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[Maximum Spin]

Now hold on. My role doesn't say anything about millerism, so either you're lying (possible, but I'm not assuming anything yet) or there's another frame around besides what's-his-face's frame gadget thing from d1. As it happens, I already suspected that there was framing going on, because of the fact that he had one in conjunction with the fact that I can confirm as of n1 that there are multiple copies of archetypes; darkwarlock3 isn't the only doctor.

Further consideration: lynching RGU to confirm he's a cop wouldn't prove anything about me if he is, since it doesn't rule out framing. Lynching me would, I admit, demonstrate that I'm town, but I would prefer not to, and, besides, proving a dead town doesn't help town at all, and doesn't give any clarity to whether RGU was lying or I was framed. Sooooo, given that I know I'm town, I would either very weakly suggest lynching RGU (at best, he's mafia and I'm proven innocent; at worst we demonstrate the existence of framing, but lose a cop, and probably get the lynch trained on me because I suspect people aren't going to believe the framing angle, which might actually put us in LYLO or lose us the game, so I'm thinking the risks outweigh the benefits here), or, better, wait to collect more information.

Of course, RGU has now claimed to be a cop, which means, if true, he's an obvious choice for nightkill. I've also strongly implied and now am outright admitting to being a doctor, which makes me an obvious choice for nightkill too. So I'll make you a deal, RGU: Don't vote for me just yet, and I will protect you tonight; if you do get killed, my claim would obviously be disproven and I'd get lynched, which is an outcome you were willing to accept anyway. On the other hand, if you don't, you can collect more information for at least one more turn. And I might get killed instead. But, well, live and learn. Or don't, as the case may be. So, uh, are you willing to gamble on this with me?

[TricMagic]

Bed for tonight. Hopefully my action will resolve by morning.

[Maximum Spin]

Incidentally, it seems like a good time for a greentext lesson: Try to keep a cool head when things like this happens, there's no sense going off like a juiced rat and screaming persecution.

[blueturtle1134]

darkwarlock3 was killed last night! A bullet is lodged in his broken heart!

darkwarlock3 was Romantic Doctor: Town
(Night): Protect [target]: You protect your target from all kills tonight.
(1-Shot, Day): Romance [target]: You fall in love with your target. When they die, Grief triggers. If you do not use this ability by the end of Day 2, Grief automatically triggers.
(Auto): Grief: When this ability is triggered by Romance, you die.

Day 2 shall begin... now.

So... we're revealing roles upon nightkill? He's a doctor, and he can protect people, but he has to pick one person during the day to tie his fate with, and he has to pick by the end of day 2?

This is day 2, and nobody else dies, which means that Dark was shot directly, I think.

I really have to wonder how that happened... Wait, no I don't.


Mafia tried to kill someone, BlackWarlock protected them. Someone shot Blackwarlock during the night.

...so why does TricMagic assume that DarkWarlock was also successful in blocking someone? Isn't "thanking doctor" a scumtell? probably talking about the SK's kill

Well I meant “who” as in what alignment, rather than “which player”.

Why quote Starver? Implication: you think it’s him without outright stating it, allowing you to not have absolute statements tied to you. I’m not one to enjoy subtlety. If you don’t know, say so; we have little time to be chasing ghosts.


On that note:

We have found one third-party, what do y’all think are the chances of there being more?

Found one third-party? Mafia-ally is still Mafia from an alignment standpoint.

High.

Also, I am Honest... I have also had my result delayed. Lot of Time-bending in this game.
Ninja'd

And... more of the stuff about capital-H Honest. At this point, though, it's starting to look more like just pathological use of references. Must have really liked that previous game.

Actually, it's commonly a cop modifier. I had already claimed to have an Odd Night modifier to my role and I say lucky because it was actually lucky to find mafia the first night. Why do you say confirming townie would be better? We have to find and lynch the mafia to win. Confirmed townies can just be nightkilled by the scum.

I also have an odd/even night modifier, so I collaborate this. Take into account cop sanities though. Those are an even more common modifier, and one that isn't shown, and the previous two deaths show that the GM is usually docking on more than 1 modification from vanilla.

Now hold on. My role doesn't say anything about millerism, so either you're lying (possible, but I'm not assuming anything yet) or there's another frame around besides what's-his-face's frame gadget thing from d1. As it happens, I already suspected that there was framing going on, because of the fact that he had one in conjunction with the fact that I can confirm as of n1 that there are multiple copies of archetypes; darkwarlock3 isn't the only doctor.

