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[mightymushroom]

I'll help you out with that, hector.

MoonyTheHuman

'cause 2 votes are more pressure than one, right?

Same goes to you Tric, you've mostly just been demanding other people talk without giving us much of anything. So you don't have much of a point against me.

Well i have plenty from you. Thanks for all the posts 
Anyone have any idea why TricMagic is so fixated on me? Lurkers are lurkers, and i'm not the only one, but they are FIXED on trying to make me post more, when plenty of people have posted less than me.

Something changed between these two posts. In one Tric hasn't shared enough and by the next they've shared too much. What did you find?

I'm genuinely curious, don't assume that we all pick up on the same clues. I totally thought Tric's original miller claim was one of several jokes until they started repeating it. Gun vending claim, too, for that matter. Sometimes I need things pointed out to me.



PPE: That is reduced wall-iness?!?
At a certain point it's got to be better to just use links for reference to the original. Edit the quotes down to just the phrases you want to point out.

I think I'll just wait to post this until I see Part 3 pop up, less likely to get lost.

PPE2: Of course, if you did more drastic editing you would lose (even more of) the sense of fidelity.
Which is kinda why I don't like this, you admit to editing bits anyhow so it's no substitute for proper reading of the thread.

Been a while, guess I'll post anyway. I don't know how much longer it will take. Nope, it's there just when I was ready to give up.

* mightymushroom: If BHK falls Mafia, he's town or a brilliant actor. Town-read right now.

I'm curious what you would think of me if BHK falls as stubborn but Town nevertheless.

[TricMagic]

Sorry for the wall, but I did it so people can draw their conclusion.

Moony. You did overextend there. I tend to wait for that moment, to the point I place my own life on the line. And BHK hasn't posted in quite a while. If this isn't enough, nothing will be.

Lastly, Starver, Warlock, if you would please step up and post as well, we can get this day finished.

nin'd

For the record, I just meant that I did not quote everything. This is just the important stuff, like the Read List comparisons.

Also, this is cutting off part of a quote.



As for what changed.. I just think it was an excuse to Vote for me, that's all. I kinda handed it to him.


Also, 3 is more than two. and 5 one off from 6..
Vote: MoonyTheHuman

I'm at 4 votes now though, so there's that.

[TricMagic]

Heh... It seems he voted after time was extended 48 hours. So that's it.

[juicebox]

Wait, what exactly is a policy lynch? From what I can see BHK is trying to explain why millers have to be lynched, which makes it sound like sometimes policies exist for a reason. So why is a policy lynch bad in this case?

The only thing I can think of is that Mafia wouldn't claim first post, but that can't be certain. Mafiascum recommends that millers claim day 1 and resign themselves to being shot by a vig. I guess that's because (as someone mentioned) nightkills just get someone out of the way while lynching gives information so you should go to the next most scummy person.

Basically a policy lynch is lynching someone not necessarily because you think they're scum but because they're doing something that's bad for town. For example, lynching someone just because they're lurking is a policy lynch.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Policy_Lynch
Here's the mafiascum definition in case you need more clarification

[blueturtle1134]

Wait, what exactly is a policy lynch? From what I can see BHK is trying to explain why millers have to be lynched, which makes it sound like sometimes policies exist for a reason. So why is a policy lynch bad in this case?

The only thing I can think of is that Mafia wouldn't claim first post, but that can't be certain. Mafiascum recommends that millers claim day 1 and resign themselves to being shot by a vig. I guess that's because (as someone mentioned) nightkills just get someone out of the way while lynching gives information so you should go to the next most scummy person.

Basically a policy lynch is lynching someone not necessarily because you think they're scum but because they're doing something that's bad for town. For example, lynching someone just because they're lurking is a policy lynch.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Policy_Lynch
Here's the mafiascum definition in case you need more clarification

oooooh.

It's lynching someone and going "well even if he's town it doesn't hurt for him to die"


Isn't that somewhat justified, though? Like in this case, if we don't lynch the Miller we're dealing with an unknown person. If the danger of leaving a mafia alive is higher than the risk of a ML, then...

[TricMagic]

Oh, I am resigned to die, but if a vig exists this game, he can kill me, cause mafia sure isn't going to.

[mightymushroom]

Most Policies do exist for a reason; a Miller can be construed as a threat to the Town due to falseclaiming.
If there were no policy, we'd have at least one every game. In fact I believe Tric says he claimed in part so that actual mafia couldn't.
Not that "I said it first" is the best convincer . . . .

I don't see it as a problem of the policy being bad so much as the way in which BHK wields it "full of sound and fury / Signifying nothing."
It's one thing to scumhunt all day and come back to the policy because it's a reasonable thing to do.
It's rather suspicious to let the policy be an excuse for inactivity; a fault only exacerbated by voting for an extension while being inactive.

And Tric,
I think you mischaracterized BHK's defense of the policy there. It's not because of a "wasted" investigation. Only someone truly desperate for leads would try investigating a miller's alignment.

The dilemma is that accepting a scum!Miller as reliably Town can mislead the Town regarding how many votes they have on their side so that they come to LyLo/MyLo insufficiently prepared. Only after reminding us of this does BHK cite the problem that cop investigation can't bring truth to light in this case.

