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[Starver]

(♪ Do you want to build a gabbro man? ♫)

(I know you're referencing Frozen, with the closed door etc, but what first came to my mind on reading the above was (with not quite the same words) something else...  )

[GoblinCookie]

Goblincookie, take it from someone who's played Klei's Oxygen Not Included, poorly ventilated residences is a very, very bad idea once you have any significant number of residents, unconsciousness + poor oxygen supply = not waking up.

I would say a more personal meeting area definitely interlinks well with the whole group hangout/dating idea, though making a hearth a necessity seems too restrictive on fortress design, so perhaps call it a rec room? Cause again, you might decide you want an alternative light source like glowing fungus or little hanging lanterns filled with fireflies dotted all over the room if you want it all romantic for the couples, and a fairly small fire or an enclosed oven for the kitchen. I usually tend to have my tavern on a different z-level to my kitchen anyway, and usually there's a booze/prepared food stockpile between them, so if I were forced to have a cooking/socialising hearth it wouldn't serve my tavern too well as a light source.

Light, along with oxygen level is not presently modelled in the game.  Pitch darkness is pretty much going to rule out having a recreation room, so basically we have to have a light source.  If that light source is something as oxygen hungry as fire, then we pretty much end up having to make do with the arrangement I described.  Using other sources of light then we do not have the same problem and only have to worry about oxygen.  However this does not change much, since a source of oxygen is pretty much going to be where you put your fires, you still need to congregate everyone around the oxygen source even if it is no longer is the light source. 

They central point was that they cannot congregate in large numbers in poorly ventilated corridors and bedrooms, that stands whether we are dependant upon fire or not. 

The caving in from over-ventilation problem may not be as big of an issue here for 2 reasons: 1) ventilation could lead to the surface or the caverns, spreading out the oxygen sources should reduce structural stress, caverns must have abundant oxygen in order to have such enormous wildlife, and 2) crops, potted plants, and subterranean orchards could take in CO², and give out oxygen, again relieving stress on the system, farms may not need any ventilation at all, and may reduce the need for ventilation for surrounding areas.

The caverns do not work as a source of ventilation.  Caverns might have large creatures living in them (some real caverns have fairly large creatures living in them), but those creatures numbers are in effect controlled by the cavern's own oxygen supply, their existance does not prove the cavern has limitless oxygen like the surface does.  There is not necessarily going to be any surplus of oxygen left over for the dwarves to breathe, indeed the opposite is more likely to be the case, the fortress ventilates the caverns causing the number of cavern wildlife to increase. 

And not to turn this thread into a rehash of the Lighting arc, but even better than glowing fungus, is glowing plants. Phosphorescent trees have been suggested for the caverns, which could be adapted for use as dwarven "streetlights", with small, potted bonsai versions as single-room illumination. Plants would actually generate oxygen, as opposed to ventilation shafts which just share whatever oxygen is outside.

Underground plants can't produce oxygen because there is no light for them to photosynthesise with.  The oxygen in caverns always comes from the surface, either through cavern entrances or through flowing water pouring into the cavern and releasing the oxygen dissolved into it. 

[Ninjabread]

Goblincookie, remember this is a fantasy setting, if Toady decides fungitrees are more tree than fungi, they'll probably produce enough oxygen to be a reliable source, thus making caverns oxygen rich. In terms of realism you're right, there's no reason subterranean flora should be able to produce oxygen, but there's also no reason that one of them should have a constant temperature of the melting point of ice, at least from a realism perspective. Until Toady weighs in on the subject however, this debate is ultimately pointless, either he decides that absolute realism is 100% necessary and fortress ventilation will be a serious and constant concern with only one solution, which can't be overused without the fortress collapsing in on itself, and that the design restrictions forced by that are an acceptable sacrifice for the purpose of making the game more realistic, or he decides that restrictive design takes from the fun and that realism isn't such a rigid concept when you already have dragons and necromancers.

[SixOfSpades]

And not to turn this thread into a rehash of the Lighting arc

Until Toady weighs in on the subject however, this debate is ultimately pointless

While I of course am firmly in agreement that DF should eventually give both light and atmospheric conditions the same level of realistic modeling that it grants to just about everything, this thread is for discussing dwarven social behaviors. In recent updates, Toady has given us taverns, temples, and libraries, therefore we must assume that conditions will never be such as to make their use impossible. Dwarves WILL be able to congregate and socialize, and while they may require additional elements to allow that, the place to discuss and debate those elements is not here.


The flip side to traveling to meet one's friends is making friends with those who live nearby. Perhaps dwarves should make extra efforts to socialize with dwarves whose bedrooms are close to their own? Or, if there is a vacant bedroom (of a value similar to their own) next door to their best friend's room, should they be able to unilaterally move there, taking all their stuff with them?

