Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[KittyTac]

Maybe dwarves are not vitamin-D dependent. They're not humans. And being outside to socialize does not make sense for dwarves.

[Ninjabread]

KittyTac, that part was specifically about surface-dwellers that do need vitamin D, like humans, and possibly also elves and animal people

[KittyTac]

KittyTac, that part was specifically about surface-dwellers that do need vitamin D, like humans, and possibly also elves and animal people

Oh, OK. I misunderstood. There should be a tag for that, yeah.

[SixOfSpades]

Maybe dwarves are not vitamin-D dependent. They're not humans.

It'd be interesting if each of the intelligent races had some strange dependency, without which they suffer withdrawal and reduced efficiency. Dwarves = alcohol, humans = sunlight, elves = tree-hugging and goblins = cruelty? Each could, theoretically, put the person into an emotional state that releases an enzyme/hormone/neurotransmitter/etc., which is beneficial to various bodily functions.

One thing we haven't mentioned yet in this thread is ceremonies, which would get multiple dwarves together in one place, usually performing the same activity, and almost always followed by food, drink, and socializing. Holidays would work well for this purpose, especially religious holidays because they would almost certainly be celebrated only by followers of a particular deity, meaning everyone there has at least that in common.

[Ninjabread]

Racial needs sound interesting, though as previously mentioned, may need extra balancing to get right, if I have a goblin who stops working every week so it can go off and mutilate a puppy I'm just not gonna accept goblin residents. Sounds like it might be tough to rawify them enough to give modders full control over extra needs for their custom races, but just having tags for the vanilla racial needs available could work.

Ceremonies are a nice idea, finally, a reason to actually assign people to work at the temple. It'd be extra cool if it consulted mythgen when deciding religious holiday placement.

[KittyTac]

Racial needs sound interesting, though as previously mentioned, may need extra balancing to get right, if I have a goblin who stops working every week so it can go off and mutilate a puppy I'm just not gonna accept goblin residents. Sounds like it might be tough to rawify them enough to give modders full control over extra needs for their custom races, but just having tags for the vanilla racial needs available could work.

Ceremonies are a nice idea, finally, a reason to actually assign people to work at the temple. It'd be extra cool if it consulted mythgen when deciding religious holiday placement.

What about a "Dummy" creature that can be created at a workshop and could be used by goblins and violent civilized creatures in general to relieve stress and the need for violence by hitting the dummy? It would relieve less of it, but better than nothing.

[GoblinCookie]

Not sure insistence on being outside to socialise works for simulating vitamin D deficiency, since not all humans need to socialise, and IRL we don't need to be outside for a chat, but going for a walk about outside with friends actually sounds like a nice social activity for residents who value nature and aren't cave adapted, though a park/nature reserve zone may be needed to avoid them wandering straight into large predators. I think humans, and maybe other surface-dwellers, could show the need for sunlight with a variant on the code for cave adaption (maybe call it cave sickness?), meaning it'd be a good idea to keep them closer to, or on the surface, though that may need some balancing to avoid confusing new players as their foreign residents all go pale and sickly.

Btw, sorry if I've been a bit snappy in previous posts, the pollen count has been, and still is, super high here, and I tend to get a bit grouchy when I can't breathe.

I did not get the impression you were snappy at all.   

For the antisocial creature that suffers from Vitamin D shortage we can have a separate behavior that would cause them to walk to the surface to spend time in the sun.  Basically the social behavior keeps most humans from getting vitamin D deficiancy, but there is a solo fallback option that will kick in to cause solo walks.  Solo walks however are less than ideal compared to social ones, so they are basically a fallback option. 

Racial needs sound interesting, though as previously mentioned, may need extra balancing to get right, if I have a goblin who stops working every week so it can go off and mutilate a puppy I'm just not gonna accept goblin residents. Sounds like it might be tough to rawify them enough to give modders full control over extra needs for their custom races, but just having tags for the vanilla racial needs available could work.

Ceremonies are a nice idea, finally, a reason to actually assign people to work at the temple. It'd be extra cool if it consulted mythgen when deciding religious holiday placement.

What about a "Dummy" creature that can be created at a workshop and could be used by goblins and violent civilized creatures in general to relieve stress and the need for violence by hitting the dummy? It would relieve less of it, but better than nothing.

