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[Parisbre56]

Ask Clate if he knows anything about if Undertow is older than Kirk or the relationship between Corven and Shluck. For that matter, do I know any stories about Corven and Shluck? Legends or sayings and such?

Could I pay someone to dive to make me a sort of pokeball or Ghostbusters trap? I'm thinking of a single use bazooka-like device that would teleport whatever object I'm aiming at (or better yet a ball-shaped chunk of space from where I'm aiming at) inside it and then put it in stasis via Neth. Would probably have to be two dives, one for the teleportation and one for the stasis. The fact that it teleports things would really help me if I want to steal something dangerous without being seen. Maybe add some armor as well, just so that it won't break and release the potentially dangerous thing.

Also inquire on the price of armored boxes to contain dangerous things. You know, artifact containers.

Spoiler: "Kara" the Corven (click to show/hide)

Name: "Kara" is what most humans call her, though the closest pronunciation would be  Kr'ra-Kax
Race: Corven (advantage for climb, disadvantage for falls)
Appearance: She is a crow-like Corven with matte-black feathers. A bit short. Constantly moves her head around, examining her surroundings. Moves her tail up and down whenever she's excited.
Age: Adult, but just barely
Goal: Wants to find artifacts and experiences that she can use to make an (under)world-famous museum. Wants to prove herself to her mother and piss off her brother with her success (both financially and socially).

Status
Sacrificed left arm to reverse time (eaten by giant Shluck-like thing). Bandaged.

Stats
Str:11
Dex:13 
Spe:13 
End: 10
Awa:12
Cun:11 
Kno:12
Ner:12

Skills
Rifle: 1
Medical: 1
Translate: 2
Acrobatics: 1
Caving: 1
Machine Control: 1
Stealth: 1
Geology: 1
Archeology: 2
Navigation: 1

Inventory
Heavy Crystal Mirror Armour Shroud
Golden pin (in forearm)
Crystal Friend (with riding harness + Obedience Rod)
Radio
5 fathoms (1% royalty for flame)
Ethral Rifle (scope+bipod) (rifle 3, pierce 3) 6/7
Ethral Rifle magazine 7/7
Ethral Rifle magazine 6/7
Crystal Weapon
Field Lighter (Fire 2)
Shiny interconnected colorful gems
Grappling Hook + Ethral Silk rope 200 ft
1 Dynamo Lantern (Light 3)
1 Knife (Cut/Pierce 2)
2 Slave Traps
Simple Clothes (with hood)
Cot
Book (Adventures of Pilgrim)
Deck of Cards
Notes on insect saddle construction
Ancient Bird-people idols
Ancient Mole-jewels depicting unknown beast
Kara's Diary

In Storage
15 chemical junk
22 mechanical junk
Crystal Tablets (diary about All-Eater and Great Destroyer, inventory, obedience rod instructions, construct assembly instructions)
Church Documents (document ownership and events, and recommend favorable treatment)
Metal Card with the address of the Gilded Crow (corven Gangsters of Goldshore)
Mechanical Arm (not installed)
Bomb collar (unlocked)
All bomb collar remotes
A large number of shiny gold-like messenger path rocks

[Radio Controlled]

"While the promise of hidden lore might be seductive indeed, I think this course of action would be unwise bordering on the foolish. We have seen what this thing can do and the terrific power it wields. And perhaps even more distressingly, it has seen us and our capabilities, so it will be all the more dangerous this time around. I believe that our best bet is an overwhelming coordinated first strike to purge it as soon as it is revealed.

Hell, even if you could somehow convince this monster to talk with you, what assurance would you have that this thing won't just spout whatever heretical lies it thinks will give it the most chance of escaping? Finally, I'm sure there are ways of discovering whatever knowledge you seek that do not involve potentially unleashing a hideous plague upon our fragile world."

[Hotfire90]

"There is very little risk involved, it's imprisoned in the cist despite its strength, if it could escape on its own it would have done so already. It's reliant on outside help to escape, and because of that there is no risk to me, especially since I will be entering the chamber alone.