Further consideration: lynching RGU to confirm he's a cop wouldn't prove anything about me if he is, since it doesn't rule out framing. Lynching me would, I admit, demonstrate that I'm town, but I would prefer not to, and, besides, proving a dead town doesn't help town at all, and doesn't give any clarity to whether RGU was lying or I was framed. Sooooo, given that I know I'm town, I would either very weakly suggest lynching RGU (at best, he's mafia and I'm proven innocent; at worst we demonstrate the existence of framing, but lose a cop, and probably get the lynch trained on me because I suspect people aren't going to believe the framing angle, which might actually put us in LYLO or lose us the game, so I'm thinking the risks outweigh the benefits here), or, better, wait to collect more information.

Of course, RGU has now claimed to be a cop, which means, if true, he's an obvious choice for nightkill. I've also strongly implied and now am outright admitting to being a doctor, which makes me an obvious choice for nightkill too. So I'll make you a deal, RGU: Don't vote for me just yet, and I will protect you tonight; if you do get killed, my claim would obviously be disproven and I'd get lynched, which is an outcome you were willing to accept anyway. On the other hand, if you don't, you can collect more information for at least one more turn. And I might get killed instead. But, well, live and learn. Or don't, as the case may be. So, uh, are you willing to gamble on this with me?

Let's examine the cases possible, and observe which fits the results the best.

Spin is a town, he was framed via night action: Spin is an obvious target for framing, as he's been pretty strongly playing town; getting us to distrust him would be a good first step for Mafia. However, claiming doctor seems like a bad decision... it'll just draw the nightkill.
Spin is town, Random is scum, and Spin is being framed the old-fashioned way: I feel like Mafia would have had a hard time coming up with a conceivable role. I also feel that trying to frame Spin would not be the best choice as he seems to be a strong Town player; they'd probably go for more low-hanging fruit like BHK or Tric. The bit of fluff about being "aligned with the dark cosmos" is also convincing but could have been made up.
Spin is scum: Proposes the possibility of framing and claims doctor, two tried-and-true scum tactics to escape the rope. I doubt that framing would actually be duplicated; doctor is a common role which could have two spins on it but framing? Dark wasn't even a framer, he was technically an inventor (but basically a framer) if anything I'd expect more inventors inventing different things. Also the scumteam is smaller so if you duplicate roles they don't have many unique roles. Promising to protect RGU doesn't help either; if he's scum he can just direct the scumkill off RGU. Of course, he can't direct it onto himself; I doubt Scum can kill themselves and it would reveal his alignment anyway. His proposal doesn't really go anywhere if he's scum.
Spin is SK: Inconceivable. Why would he detect as Mafia? If he isn't mafia, why would Random lie? If Random just got "anti-town" and not "mafia" why would he lie about the Dark Cosmos and all that? There's no way this situation gives the observed results.
Spin and Random are both Mafia: No matter which one we lynch, we'll think the other is town. The other will also be in a position to lead the vote from now on; Spin as a town leader, Random as a cop. Spin, however, is explicitly telling us not to lynch either, which is not bussing in the usual sense of the word.
I'm scum: If I were scum, I'd be trying to subtly bias this analysis in one direction or the other. If Spin were scum, I would pay less attention to the scum cases, and if he were town I would introduce weaker town arguments. As it is, I gotta think about this a bit.

Incidentally, it seems like a good time for a greentext lesson: Try to keep a cool head when things like this happens, there's no sense going off like a juiced rat and screaming persecution.

Nice of you to point that out when it would save your own hide.

[randomgenericusername]

So you're saying that someone jusy happened to frame you the same night? Of course, that's what a scum would say.

We could lynch you, if you flip town town can lyng me. Otherwise, town can lynch me and when I flip town we lynch you. Currently, I see there's more evidence against you than against me, so I would rather go with the option of lynching you first.

Maybe claiming like this actually increases my chances of surviving, just to make town suspicious of me. I'm willing to die for town just so they have a confirmed scum, but you don't seem willing to die from the wording of your post. Mafia, having less numbers and the task of surviving, would want to continue in the game and avoid dying.

