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Author Topic: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192  (Read 13800 times)

Ghazkull

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2018, 02:25:34 pm »

There was silence in the room. Many looked at each other, surprised at the sudden proclamation from the king. This would not only enrich the nobility incredibly, it would also allow them to completely sidestep the tithes and taxes newly levied by the king. In one stroke the king had not only repaired the damage he caused early, but also empowered and enriched the nobility far beyond anything seen previous.

As one the Camarilla around the Count of Loos approached the king and remonstrated, renewing their oaths of loyalty, claiming misunderstandings to previous issues and generally making a show of their loyalty of the crown which was of course never in question. It was pretty clear that they were all in accord with the kings suggestion.

However one group stood clearly out in disapproving of the idea. The Counts of Yshuis. They knew that their populace could barely feed themselves let alone pay a 25% tithe on their production. They knew they were outnumbered. Still they approached Duke Laranth.

"Lord, you know as well as we do that the people cannot pay such high tithes. We will either have starvation or revolts and in all probability both! Speak to the King, sway his heart!"
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sprinkled chariot

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2018, 03:32:52 pm »


With all respect to your wisdom, my lord.
Would not 25 % be too punishing for free farmers?
Especially farmers working on poor soil of Yshius and alike.  I believe, that losing 25 % of income might cripple their hopes to achieve  anything above basic needs.
While lower tax rate might allow some hardworking farmers to actually enrich and become better tax payers in the future. 




in anotherchamber somewhat later

Sir Laranth, I would greatly appreciate hearing more about said knights. Were they captured by your vassal and did they make any harm to your duchie ?

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chubby2man

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2018, 04:11:31 pm »

“A good point, Grandmaster. The people of Yshius have over things they can offer in place of grain. As to the tax, we need to build up a reserve to provide for the people.”

The king turned to Avaris. “But what does our “Queen of Grain” think? Is a 25% percent tax bearable?”
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 04:13:57 pm by chubby2man »
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micelus

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2018, 03:42:42 am »

Avaris had watched all this in silence.

"...No. And yes. It is true that for many of our populace, a 25% tax is bearable and will enrich the nobility. The freemen in general will be a bit poorer for this, but should this wealth be used in the development of the realm, I think it a worthy trade. However, the Count Yshuis is correct. Your grace, Yyshuis is not a wealthy region and these taxes would do far more harm than good, and would cause problems later on. Unless the other lords would be willing to donate their resources to the development and upkeep of the march, I propose three things."

"Firstly, all border fiefs and poor communities should be exempted from both suggested taxes. The wealth that would enrich the royal coffers would be of better use in ensuring our realm is safe from outside incursion. Secondly, a poor village that is already near the point of starvation will not meekly accept another burden; they would rather risk death and revolt. And indeed, they would receive a fine place in the heavens. They would have little to lose."

"Secondly, it would be fair to assume that there is a great deal of debate at what would count as 'poor' for the purpose of taxation. I propose that a royal service be established to gauge the wealth of the realm and based of this information, tax your subjects accordingly. As such, I also suggest that any new taxes not take into effect until this census is performed."

"On another note, I would also propose a lowering of the tax to 15% or rather, that you firstly announce a 25% tax, and then reissue another a week after that that states a 15% tax rather than 25. Were you to present the 15 firstly, peasants the realm over would be as outraged as if you had proposed 25%. A 'correction' would mollify their anger, especially if you were to announce that this decision was made after consulting with representatives of the common man. Or rather, a common woman."
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Ardas

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2018, 03:54:48 am »

"Lady Avaris makes a prudent suggestion, my King." Alexei chimed in. "Although, the situation as it is, would not be alleviated by a blanket tax on the freemen that would see it as yet another tax that they need to endure, on top of ones they are subject to, but not paying."

"What if the land tax that the freemen ought to be subject to, is paid to their local lord instead, who will be from now on responsible for collection of it, and then they will be able to fund the new levy from that."

Riskov quickly looked into the scrolls before continuing. "I believe that the customary tithe on land is a tenth of the revenues, and as such, local barons should be empowered to collect that from freemen now, without any infringing of their otherwise liberal status. Then they can pass this onto the Crown. As such, the grain tithe could also be adjusted to a tenth as well, streamlining the taxation without increasing anyone's burden, or forcing the crown to expand bureaucracy."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 04:44:35 am by Ardas »
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2018, 04:10:46 am »

Laranth could not help but look briefly aghast at the king's suggestion, though he quickly regained his composure, and sat in silence until he had a chance to talk.