[scourge728]

I'll be honest, that whole thing about fires and ventilation and building a fort around them that GoblinCookie described really doesn't sound enjoyable, it sounds rather annoying and limiting.... just my thoughts here, also I feel as though lighting might have to wait until more optimization, because I can't imagine adding a bunch of calculations on every tile, and possibly on items, and then needing to add more for creatures to use them, will be very good for FPS, much like how temperature works now

[anewaname]

... More to the point, friends in general should seek out other friends. Are they busy in a workshop? Go and chat with them, it might slow them down a little bit but they'll be grateful for the company. ...

This would be excellent. Dwarfs should chase down friends (and family/pets) for socializing needs at least some of the time.

[Ninjabread]

SixOfSpades, I think it sounds reasonable that dwarves that live near each other should interact more often, whether they'd be neighbourly or have more of a Homer Simpson-Ned Flanders relationship should vary based on personality, maybe even have the possibility of dwarves moving to a different bedroom to get away from unfriendly neighbours, as well as the distant friends moving closer.

scourge728, my thoughts exactly, but let's not stray too far off topic, we've already spent more than enough time and effort on this thread discussing lighting and oxygen.

[Starver]

I'll be honest, that whole thing about fires and ventilation and building a fort around them that GoblinCookie described really doesn't sound enjoyable, it sounds rather annoying and limiting....

I somewhat agree. We already know that (procedural town 'sewers' aside (which are more like a qanat, given that they are tapped into by wellheads) Toady aint too fond of waste-water plumbing (for various reasons). Though his main objection wouldn't apply to 'waste-air plumbing' it doesn't seem like the most important aspect of realism that's yet misaing, and (as far as I'm concerned) I'd be perfectly happy if it never became so.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't appreciate being able to install piping and pump-like mechanisms above an underground butchery that could extract the inevitably stray miasmas out to the outside world, but I already have a solution to that kind of problem, without fiddling with sub-tilesized buildable ducting and having to check the fluid dynamics to ensure I don't inadvertently create a stale patch of phlogiston-rich air at the base of some busy staircase.

(I hadn't waded in on this subsubject, before, so please excuse my one and only diversion in that direction in this thread.)

[GoblinCookie]

Goblincookie, remember this is a fantasy setting, if Toady decides fungitrees are more tree than fungi, they'll probably produce enough oxygen to be a reliable source, thus making caverns oxygen rich. In terms of realism you're right, there's no reason subterranean flora should be able to produce oxygen, but there's also no reason that one of them should have a constant temperature of the melting point of ice, at least from a realism perspective. Until Toady weighs in on the subject however, this debate is ultimately pointless, either he decides that absolute realism is 100% necessary and fortress ventilation will be a serious and constant concern with only one solution, which can't be overused without the fortress collapsing in on itself, and that the design restrictions forced by that are an acceptable sacrifice for the purpose of making the game more realistic, or he decides that restrictive design takes from the fun and that realism isn't such a rigid concept when you already have dragons and necromancers.

That is pretty much the nuclear MAD of arguments you are making there.   

What is the criteria we are using to decide what should be in the game, when we can have anything at all?  This is where it starts to remind me of the Flintstones, we are adding in fantastical content in order to replicate a social order to which we are familiar, as opposed to starting with the alleged setting (the stone age) and then working out what would be the case, we start with the stone age and then add in fantastical elements until everything works in a familiar fashion to RL.

I'll be honest, that whole thing about fires and ventilation and building a fort around them that GoblinCookie described really doesn't sound enjoyable, it sounds rather annoying and limiting.... just my thoughts here, also I feel as though lighting might have to wait until more optimization, because I can't imagine adding a bunch of calculations on every tile, and possibly on items, and then needing to add more for creatures to use them, will be very good for FPS, much like how temperature works now

It is no more annoying and limiting than having to feed your dwarves, or not digging into aquifers.  This is a game which tends towards realism in most matters, I tend to consider the things that should be in there as features to be added in the future, rather than things that are not really in. 

While I of course am firmly in agreement that DF should eventually give both light and atmospheric conditions the same level of realistic modeling that it grants to just about everything, this thread is for discussing dwarven social behaviors. In recent updates, Toady has given us taverns, temples, and libraries, therefore we must assume that conditions will never be such as to make their use impossible. Dwarves WILL be able to congregate and socialize, and while they may require additional elements to allow that, the place to discuss and debate those elements is not here.

The flip side to traveling to meet one's friends is making friends with those who live nearby. Perhaps dwarves should make extra efforts to socialize with dwarves whose bedrooms are close to their own? Or, if there is a vacant bedroom (of a value similar to their own) next door to their best friend's room, should they be able to unilaterally move there, taking all their stuff with them?

It very much is the case that the primary actual issue for dwarf socializing is the supply of light and air.  The problem there was only with dwarves socializing in their rooms, I saw no problem with libraries, temples and taverns.  Presumably those things are well lit and ventilated. 