This is an unique opportunity, you know it's highly unlikely that we'll come across another newly built messenger path containing a cist, and it's even more unlikely that its prisoner will be sentient or even willing to talk. The knowledge I would gain from simply talking to it are far too great to ignore. Given the extensive knowledge I have already gained from my books, I doubt that it will be able to decieve me, since I will also be testing its knowledge about the ancient humans, I will be keenly aware of any contradictions it might make."

[Ozarck]

"Alex, how do you plan on entering the cist?"

[Hotfire90]

"By going through the door. You can open the door with the sword the saint gave you, there shouldn't be a problem closing it once I've entered. We're going to apply that same strategy when we're ready to kill the warrior won't we? Open the door, push the cart containing the bomb inside, close and detonate."

[Radio Controlled]

"Even assuming it would be content to sit still while you walk inside, what will then prevent that monster from learning of our plans and our capabilities, either by torturing it out of you, or perhaps even by ripping the information straight out of your brain? This thing took an explosion demon from the spheres beyond our own and instantly turned it into a vessel for itself, it has capabilities beyond what I ever even would have imagined. It's simply too risky."

[Hotfire90]

"You have no evidence that it is capable of such a thing, from what little we've seen its abilities are more physical in nature. Should it try to injure in any way, it will cause the shirt I'm wearing to be activated. I will then have access to its own weapons and be accompanied by a phantom who is also armed with the same weapons, so even if it does end up in a confrontation I'm confident that I'll be able to stand up to its might long enough that I can retreat back to safety."

[Ozarck]

"I confess, I am at a loss for words. I am astonished at your audacity. I must think hard on this matter. I see no benefit for myself in this course of action, and great risk. I also do not understand the reward you are seeking. Why should we risk our duty for a few scraps of ancient history? And yet, your conviction and nerve are impressive. I could almost be persuaded to allow you your chance."

[syvarris]

That's 49 rolls to the third 1, which maxes out Nyw's guard/ethral rifle skill.  I'll take that happily!  As for giving shotguns -2 on to-hit rolls with shotshells, that seems perfectly fair.  It probably won't affect Nyw, because if he's in shotgun range he's probably close enough to murakumo range, but it does give others a reason to use shotguns sometimes.

About the "HEY SY" thing:

Spoiler: On the topic of giving material rolls advantage if you're in a place related to the sphere (click to show/hide)

I very much like the idea, but as described I think it could be problematic.  The material spheres are not made equal; Balarim (technology) and Akhmah (mundane materials) would be super easy to get advantage on.  For tech, just do it in the bore, a giant technological hulk, and for mundane mats, virtually anywhere underground would work, since natural stone is everywhere.  On the other side of the coin Noth (physics) and Yengenze (mind) sound super difficult to get advantage on, ever.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, messing with physics itself does sound like it'd be harder than messing with some dumb rocks, but it does mean the system might strongly encourage using certain spheres over others.

If you go this route, advantage should definitely only come from being in a place, not just having relevant items.  Someone shouldn't be able to get permanent Noth advantage by spending 100 fathoms on magnets which they drop in their backpack.

I think if it's important to have a method of making material rolls easier, a cleaner method would be to tie it to relics.  Allow people to go adventuring in spheres for minor artifacts that give slight bonuses to certain material rolls when in your inventory.  Or maybe give the various relic fragments different "flavors", so one relic fragment benefits material rolls for Noth, while another benefits Akhmah.  Maaaybe add tiers of relic fragments, so commonplace crappy ones give -1 to their favoured sphere(s?), while a really epic one that an adventure might center around gives advantage to a single sphere.

A potential problem with that idea is that it'd somewhat encourage divers to collect all sorts of fragments to benefit all the spheres they like, possibly acting as something of a money gate/money sink for dives to certain spheres.  "Oh, we don't want to dive to Yengenze until we can get 1000 fathoms together to buy a -3 Yengenze fragment."  It would also allow basically permanent upgrades to diving ability, since if you obtain a relic which grants advantage to Telazch rolls, you will then always get advantage on fleshwarping dive material rolls, regardless of the circumstances.

Neither is necessarily negative; allowing players to progress in power by spending money is a common mechanic, as is rewarding having a larger "arsenal" of equipment, but both would noticably change how divers are played.  I think.