This day, both of us are good lynches. I would rather see one of us die than wasting the day with something like abstaining. Maybe if someone else had a invetigation result that would confirm someone as scum. With the information I have, you are scum. Since you are scum, I probably shouldn't believe or trust anything you say.

[hector13]

Ugh, too early in the day for this nonsense.

Moony he Mafia-Ally’s singular vote on D1 was on Tric, so I guess he gets the benefit of he doubt for the time being.

BHK was super strong on the Miller claim, specifically around the idea of it messing with investigation result, lending credence to RGU’s claim (in my opinion)

Anyhow, copy-paste from the end of day thing on D1:

MoonyTheHuman was Anti-Investigation Inventor: Mafia-Ally
(Night): Invent [target]: You create a 1-shot ability from this list and grant it to your target.
-(Gadget, Night): Disguise-inator: The night you use this ability, you alignment inspect as town.
-(Gadget, Night): Falsevidence-inator [target]: The night you use this ability, your target alignment inspects as mafia.
-(Gadget, Add-On): Stealth-inator: The night you use this ability, you cannot be seen by Tracker/Watcher style abilities.

It would seem somewhat ridiculous for a mafia ally to have a framing action (the Falsevidence-inator action) and also for the mafia to have one too, particularly in light of the Invent action, which is designed to give the actual mafia some pleasant abilities.

PPE: blueturtle post skimmed, I guess we have some questions for FoU:

FoU, ya bam!

Is a mafia-ally counted as a third-party?

I suggested avoiding cop sanity shenanigans when I said I was gonna join, are you willing to confirm if there are sanity shenanigans in effect?

PPE2: RGU read, has a point.

[FallacyofUrist]

The cat speaks!

1. Mafia-allies are third party.

2. It is possible for investigation results to be messed with in various ways, as Moony's role demonstrates thoroughly.
3. But role modifiers that cause their user to get false results? Stuff like Naive, Paranoid, Insane, and the like are not included. The same goes for any modifier that would be hidden from the person who has that modifier.

[hector13]

darkwarlock would die if the person he was in love with died, I don’t think his death would have any influence on the person he was in love with, if indeed he was in love with anyone.

Also not sure why a nightkill roleflip is notable, but I have limited experience outside B12 (I’ve played all of one game off-site) and it’a normal ‘round here.

Willing to accept a blueturtle/MaxSpin scumteam. Probably someone else in there, though also maybe another third-party. Unsure. Hm.

[Maximum Spin]

Spin is a town, he was framed via night action: Spin is an obvious target for framing, as he's been pretty strongly playing town; getting us to distrust him would be a good first step for Mafia. However, claiming doctor seems like a bad decision... it'll just draw the nightkill.

Yeaaaaah, I considered that a lot, believe me; and where I used to play mafia, doctor was self-targetable, so claiming it was pretty much downside-free (and I had a strong strategy with it to the point that I actively hoped to get doctor specifically), which might have led me to be more open to claiming doctor than is necessarily wise; and on top of that I think I might be a lot more free with claiming in general than the norm around here? My instinct is pretty much to spill at least the basic details if poked. I guess I'm just... hoping not to get nightkilled. In part, hoping that scum would value keeping the ambiguity of whether I might be scum open higher than killing a doctor who has already precommitted to protecting a specific person. In any case, you can test it if we have a willing vigilante: I can't see a situation in which a different doctor would be willing to fake the result to protect me, so if I do indeed successfully protect RGU tonight, it proves that I am a doctor. Whereas if RGU were to die, you'd have one known scum, which is as much as you could expect.

Uh, unless there's more than one attempt to kill RGU, because I think I can only protect against a max of one? I'm not sure whether the protection against the first kill would even be mentioned in that case, which would give a false negative... and also, I guess, that means that, if a vig kills him to test, the mafia get a free shot at it too... shit, that makes it kind of a bad plan. Hold on a sec, let me think about this.

Also, new posts, I don't like reading under the edit box, I'm just going to post this and then address those subsequently.

[blueturtle1134]

Spin is a town, he was framed via night action: Spin is an obvious target for framing, as he's been pretty strongly playing town; getting us to distrust him would be a good first step for Mafia. However, claiming doctor seems like a bad decision... it'll just draw the nightkill.