[Ninjabread]

Goblincookie, that MAD was sorta the point, this isn't the thread for debate about functionality of light or ventilation, I appreciate you looking ahead to distant future compatibility, it is important, but it's quite simply too distant for us to properly debate without input from Toady.

Btw, my points aren't adding fantastical things for familiarity, it's for architectural freedom. If oxygen exclusively comes from the surface, that forces players to build relatively flat, wide fortresses to avoid the inevitable poor ventilation in lower levels, and if caverns drain oxygen, you basically cannot build anything of worth there. That's not even mentioning that the caverns are already fantastical. They do not exist in the real world in any meaningfully similar way, and many things within them make no logical sense, especially if you make them oxygen deprived.

[Splint]

I now have a mental image of the lady and the tramp spaghetti scene, except it's two dwarves and some raw intestines.

Well, then my work here is done. 

Okay, so first off, this is disgustingly hilarious and I love you both for it.

Second off, I just wanted to say that this thread has given me an insight as to why I can't seem to get my useless rubes to make friends/other relations to combat stress from corpse disposal. Seems that might need a bit of tweaking to allow for conversations to take place over a larger area - I know soldiers could make friends with kids following thier militia parents around despite usually standing further away than a tile in 34.11 at the very least if they were in the room while they trained.

Didn't happen often, mind, but it happened enough that I noticed it.

[scourge728]

Btw, my points aren't adding fantastical things for familiarity, it's for architectural freedom. If oxygen exclusively comes from the surface, that forces players to build relatively flat, wide fortresses to avoid the inevitable poor ventilation in lower levels, and if caverns drain oxygen, you basically cannot build anything of worth there. That's not even mentioning that the caverns are already fantastical. They do not exist in the real world in any meaningfully similar way, and many things within them make no logical sense, especially if you make them oxygen deprived.

This

[GoblinCookie]

Goblincookie, that MAD was sorta the point, this isn't the thread for debate about functionality of light or ventilation, I appreciate you looking ahead to distant future compatibility, it is important, but it's quite simply too distant for us to properly debate without input from Toady.

Btw, my points aren't adding fantastical things for familiarity, it's for architectural freedom. If oxygen exclusively comes from the surface, that forces players to build relatively flat, wide fortresses to avoid the inevitable poor ventilation in lower levels, and if caverns drain oxygen, you basically cannot build anything of worth there. That's not even mentioning that the caverns are already fantastical. They do not exist in the real world in any meaningfully similar way, and many things within them make no logical sense, especially if you make them oxygen deprived.

There is no real reason to set up general mechanics so that they can only work if fantastical things are the case.

What architectural freedom?  I was generally of the impression that the game was supposed to be orientated towards realism, hence why things like the materials are so precise.  The reason we have so much architectural freedom at the moment is simply because the mechanics for that part of the game are not very well developed.  I would surmise the demise of the one-hex rule for creatures will require a fundamental overhaul of the architectural principles of the game, so your architectural freedom will take a nose-dive; if only because you will have to think about how much space there is in your hallways and corridors. 

[KittyTac]

Yeah, I agree with GC for the most part, which is a rare phrase to hear from me. Screw architectural freedom, realism is better.

[Ninjabread]

KittyTac, I'd argue that GC's realism applies only to plants, and that cavern critters couldn't maintain the size/fireyness/numbers they do now with such a low oxygen supply. Either you have (relatively) realistic flora and make cavern critters [NOBREATHE] and something to stop fire-composed creatures from just dying, or you could have (relatively) realistic fauna and have oxygen production sans-light, or caverns are going to need a total rework. Fire men in particular would likely be difficult to have in oxygen deprived caverns, given how deep you have to dig for them to appear.

GoblinCookie, firstly, default DF is fantastical. Even after the fantasticality slider is introduced, only the very bottom setting will be truly mundane. Not planning for the fantastical would be mindbogglingly short-sighted. Not to mention, that mechanic we're talking about? Bedroom visits? Works even when nothing fantastical is present, since a medieval subterranean fortress is pretty fantastical, and lighting/ventilating an above ground fortress is way less hassle, even in your scenario.

Secondly, multi-tile/level creatures will change architecture, not restrict it. Needing a wider/taller hallway isn't restricting, it just means you're gonna need a bigger boat. Only way you're gonna find it restricting is if a) if multi-tile/level doors aren't implemented at the same time, or b) if you have extravagantly large fortresses that take up the whole map both vertically and horizontally already. Besides, how often do you actually want big creatures inside your fortress? If they aren't grazers that should be in a pasture, they're usually trying to smash your dwarves into paste.

Finally, and this goes for everyone, this debate belongs in a thread of it's own. The subject of the debate is now completely unrelated to the subject of the thread, any vague relations to the thread have faded into obscurity. If someone wants to make a thread for this and link here that's fine, but this thread is about dwarven social interactions, not lighting and oxygen, or architectural freedom vs botanical realism