Edit: Another idea I had, while thinking about this.  Something nice about the "advantage when in a relevant place" mechanic is that it encourages doing dives that are aligned to the local spheres, rather than just falling back on your best stat.  Making relic fragments give bonuses to their own spheres does the exact opposite, since it causes there to be an even wider gulf between your best spheres and your secondary ones.

To make diving in places more interesting, you could have some kind of randomization mechanic on which sphere an area is tied to.  Say, when someone wants to get advantage on material checks, they first have to spend an action "attuning" to the local spheres.  Then you make a list of the kinds of things that are around, and roll a die to select one or two.  Those chosen spheres are the local dominant spheres during the encounter, and grant advantage on their material rolls.  It's far from perfect, Akhmah would still be very common while Konis (weather) would be pretty rare, but it would still give some variety in what spheres are encouraged.  Even cooler, it'd act as a kind of warning on what enemy divers are likely to try, since they would also usually choose to use advantaged spheres.

Towards the "hey can I speak with the person of mass destruction before we kill him" convo: "Perhaps a dive could enable Alex to speak with the Warrior, without ever damaging the being's containment?  I agree with Ashul, if the security of the cyst must be compromised to allow communication, then communication is a foolhardy and virtually suicidal plan.  I would only support it if risk to the rest of the crew, and our world at large, can be avoided."

Spoiler: The Unpronounceable Undead (click to show/hide)

Name: Nyw'geuq Otin Sunam; calls himself "The Lords' Child"
Description:

((TWO murakumo!  FINALLY, hahahaha!))
Goal: Inscrutable, which is code for "Talks like this.".

Stats:
Str: 15 
Dex: 9
Spe:11
End:14
Awa:14
Cun: 10
Kno: 8
Ner: 13

Skills: (One unspent skillpoint)
Guard Rifle: +3
Unarmed: +1
Defense Skill: +3 (Full Plate)
Vehicle Skill: +1
Caving: +1
Navigation: +1
Murakumo: +2 (+1/3)


Inventory:
Full Plate Armor [Protective 4]
Ornamental Mask of the Child

Extremely crude harness, holding all Nyw's weapons:
Crystal Murakumo [Cut 6, Pierce 3]
----Enchanted to remove fragility.
Crystal Murakumo [Cut 6, Pierce 3]
----Enchanted to remove fragility.
Giant Guardian Hatchet [Chop 4, ]
Three knives [Cut 2, Pierce 2]
Tungsten Toothpick [Pierce 5] (10/10)
Slave Trap
Nine smoke bombs
Five flashbangs
Tunnel Clearer shotgun [5/5 shotshells] [shotgun 3] [Pierce 3] (5 spare shotshells) (3 spare slugs) (-2 on to-hit rolls)
Guard rifle [Pierce 2] (10/10) (210 spare rounds)
Pistol [Pierce 1] (?/?)

300' of silk rope
2x Silent Night
2x Black Flame
2x Cave Spider Venom
30x Path markers
10x Injectible tranquilizer.

77 fathoms.

Followers:
Gus (Young human with minimal training.  Healthy.)
--Equipped with a small iron melee weapon [Cut 3, Pierce 3] and a Black Flame [Cutting 3]
--Equipped with a low caliber ethral rifle.  [Pierce 2] (10/10), 50 spare bullets
--Armored with a mail shirt [Protect 3], and has two smoke bombs.
Baxter (Young human with minimal training.  Healthy.)
--Equipped with a small iron melee weapon [Cut 3, Pierce 3] and a Black Flame [Cutting 3]
--Equipped with a low caliber ethral rifle.  [Pierce 2] (10/10), 50 spare bullets
--Armored with a mail shirt [Protect 3], and has two smoke bombs.

Bore NPC "recruits":
--Five moths
--One lizard dude
--Two humans

[Ozarck]

If you go this route, advantage should definitely only come from being in a place, not just having relevant items.  Someone shouldn't be able to get permanent Noth advantage by spending 100 fathoms on magnets which they drop in their backpack.

Make the Dive consume the item, as in a regular sacrifice.

A potential problem with that idea is that it'd somewhat encourage divers to collect all sorts of fragments to benefit all the spheres they like, possibly acting as something of a money gate/money sink for dives to certain spheres.

Encouraging Diving to specific spheres to collect Diving related items doesn't seem problematic at all. Diving the spheres is little different than a loot run in any of the locations our adventures have taken us as is.