That makes them sound like cats needing to scratch things and dogs needing to chew things.  Actually this applies in general to Six of Spades suggestions on the matter, a lot of them while interesting are not really going to be unique to that specific creature.

[SixOfSpades]

If I have a goblin who stops working every week so it can go off and mutilate a puppy I'm just not gonna accept goblin residents.

What about a "Dummy" creature that can be created at a workshop and could be used by goblins and violent civilized creatures in general to relieve stress and the need for violence by hitting the dummy?

People with high Anger_Propensity and related traits might be satisfied by abusing inanimate objects and/or watching bloodsports in the arena, but I personally doubt that would satisfy most goblins, especially if it really is a biological need. But even if goblins really did have to knowingly inflict pain upon the helpless, they could do the jobs of Gelder, Animal Trainer (someone's got to teach the beasts to hate goblins, after all), Ambusher, Trapper, Fishergoblin, etc. They would probably also love the office of Sheriff or Hammerer, and they might someday also torture for information, or serve as the "bad sergeant" for military recruits.
In addition to probably mutilating puppies.

For the antisocial creature that suffers from Vitamin D shortage we can have a separate behavior that would cause them to walk to the surface to spend time in the sun.

As far as Vitamin D itself is concerned, there are plenty of dietary sources, most of which are easily obtained in a dwarf fort: cheese, eggs, fatty fish, & various types of mushrooms. It really shouldn't be a problem. I read humans (and elves) as having more of a psychological need for sunlight (and fresh air): If they go without for too long, they start to get stir-crazy, and if it's made to continue, they can even develop claustrophobia. But we needn't develop a special behavior just to force asocial humans to head topside every now and then, just have any human that feels "hemmed in after not being able to see the sky lately" try to path to an Outside Aboveground tile during their next On Break. You could also assign them aboveground jobs like Woodcutter, Herbalist, etc.

What about a "Dummy" creature that can be created at a workshop and could be used by goblins and violent civilized creatures in general to relieve stress and the need for violence by hitting the dummy? It would relieve less of it, but better than nothing.

That makes them sound like cats needing to scratch things and dogs needing to chew things.  Actually this applies in general to Six of Spades suggestions on the matter, a lot of them while interesting are not really going to be unique to that specific creature.

Well, that depends on whether or not you're talking about things that creatures like to do (a lot of mammals enjoy skin stimulation, like cats being petted or bears rubbing on trees), and things that they actually need to do (dwarves are the only creatures that must drink booze or suffer harsh penalties to speed & coordination).
(Actually, strike that last bit. According to the wiki, "creatures of any race who are exposed to enough combat to become fully hardened will also become alcoholics", although personally I have to disagree with that mechanic, as it does nothing but reinforce a negative stereotype for the sake of a cheap joke. I myself don't know any alcoholic war veterans, but I do feel a bit of offense on their behalf.)
But back to your point, perhaps the animal raws should be augmented with a new tag or two. In addition to [PREFSTRING], there could also be something like [PREFACTIVITY] and/or [DEPENDENCY]. Some will be shared with other creatures, others probably won't be.

[GoblinCookie]

As far as Vitamin D itself is concerned, there are plenty of dietary sources, most of which are easily obtained in a dwarf fort: cheese, eggs, fatty fish, & various types of mushrooms. It really shouldn't be a problem. I read humans (and elves) as having more of a psychological need for sunlight (and fresh air): If they go without for too long, they start to get stir-crazy, and if it's made to continue, they can even develop claustrophobia. But we needn't develop a special behavior just to force asocial humans to head topside every now and then, just have any human that feels "hemmed in after not being able to see the sky lately" try to path to an Outside Aboveground tile during their next On Break. You could also assign them aboveground jobs like Woodcutter, Herbalist, etc.

Don't the dietery sources require sunlight to 'unlock'?  I though that you always got your Vitamin D from a dietary source and then you used sunlight to turn it into a usable form. 

The idea was to use the social behavior in order to cause them to move to the surface in groups, rather than simply doing so individually when they feel the need.

[SixOfSpades]

As far as Vitamin D itself is concerned, there are plenty of dietary sources

Don't the dietery sources require sunlight to 'unlock'?

Not according to Wikipedia.

The idea was to use the social behavior in order to cause them to move to the surface in groups, rather than simply doing so individually when they feel the need.