Yeaaaaah, I considered that a lot, believe me; and where I used to play mafia, doctor was self-targetable, so claiming it was pretty much downside-free (and I had a strong strategy with it to the point that I actively hoped to get doctor specifically), which might have led me to be more open to claiming doctor than is necessarily wise; and on top of that I think I might be a lot more free with claiming in general than the norm around here? My instinct is pretty much to spill at least the basic details if poked. I guess I'm just... hoping not to get nightkilled. In part, hoping that scum would value keeping the ambiguity of whether I might be scum open higher than killing a doctor who has already precommitted to protecting a specific person. In any case, you can test it if we have a willing vigilante: I can't see a situation in which a different doctor would be willing to fake the result to protect me, so if I do indeed successfully protect RGU tonight, it proves that I am a doctor. Whereas if RGU were to die, you'd have one known scum, which is as much as you could expect.

Uh, unless there's more than one attempt to kill RGU, because I think I can only protect against a max of one? I'm not sure whether the protection against the first kill would even be mentioned in that case, which would give a false negative... and also, I guess, that means that, if a vig kills him to test, the mafia get a free shot at it too... shit, that makes it kind of a bad plan. Hold on a sec, let me think about this.

Also, new posts, I don't like reading under the edit box, I'm just going to post this and then address those subsequently.

Again, case by case analysis:

Spin's town: He's claiming that he has an inherent bias towards doctor claims...? Can anyone that knows him collaborate this? And Mafia would totally want to kill you even if you're committed. Kill you this night, kill Random the next; doctor and cop, done with. You're using broken logic and emotional reasoning to support your actions, which isn't really towny.
Spin's scum: Now that you've given reasons why the scum may not target you? This is more plausible. You tell your scumfriends not to shoot either you or Random, and you say "Guess I was right, haha." If Random's your scumpartner, you together proceed to trick town into whoever you want. If Random's town, you just hit him first.

So now it's even...

[Maximum Spin]

So you're saying that someone jusy happened to frame you the same night? Of course, that's what a scum would say.

Well, I don't see any other explanation? I mean, I know you have an alternate theory, but I have information to which you are not privy, viz., my actual alignment. it might seem like a coincidence to you, but to me, it's just the natural deduction.

We could lynch you, if you flip town town can lyng me. Otherwise, town can lynch me and when I flip town we lynch you. Currently, I see there's more evidence against you than against me, so I would rather go with the option of lynching you first.

there's not really any evidence against either of us, just word vs. word, and of course you would prefer that, and also, your aggressiveness is kind of making me rethink my previous position of assuming good faith here

I'm willing to die for town just so they have a confirmed scum, but you don't seem willing to die from the wording of your post. Mafia, having less numbers and the task of surviving, would want to continue in the game and avoid dying.

But dying wouldn't, as I pointed out, prove anything. And my dying would prove even less. And yes, I would prefer to keep playing, because that was the point of joining the game. As a general rule, I always want to avoid dying, because, um, duh? Every town member who dies, especially from getting lynched, is one step closer to the mafia winning. And if I were you, and town, I wouldn't want to die just because I think I have found one scum member, either. That's really irresponsible play, honestly. I'm not convinced it's scummy, but it might be?

This day, both of us are good lynches. I would rather see one of us die than wasting the day with something like abstaining. Maybe if someone else had a invetigation result that would confirm someone as scum. With the information I have, you are scum. Since you are scum, I probably shouldn't believe or trust anything you say.

I don't think either of us are good lynches, and the fact that you claim we are, and are clearly pushing really hard for it to be me and not you, is really suspicious to me. And besides, if someone else had an investigation result, that wouldn't confirm anything either; we could assume (which seems probable) that at most one of the people 'confirmed' is framed, unless there is an excess of framing (which can't be ruled out), but that doesn't tell us much about which. This is like... the whole point of daygame, you know? It sounds like you're working on a kind of follow-the-cop stratagem but that's not really functional in a game like this. I just want to not bandwagon (and, yes, not be bandwagoned, because it is boring and sucks and I'll have to find something else to do) on day 2 when there is still a possibility of acting on this information later and still more useful information to be gathered now.