Neither is necessarily negative; allowing players to progress in power by spending money is a common mechanic, as is rewarding having a larger "arsenal" of equipment, but both would noticably change how divers are played.  I think.

I agree here and think this is the biggest problem: Material rolls add an element of risk to the Dive beyond the simple nerve roll mechanic, but hte material rol fails are far less noticeable as is than the Nerve fails. I believe we've only had *one* Dive fail that was the result of a material fail (Egan's moth blowing off it's own head) while all the most impressive fails have been nerve related. The material roll fails tend to only modify the end result. But without that risk of failure, Dives become a matter of "Find calm place, roll at advantage, profit."

[Egan_BW]

That example wasn't a material failure, because the explosive wasn't the target of the dive anyway. It exploded entirely due to bad luck in the exact manner in which the explosive was sacrificed.

[Ozarck]

Then I can think of no significant problems brought about by a material failure in the game to date. Unless ... explosion snake?

[Radio Controlled]

"We have seen it suborn a being from beyond our plane to rebuild itself in a matter of moments. Doing something unthinkable to one of us seems like small potatoes compared to such a feat. And the point isn’t that it definitely has a specific ability like that, but that it has great powers we have only seen a fraction of, so to assume we know all of its tricks seems like folly to me. Which is also why I think why counting on that shirt to protect you completely is overly optimistic.

Not only that, but remember that last time that the longer the battle drew on, the more powerful it became, so giving it the chance to power up would make any subsequent steps all the more dangerous. Honestly, the only saving grace I see in all of this is that at least you’re human, and this construct seemed to still regard us with some reverence.

All that being said, this is the kind of situation where going in with a single plan, even if sub-optimal, is preferable over going in with multiple at cross-purposes. So if you can manage to convince the majority of the people going along for this to entertain this idea, I’ll work along, but for me my vote is a hard no."

[syvarris]

A couple more thoughts on getting advantage for diving material rolls, response to Ozarck.

Spoiler: Read the boldtext (click to show/hide)

Make the Dive consume the item, as in a regular sacrifice.

I did think about this, but didn't suggest it because I don't like how that mechanically works.  Having the ability to sacrifice materials for advantage on the material role is logical, but mechanically would largely amount to trading fathoms for safety.  It's functionally ammo for safe diving, except the ammo is fancy rocks or gadgets.  Gaining a benefit for diving in a relevant location has the positive aspect of making players search for appropriate locations (which could be cool, and create its own mini-adventure), and encourages players and enemies to use the local spheres in combat, rather than whatever uses their best spheres.  Gaining benefit for possessing a special and permanent relic has the positive aspect of encouraging adventuring for said relics, and the debatably-positive aspect of giving a different form of progression/specialization for divers.

Sacrificing magnets for Noth boons is comparatively uninteresting, because searching for sacrifice materials which will be used up after a couple dives isn't worth devoting much time to, and since single-use bonuses are always relatively cheap, it makes it pretty straightforward to just buy the stuff when you have an important dive.  There's ways around this, of course, but I think it's simpler and more interesting to just use attuned relics/artifacts.  That is a mechanic which can spark an adventure.

I agree here and think this is the biggest problem: Material rolls add an element of risk to the Dive beyond the simple nerve roll mechanic, but hte material rol fails are far less noticeable as is than the Nerve fails. I believe we've only had *one* Dive fail that was the result of a material fail (Egan's moth blowing off it's own head) while all the most impressive fails have been nerve related. The material roll fails tend to only modify the end result. But without that risk of failure, Dives become a matter of "Find calm place, roll at advantage, profit."

I want to point out that I have not been paying much attention to diving throughout the game.  I like DIG because Nyw is a fun and simple beatstick of a character, and I've never been terribly interested in the magic system.  If material rolls really haven't mattered, then yeah, adding a system to modify them is just a waste of time--there's no good reason to stack more mechanics on a largely ignored feature.  On the other hand, if material rolls are a source of danger, and adding the mechanic would remove that, it's much more debatable.  If I were a diver, I would of course vote for the rule change that allows me to mitigate risk, because "mitigate risk" is like 90% of my playstyle in games.  But other people tend to like danger, so removing the last bit of risk from diving would... just make it boring for those people.

