress with no modded files (with normal tavern+normal temple) as in "nothing is made to "game" the system to force relationships" and after some years with that fort , the dwarves out of the starting seven only have lots of "passing acquaintances" and never made any new friend (and so even less find someone to marry).

[FantasticDorf]

I have a super efficient tavern/performance area here, developing the method i've show before, the 1x12 strip allows dwarves & visitors to interact with people at the tables and overall it a legendary dining room and gives nice thoughts to offset.



All that's required is a 5x5 space to do their dancing/musical activities for needs, but they 'socialise' in areas without distractions (like guild halls) and pick up dabbling skills, not really progressing their dabbling social skills though. Migrants are also arriving 8/10 with no social skills either.

• A recommendation would be to have the 'Socialise' in meeting areas too by default to make them go there, when they really have nothing to do they could idle.

Try modifying the rate of social skills to a baseline of adequate and get back if there's any development.

[Symmetry]

FantasticDwarf, I understand the theory but when I implement these 1 wide strips of tavern I get almost 0 progress in friendships still.
There are a very few non starting 7 dwarves with 2 or 3 friends after years of this.

Is there anything else to it?  Am I expecting too much progress?

[FantasticDorf]

FantasticDwarf, I understand the theory but when I implement these 1 wide strips of tavern I get almost 0 progress in friendships still.
There are a very few non starting 7 dwarves with 2 or 3 friends after years of this.

Is there anything else to it?  Am I expecting too much progress?

I did mention dabbling social skills (of which in 47.xx do improve in ALL fields when not working), the theory least makes them meet other dwarves and also visitors successfully and some other comments on investigating mind structures, usually yields that the visitors have a 1 sided friendship with the dwarf if there long enough or on repeat visits because they can already speak fluently from offmap experience.

• A direct edit to baseline conversational ability and/or learning rate + a [SKILL_ROLL_RANGE] building for forced conversation xp are intervention options

If dwarf relationships level is like a scale of 1 to a 100, if they're already friends then its like median anywhere for the starting seven of '50-75' before they marry, or become kindred spirits (which is the new exalted type of friendship above 'close friends') then its easy to see why a big period of inactivity gives in to rust and low skills count the single digits rather than rapid progression. Friendlier less insulated personalities often immigrate with better worldgen skills, like a expert comedian and pacifier who became my compulsary mayor.

All things in DF take time though, im trying to progress my fort design without implicitly changing anything.

[doublestrafe]

I made a quick 5x5 dining room in my current fort, and by a year and a half in two of my dwarves were getting married. Which upsets me because I don't want death driver babies.

[Superdorf]

Death driver babies aren't a thing anymore, apparently. The last bugfix release took care of that!

[Superdorf]

Guys
guys guys guys

Released Dwarf Fortress 0.47.03

- Added person-seeking behavior to socialize activity and to jobless milling about in zones
- Changed stress calculation for high vulnerability personalities

New stress mitigations!

[Orkel]

Many of my stressed dwarves became unstressed when I ported the save to 47.03, so it seems to be working. The dwarves are also clumping up nicely in temples, guildhalls and the tavern, implying social relationships are finally being made.

[FantasticDorf]

Social cohesion is a little bit disproportionate even though they seem to be correctly talking to each other.

It might just be a lot like planters, small skills with small yields, definitely tapping into my previous comments about modifying the social skill rate or setting a baseline so that they can interact with other dwarves from a social skill of 0 non awkwardly without taking seasons to get anywhere (Or if you like that, just keep it at that. Dwarves already have quite reclusive personalities and refer to honeymoon suites)

I've actually not seen any thoughts of improving a social skill anywhere outside of leaving the dwarves at the trade depot for extended periods of time (and thankfully that dwarf was a ex-peddler and pre-supplied a decent amount of social skills, so maybe the bigger interaction gave a bigger xp reward)

[Dragonborn]

In my current 47.03 fort, I had a particular dwarf who was distracted by many different needs.  He worshiped about 10 different gods, and was complaining that we couldn't communicate with one of his gods.  So I watched him for a while.  I think the newer versions of the game handle polytheist dwarves a lot better than they used to.  He stood in my temple with a purple text "Worship!" task, and it would cycle through each of his gods.  Eventually it got to the one he was distracted over and that need got satisfied.  So not only do they cycle through different gods properly, they stop worshiping when needed and don't constantly pray.

Then I noticed he was distracted over lack of making merry, and lack of taking it easy.  He fixed this himself by going to my tavern and drinking/socializing/telling a story/listening to a story.  It seems the "taking it easy" need is simply satisfied by giving your dwarfs some down time and a tavern to hang out in.  After all of that, he went from "distracted to unmet needs" to "he is somewhat focused with satisfied needs".

It seems the key here is to give your dwarfs time off to fulfill their needs outside of work.  Dwarfs that worship a lot of gods may need more time off to satisfy their prayer need.  My fort had everything he needed to fulfill the need, but he couldn't do it because I had him working too much.  Fixing it didn't require disabling any labor, but I gave the fort a month or two off of major jobs, i.e no mass creation of items.  The only persistent job I had was a lot of hauling.