"Alexei offers a sensible compromise. Rather than imposing a new tax, standardise the current mishmash of taxes. A tenth sounds bearable, although the lady Avaris's suggestion that certain regions be exempted would also be wise."
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Ghazkull

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2018, 11:33:32 am »

The Counts seemed less than elated. In their minds they had already been counting the money and now the Duke of Arnmarch of all people was ruining the kings ideas!

Such things were expected from the Duke of Yshuis with his poorer populace but the Duke of Arnmarch was depriving himself...and for what reason?

The Counts clearly expected a 25% tax to go through.
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Ardas

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2018, 12:18:34 pm »

"My lords, the land tax cannot be so steep and so sudden, lest the commons rise against all of us. Trust me when I say that the increase will more than enrich all of us once collection will go up and thus the revenues of all lords."

"My King, I do believe that this is just for both the commoners and for us."

Alexei looked over the assembly again, trusting that his assumptions were correct. He'd much rather argue with others in here than spend next few years killing peasants for no good reason.
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Ghazkull

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2018, 10:54:39 am »

The Counts are divied over the issue. Again a clear northern core emerges which is for the reduced taxes for everyone with the central and royal demesne counts being for the initial 25% tax. However suprisingly the arnmarch counts throw in with their own duke, making it a vote of 6 counts against 6.
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chubby2man

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2018, 02:32:57 pm »

The King looks over the divided group of nobles. “Let is break for the day, and enjoy Lord Riskov’s fair city. We shall feast and drink as we discuss how to better our kingdom as comrades and friends. We shall meet again tomorrow to vote on the proposal.

Bring the first meeting of the Diet to a close, Tristan goes to his quarters afterwards to rest and prepare for the feast. He also asks his Spymasrer what she has learned so far during the Diet.
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Ardas

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2018, 02:37:24 am »

"As his Majesty commands, the assembly shallbreak up and reconvene tomorrow. May Gods bless us all."

Alexei loses no time in mingling with the nobles of the opposition, to ensure that he has sufficient points to refute. Chancellor's work was never done.

Talk with the nobles of the opposition. Get servants to prepare the feast.

Later, during the recess...

"My Duke Laranth, a word if I may?"

"What is it, Alexei?"

"The taxation, what else? Your lords seem to be in line with the needs of the land, but we are at an impasse, something that the king could have resolved but he didn't. Why?"

"The inexperience of youth, I suspect. A few years of running the kingdom will teach him how to deal with such issues. Such are the consequences of his father's untimely demise, that none thought to seriously educate his son in the intricacies of rulership, thinking there were many years before he would take the throne."

"Well, the gods have blessed him with good advisers, if I may say so. The issue is clear however, it will be our voice that will make the difference. I suspect he is afraid of dividing the realm so early on, but can we allow different rules for one part of the realm and different for another?"

"That holds true for some things, but not for matters such as taxation. The people of Yshuis cannot pay as much as the people of Gynfer; this is a fact. Your latest suggestion will not be crippling to my duchy, but will still render some in need of assistance, whilst Kerion's people will barely register it."

"How do you propose we balance it out then? I can manage a tax exemption in the accounts once a season passes and no one has to know about those except lords involved - your revenues would be measly anyway. Gynfer will have to be promised some kind of other reward for long term"

"It is not a simple matter. If exemptions are offered to one party, everyone will clamour for them. If the tax is raised for one, others may fear it could happen to them and protest. I believe it may be best to stick to your latest proposal, with minimal modifications, and let people get used to it for a few years before making further changes."
"Yshuis will manage, somehow. We always do."


"Tis' only until the Wold can be taken, friend. We will see it through together."

"If the Wold can be taken. I am not sure it will be a simple matter, although I agree it is worth trying."

"Well, the process is in motion, although we have to make sure that a right queen is chosen. She will be the second pillar of our crown"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:36:23 am by Ardas »
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Kansa

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #146 on: July 06, 2018, 06:14:31 pm »

Lacie approached the king, giving a deep bow upon meeting.
"Your majesty, here's what I managed to learn from the meeting with Gudrun and my reports from my other operatives."