And honestly, this whole thing about being tunnelled really in tight to your result being true instead of considering other possibilities feels more like a fakeclaim you didn't expect to get pushback on, rather than the alternative. Although even that would be a really stupid play, because why burn yourself so tho... -roughly (for killing off one probably unimportant town player) is what I was going to say until I realised that I'm giving you plausible deniability here. Fuck. It's going to be "Oh shit, I guess he was really framed, well, what are the chances that can happen twice, huh?", isn't it? And if you actually do have a frame you could even back it up, although as hector points out it might not be likely (although a frame as an adjunct to another role or with heavy restrictions or maybe part of a joat kind of thing? wouldn't surprise me).

Oh, and I forgot about redirects. Even if I assume you are town, how do any of us know your investigation was really of me and you don't just think it was? But this is all besides the --

intermission: I have this habit of hitting 'preview' pretty often as I type, which is why I know there are now MORE POSTS for me to catch up on and respond to, THANKS BLUETURTLE

-- uh, right, besides the point because I'm already suspecting RGU of faking it outright now. Although, Hec: I feel like the fact that the mafia-ally's "gadgets" are all one-shots, and there's no guarantee that the mafia-ally even finds mafia successfully to use it on, makes the possibility that there are similar abilities with different restrictions floating around much more likely. Like, I don't know, maybe a frame-redirect combo where the user takes a potential bullet for the framee? That seems like the kind of thing Fallacy would do. Purely speculative, though, and I have no strong reason not to think RGU isn't just bullshitting now, although I still strongly suggest not lynching either of us yet because this is not strong evidence either way.

Also, hec, if I was on scumteam with blueturtle I woulda tried harder to stop him from going off half-cocked and saying things in discord all the time.

[hector13]

I guess we can ask any potential redirector if they decided to redirect RGU to MaxSpin. I think we can agree a mafia redirector is not going to redirect an unknown ability onto their scumbuddy, yes?

[Maximum Spin]

Again, case by case analysis:

Spin's town: He's claiming that he has an inherent bias towards doctor claims...? Can anyone that knows him collaborate this? And Mafia would totally want to kill you even if you're committed. Kill you this night, kill Random the next; doctor and cop, done with. You're using broken logic and emotional reasoning to support your actions, which isn't really towny.

Wow, rude

In all seriousness, I'm just not sure what else to do. I don't have any strong basis on which to proclaim my innocence, nor do I have any strong reason to think or convince you that RGU is lying. Besides, I'm clearly claiming that I have an inherent bias toward claims. (and you meant corroborate ) Anyway, what you're missing from the "doctor and cop, done with" thing is that it gives the cop another chance, and I estimate it's likely that there are other cops out there, now that I know for a fact that there were at least two doctors. I mean, my other option is probably going to be getting lynched now, so I want to at least have the chance to be helpful to town, instead of just spending all my turns protecting hec like I was otherwise going to.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here has enough experience with me to corroborate my point about claiming things too much, but, I mean, just the last game I was in, I pretty much laid out my entire role on d1. It didn't save me there either...

I guess we can ask any potential redirector if they decided to redirect RGU to MaxSpin. I think we can agree a mafia redirector is not going to redirect an unknown ability onto their scumbuddy, yes?

I meant that the other way around; that RGU thinks he investigated me, but actually was redirected to somebody else. And, uh, yes, it does seem like a mafia redirector would redirect an unknown ability onto a scumbuddy? I'd do it. It's certainly a ballsy move, but I think one that would certainly have its place, especially if the mafia already has information about what abilities are in play or there are some other unknown modifiers on the redirect, but even if not; and early in the game you'd expect the chance that the ability is a kill to be low.

[hector13]

That is entirely what I meant, redirect RGU to someone who is not MaxSpin. Whoops.

I do not appreciate the shade you throw my way, though. You may keep your filthy buddying/guilt by association to yourself

[randomgenericusername]

This is just appeal to emotion, which only makes you scummier in my eyes. I don't believe there's a mafia framer because that would mean scum has two framers. FoU also confirmed that hidden modifiers are not included in the game. Those are mostly used in bastard games, while this is mostly vanilla.

Since you are a doctor, you don't have an investigative ability or evidence against me. I am a cop and have a scum result on you, which makes you confirmed scum from my point of view.

I'm pushing to not be lynched. That's an outright lie. I said I'm pushing for one of us to be lynched. My lynch would confirm you as scum and your lynch would confirm me as cop, so town wins either way. So what if you flip town? Town will just lynch me and I'll die, simple as that.

Also, It's very late and I'm super tired, so I might go to sleep soon.