I don't think any new system should be added if the actual players who play divers don't think it should be changed.  Don't fix what ain't broke.

[Ozarck]

Spoiler: Reply to the reply to the reply (click to show/hide)

Make the Dive consume the item, as in a regular sacrifice.

I did think about this, but didn't suggest it because I don't like how that mechanically works.  Having the ability to sacrifice materials for advantage on the material role is logical, but mechanically would largely amount to trading fathoms for safety.  It's functionally ammo for safe diving, except the ammo is fancy rocks or gadgets. 

a) if the ammo is expensive enough, all this does is level the playing field between Diving and, say, shooting - a skill in which Nyw has effectively traded fathoms for skill points. (Personally, I dislike that mechanic as well, for the same reasons. logically, training to gain skill makes sense, but in game, it feels like an exploit or bug. But I'm not complaining, it doesn't hurt me at all.)

Gaining a benefit for diving in a relevant location has the positive aspect of making players search for appropriate locations (which could be cool, and create its own mini-adventure), and encourages players and enemies to use the local spheres in combat, rather than whatever uses their best spheres.  Gaining benefit for possessing a special and permanent relic has the positive aspect of encouraging adventuring for said relics, and the debatably-positive aspect of giving a different form of progression/specialization for divers.

Sacrificing magnets for Noth boons is comparatively uninteresting, because searching for sacrifice materials which will be used up after a couple dives isn't worth devoting much time to, and since single-use bonuses are always relatively cheap, it makes it pretty straightforward to just buy the stuff when you have an important dive.  There's ways around this, of course, but I think it's simpler and more interesting to just use attuned relics/artifacts.  That is a mechanic which can spark an adventure.

Both of these ideas- a location or item related to a Sphere giving bonuses for that Dive - have very similar problems with current mechanics. When in a Sphere except Akhmah, Using that Sphere in a Dive has a lot of dangerous side effects. it stands to reason that being in a location where that Sphere is more prominent would share that tendency toward dangerous effects. and with an object tied to a Sphere - they don't work as sacrifices to that Sphere It stands to reason that objects closely associated with a given Sphere would not provide any kind of bonus to that Dive.

I want to point out that I have not been paying much attention to diving throughout the game.  I like DIG because Nyw is a fun and simple beatstick of a character, and I've never been terribly interested in the magic system.  If material rolls really haven't mattered, then yeah, adding a system to modify them is just a waste of time--there's no good reason to stack more mechanics on a largely ignored feature.  On the other hand, if material rolls are a source of danger, and adding the mechanic would remove that, it's much more debatable.  If I were a diver, I would of course vote for the rule change that allows me to mitigate risk, because "mitigate risk" is like 90% of my playstyle in games.  But other people tend to like danger, so removing the last bit of risk from diving would... just make it boring for those people.

I don't think any new system should be added if the actual players who play divers don't think it should be changed.  Don't fix what ain't broke.

I agree with your conclusions in this section. I do get that you are enjoying Nyw as an eccentric and simple character, and that Diving isn't something you care much about, except when it goes ugly. I also understand and appreciate that PW asked you to review the mechanic because you are good at spotting exploits and he wants to avoid stuff like the runaway mana issue in Cabal.

Spoiler: addendum. A situation that might change the discussion a bit (click to show/hide)

I just realized that there is one aspect of Diving that is generally left untouched and might benefit from one or more of the suggestions we've ben discussing: multimaterial Dives. As is, we tend to only use one of the material spheres in our Dives because the risk of failure compounds pretty significantly with multiple materials. So, having something like a relic of junctions or something would be cool to make it more accessible to use Noth And Telzach together, or something.

secondary issue, only tangentially related: For me, I just think I'd prefer the risk of failure, but honestly, Diving has a pretty steep learning curve as is and has been restricted in practical use to a few veteran players as a result. I thikn that's fine for teh setting though. But perhaps there could be a way to allow beginners to do lesser Dives, like restricting the number of Nerve Dives or Spheres a player can visit based on Diving Skill or something.
Example:
0 skill, 1 material, path no longer than 2,
1 skill, 2 material, path no longer than 4,
2 skill, 4 material, path no longer than 6,
3 skill, 7 material, path no longer than 9,