"I will start with the less suitable candidates. Aerys den Wolds' daughter, is not well. From her past trauma she's reclusive and can barely speak in social situations. She would be alright as a partner but if you want someone your people and others can look up to, I wouldn't pick her. I doubt she would be able to make many public appearances and even if she did she wouldn't be able to talk doing so."

"Margrit has driven her land to famine with her excess. I've heard she holds orgies and great feasts to the detriment of her people. If we ever face similar issues because of war or a bad harvest I think the people of this kingdom would not be on your side for long."

"The agents I sent to Raimund could not find either him or his daughter. They were both and Margrit's orgies and I've heard she makes a habit of going there."

"The best two candidates in my opinion would either be Koyl's daughter or Gudrun herself. Koyl at this moment holds many territories but is wedged between the ladies Olinde and Mila. They hold the heartland of the wold but much of it is just empty wasteland now. Margaret his daughter however seems a perfect choice, she's beautiful, a duelist and well educated. The problem is is that I can't find anything bad about her, not a single thing. Everyone finds trouble at some point in their life and my agents are experts at discovering it, for them to find nothing she is either perfect which is highly unlikely. Or it's something that Koyl doesn't want anyone to know about and if it's wiped away entirely it is likely something big."

"Gudrun is my pick of the choices so far. She's very experienced as both a leader in battle and an administrator. Through her management she has managed to avoid famine completely in her part of the kingdom, which is a great achievement. She has a large force of soldiers and they are some of the finest I have seen and I believe that every single one would die for her without question, if they joined us it would increase our military strength dramatically. Talking to however she has three conditions for becoming entwined with us, the first one is that we help feed the people of the Wold. This should be simple enough as if we wish to hold it we would need to feed them anyway."

"The second I think you will care about more, she want the succession law changed so woman can also inherit and that all the daughters born would be of her house while all the sons would be of your house. Personally, I do not think this a high cost the most important thing is that your bloodline continues rather than who's name they bare. The third condition is that she decides the fates to all the claimants of the Woldthrone. This is all the information I have gathered."
 
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Ghazkull

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2018, 06:09:54 am »

As the second Day of the Diet approaches, interesting news arrive: delegations from Lord Koyl, Lady Gudrun, Lady Aeris, Lord Raimund and Lady Margrit arrive. Apparently they are here to negotiate the marriage and hear your decision on your choice of bride, by now the rumours have spread far and wide that the King of Argas decided to marry. Curiously also a delegation from the Mountain Tribes has arrived.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:30:18 am by Ghazkull »
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Ardas

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2018, 12:54:29 pm »

Summary of a long discord discussion that ought to be IC

As Lacie delivered the summary of the situation to the king, she found him in the company of Duke Laranth - he seemed to be king's closest confidante, and the three of them discussed possible options - Margaret appeared as the more pleasing choice, not to mention the possibility of ruling directly over most of the Wold.
However, Gudrun was not to be slighted, Duke Laranth observed, and it was likely that the marriage would have to be done with the Red Argr as opposed to Koyl's daughter.

It was then when Duke of Risfurt approached them, having quietly listened to Lacie's report before joining the conversation. His proposition was of a far more complicated nature. Alexei was never one for open words when it came to sensitive matters, but the plan of marrying both in order to obtain most power, with all that implied troubled the young king greatly - playing both against each other and marrying Gudrun first and  Margaret after once Gudrun was dealt with was a complicated gambit. Lacie seemed unconvinced and argued with the duke over viability of this option which seemed very underhanded and risky to most of the gathered nobles, not to mention hard to pull off, as Gudrun would not be betrayed so easily.

Duke Riskov insisted on the plan however, but further discussion was cut short by the arrival of delegations and visitors.
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chubby2man

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Re: Last Argument of Kings IC-Thread Year 1192
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2018, 08:04:26 pm »

The King had courtiers greet the delegations from the warlords, to judge their offers and intentions. The courtiers would bring the information back to the King, and he would be able to decide further based on that. If any of the warlords came personally, they will be immediately brought to the King.

King Tristan turned to the Duke of Risfurt, "Now, I will not even hear a whisper of a second marriage to anyone. If word of talk like that got out, it could jeopardize any alliance we made! There cannot be even a hint of such treachery in our dealings." The King hissed. He rubbed the bridge of his nose.

"I cannot fault your loyalty, my good Duke. In fact, I was curious if you would be willing to also marry into one of the noble families of the Wold, if the need arose. Either you or the Duke Laranth would make very tempting matches."
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