The counterpoint to this is that Town can rarely afford to wait out D1 trusting the cop to clear up everything anyway, certainly not in a blind setup. I think it reasonably probable there is a Cop in a game advertised both Mostly Vanilla and newbie-friendly, but I don't want to wait. It really bothers me that BHK does.


So, blueturtle, that is indeed the judgment we are faced with. What are the risks of leaving Tric who, by claim, cannot be wholly trusted, versus the risk of leaving [your favorite target here] who acts more scummy? (If you think Tric is scummy anyway there's never a question. But BHK wouldn't even attempt to say so.)

Ninja: and if there isn't a vig we face the same dilemma over and over. A sufficiently good actor could slip through if we fail to enact the policy.

[Starver]

Lastly, Starver, Warlock, if you would please step up and post as well, we can get this day finished.

I'm here, I'm reading, but you've given me an awful lot to re-read.

I appreciate the participation, no complaints, but now I.also appreciate the weekend-plus-extension time. I'm going to be using the leeway in spurts between now and the latest extended day end. And piping up, I hope, but I hope no walls from me.


(BTW, I don't have a problem with you rebellious colonials deciding to wandering off and marking the moment we got rid of you, though I should be as accessible as ever during that period. But there's some travelling I may be be doing over the following weekend (6th to 8th, current plans) in part through the Scottish highlands where I may be out of any decent signal for hours at a time. And battery lifetime is something I will have to worry about even when I'm not. I'll try to plan this properly, but I'm subject to other people's schedules, fair warning. And if they think the weather is wrong (wind, heat, whatever happens then) the whole thing could be pushed back a day, maybe better for this, maybe worse.)

[MoonyTheHuman]

Alrighty. I'll go assemble something for everyone who wants it. Just need a up-to-date votecount to get going. Was hoping for the final votecount tho

Votecount please

[hector13]

On policy lynches:

Basically a policy lynch is a lynch based on arbitrary criteria as opposed to the content someone has (or hasn’t) generated in the game. Two common policy lynches are “lynch all liars”, based on the fallacy that a town-aligned player will never lie, and “lynch all lurkers” on the fallacy that only scum will not want to contribute to a game. - green text ends since I’m referring to this game from here now, and thus don’t think it’d be very fair to portray this as unbiased advice

Our issue here is that a Miller is, by definition, town-aligned, and Tric played it right by immediately claiming it in is first post so any investigators (which are likely, given we have a Miller which can throw them off) don’t waste a night on investigating him.

As far as I’m aware, BHK cut his teeth on a site which emphasized the night game, so is more inclined toward analyzing that than the day game. Consequently, a devalued investigator hurts his ability to do that, so a Miller policy lynch makes sense from him. He also kind of has a point that scum might try to fakeclaim it, and that’s not something we want to encourage in the long-term meta.

On the other side of the coin, we can clear Tric in other ways in the night game, or even just the day game. However, his day game play so far has been a bit iffy, tunneling on Moony and BHK, and those wall posts don’t really say anything that hasn’t already been said (though I will admit to skimming them ‘cause wowwalloftext) and the night game clearing requires particular roles, actions and full-claims, which is not at all ideal at this point in the game, but even then could be de-railed by clever scum. Swings and roundabouts, I guess.

Anyhow, I’m more inclined to view BHK’s performance so far with distaste given the majority has been “this is optimal play, anyone not doing it is not town” and not using the time he has to find scum. Optimal play only really works when there are no outliers. Good luck with that in an unknown setup in which everyone has a power role.

[BlackHeartKabal]

Requesting replacement. Less time than I thought, with summer winding down. Apologies.

[TricMagic]

Current-
VOTECOUNT:
*[0] hector13:
*[0] Starver:
*[0] blueturtle1134:
[4] TricMagic: juicebox, BlackHeartKabal, hector13, Maximum Spin, Moony
*[0] IcyTea31:
*[2] BlackHeartKabal: blueturtle1134, TricMagic, IcyTea31
*[0] juicebox:
*[3] MoonyTheHuman: hector13, mightymushroom, TricMagic
*[0] mightymushroom:
*[0] darkwarlock3: mightymushroom
*[0] Maximum Spin:


I posted it one page ago moony. The only thing that's changed is 3 people deciding to vote you.

And yes, I am quite aware this is a quote box, just click the link to see the old one.

[blueturtle1134]

<evaluates Moony> Tric's right. He's contributed nothing. The posts he's given are just saying he'll put off a move, talking about the forum format, demanding a votecount. And the only person that's more lurky than Moony is Darkwarlock, and we have some data on him now.

And unlike Dark and BlackHeart Moony's actually tried to shake the impression of lurking and passive-aggresivley says that "he has what he needs" so I'm going to go with Vote Lynch MoonyTheHuman.

[TricMagic]

Kind wondering if meta should be a thing.

Regardless, it has been 4 hours, if Moony doesn't have 1 in another 4..

[Maximum Spin]

Eh, whatever, MoonyTheHuman, I can work with that. Still provides good data, with a lower estimated mislynch chance.