Yes, I was suggesting the 'cabin fever' behavior as a safety, to catch those humans who happen to be asocial (and/or there just aren't enough other humans in the fort) and thus don't catch the "hey guys, let's go upstairs for a picnic" bandwagon.

Of course, having humans require regular sunlight exposure means renewed attention to more realistic properties of glass, and most likely unavoidable fortress security flaws. If you live in an area with Evil weather (though I don't know if that'll still be a thing after the Sphere-based biome rebalancing), then an enclosed greenhouse is literally the only way to air your humans out . . . assuming, of course, that glass will finally be made transparent to light transmission. And if glass is made transparent (as it should be), then it will most likely be made breakable (as it should be) as well . . . meaning, any flying building destroyer (or just any flier strong & smart enough to drop a rock) can easily create a path into the fort, all because you have human residents.

[KittyTac]

I suggest using two reliable sources to back up your claim, other that Wikipedia. That way GC can't latch onto that.

[SixOfSpades]

Oh, I doubt he'll pretend to be versed in biochemistry, along with everything else. Then again, it might be amusing to see him try. And this thread's already suffered one hard derail, let him spin his wheels and try for two.

[KittyTac]

Oh, I doubt he'll pretend to be versed in biochemistry, along with everything else. Then again, it might be amusing to see him try. And this thread's already suffered one hard derail, let him spin his wheels and try for two.

No. It's just that he'll dismiss Wikipedia because it is "inaccurate" to him.

[GoblinCookie]

Not according to Wikipedia.

The question was not a rhetorical one SixOfSpades.  I never claimed to be omniscient, merely cleverer than most people.   

Yes, I was suggesting the 'cabin fever' behavior as a safety, to catch those humans who happen to be asocial (and/or there just aren't enough other humans in the fort) and thus don't catch the "hey guys, let's go upstairs for a picnic" bandwagon.

Of course, having humans require regular sunlight exposure means renewed attention to more realistic properties of glass, and most likely unavoidable fortress security flaws. If you live in an area with Evil weather (though I don't know if that'll still be a thing after the Sphere-based biome rebalancing), then an enclosed greenhouse is literally the only way to air your humans out . . . assuming, of course, that glass will finally be made transparent to light transmission. And if glass is made transparent (as it should be), then it will most likely be made breakable (as it should be) as well . . . meaning, any flying building destroyer (or just any flier strong & smart enough to drop a rock) can easily create a path into the fort, all because you have human residents.

I think ultraviolet light does not pass through light and hence Vitamin D is still a problem, since I think (again I don't claim to know) that UV light is specifically needed for Vitamin D synthesis. 

Flying building destroyers are going to be less of a problem once we end up with multi-tile creatures.  Provided we make the tunnel between the greenhouse and our fortress small enough, there is a good chance they are just going to wreck your greenhouse.  The glass is fragile problem can also be solved by having a secondary level of drawbridges to seal off the greenhouses fragile glass walls.

Oh, I doubt he'll pretend to be versed in biochemistry, along with everything else. Then again, it might be amusing to see him try. And this thread's already suffered one hard derail, let him spin his wheels and try for two.

Since people love to derail threads when I am around, let's derail the thread into a discussion that is all about ME! 

Oh, I doubt he'll pretend to be versed in biochemistry, along with everything else. Then again, it might be amusing to see him try. And this thread's already suffered one hard derail, let him spin his wheels and try for two.

No. It's just that he'll dismiss Wikipedia because it is "inaccurate" to him.

Wikpedia is something of the idiot's bible.  It is basically a place full of stuff so basic that even the world's plentiful supply of idiots cannot be persuaded that it isn't the case.   

[Cathar]

I never claimed to be omniscient, merely cleverer than most people.   

The reason you are not is precisely because you think you are. You never learn anything out of ego and everytime you stumble upon someone who actually knows their shit you try to deflect with logghorea, trying to control damage with ad nauseam.

Your effect is to pull the level of any discussion down while drowning the useful information shared in a sea of inanities.

I for one have no idea why people keep responding to this kind of post, but then again I just did so who am I to criticize.

Seriously my dude. Drop the computer, read a book. 300 pages ain't that long. 15 hours of sitting with your headphones on while knowledge is litterally dropped into your skull ain't that hard.

Do it.

This will be my only post in this thread. Have fun guys