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[IcyTea31]

Everyone: thoughts about Hector?

Gut says town; behaviour casts some, but not a lot of doubt on that. I mostly agree with MM's thoughts.

if I can eliminate a "down ballot" scum, as I've been calling them in my internal monologue

What do you mean by "down ballot scum"?

[Tiruin]

{wincon stuff}

You make it sound as if most third parties are intrinsically neutral with regard to scum wincon. But see,

It might depend on which Third Parties specifically, but in general, no. If you want more information, you'll need to be more specific about which Third Parties.

unless I've mis-parsed that badly, web answers "no" when asked if scum will win the scenario presented where (town+generic thirds) outnumber them. Then hints that specific alignments may be exceptions. So I want to know whether the particular 3rds that have been claimed are exceptions to that general case. I don't know that Tiruin is mistaken, but I'd feel more certain hearing it from on high.

Ah, this is (at least in my metaknowledge) because Web deals with customized roles that play with alignment and stuff. So even if an alignment is neutral--but has abilities that can deter other alignments, it's a toss up.

As in, you can ask specifics when stuff roleflips.

Huh, I was kinda expecting that someone would have negative distance or stuff like that, but everyone seems fine so far.

Looks like you're missing out on the 200km power-up giveaway.

I just noticed . . . hector appears to be racing faster than either day one. Hm.

Can I raise that instead of a no lynch, we lynch Hector to test again the unlynchability outside of viewable factors?

Because I'ma PFP because FINALS IN MASTERALS Ending on Saturday.
Which hopefully I pass.

[IcyTea31]

I don't think repeatedly lynching Hector is going to give us any more information.

[mightymushroom]

What do you mean by "down ballot scum"?

The television ads for the fall elections are well under way where I live, and it seems to be affecting my thinking. At the "top" of the ballot are the people making headlines, in this case FoU, RGU, BHK, and hector who have debated a fair amount and gotten the most attention in the contest.

Then there are "down ballot" players who, like candidates for minor office, have for one reason or another not been as loud in debates. quinnr, IcyTea, Tiruin, probably myself. Silence is not by itself damning, there may be valid reasons. But that's one way I've filed things mentally. My current hypothesis is that there is at least one scum in the down ballot, and at least one in the upper portion who is a good enough actor that I don't have any credible case.

-----

Why pick on quinnr? I see two sets of claims for last night. It might be that one of these is false, but nobody has given me a single shred to contradict any fibbers.

1) RGU claims to be blocked. FoU claims to have done it. BHK backs up FoU while being under FoU's jailkeeping. Three mutually coherent stories.

2) IcyTea claims no result from MM. MM validates Icy Tea while claiming blocked. Tiruin claims block on MM. Again it's a mutual trio.

Moony, to the best of our knowledge, didn't have a suicide pill. That leaves hector13 or quinnr with no alibi for the kill. Again, silence is not damning, but between the two hector has been more actively town and also harder to pressure for his action claim. quinnr, though, has been at best a weak town and really needs to say something if possible, please, because it seems only you have an interest in defending yourself. If quinnr were to flip town I would be very sorry but I also believe I'm following my best line of investigation.

[randomgenericusername]

I like your reasoning. quinnr has indeed been silent for a long time, and scum tends to post less than town members. Since everyone seems to have coherent stories of what they did during the night, quinnr seems like the only current suspect who could have done the kill.

quinnr

Going to leave my vote on the pile until he explains himself.

I currently feel at least one of these is a scum member:

hector13: Everyone knows why. The time loop mess up that almost gets people lynched and the claimed unlynchable I didn't believe until the second revival. He could have multiple revives, like Tiruin said.

FoU: I don't even know. He has total freedom to do whatever he wants. He can either mess with us or help us. He could side with scum as a superpowered individual or help town with his jailing and roleblocks. He still wants abilities in payment, despite having already "won", which makes me suspicious.

BHK: Wanted to roleblock me, making FoU go against his wincon despite my offer to give him roles (and also could have roleblocked anyone else to still gain 2 abilities.). Says to be a survivor, but could be scum with FoU.

quinnr: Doesn't speak a lot, wanted to make a plan to win the prize and then duplicate it with the rest. Then gets hit 5 times(!) Only one who hasn't said what they did tonight, other than hector13 (who we probably don't want to lynch because he revived the last time we tried.)

[mightymushroom]

quinnr has indeed been silent for a long time, and scum tends to post less than town members.

I want to reiterate that, on my part, it is not the silence but the practicality of the other players' stories. To break one of those trios you'd need to be able to make a case against two of them at the same time, or a specific counterclaim on a roleblock. I can do neither.

Since everyone seems to have coherent stories of what they did during the night, quinnr seems like the only current suspect who could have done the kill.

You might be careful in how you summarize me, unless you have something to add? This is the second time you've agreed with me on quinnr (the first was right after I had a similar argument before Tiruin made a firm claim) and dismissed the other suspect(s) in what I perceive as an off-handed manner. I have no pressure to challenge hector without going after quinnr first, that's not the same as having only one person to challenge.

Fun fact opinion: Earlier I said hector13 is probably the hardest player to draw connections for being on a scum team. I think RGU looks reasonably clear on his own account, yet is, for me, the easiest player to add to a team, including one with hector! There's so many combinations they can't possibly all be true.

[randomgenericusername]

I guess that means I'm consistent with my reads. I felt he was suspicious before and I still feel he's suspicious. It's something we happen to agree on, probably because we're seeing the same thing about him. Is that a bad thing?

And I don't see the "dismissed the other suspect(s) in what I perceive as an off-handed manner." I had already said I was highly suspicious of the FoU and BHK pair before, I think. I try to not be very insistent.

[mightymushroom]

Maybe it's just a tone thing that I'm reading too much into it where you say, "quinnr seems like the only current suspect who could have done the kill," yet I explicitly listed two possible suspects and my reason for pursuing quinnr first. I felt misquoted.

[FallacyofUrist]

Why don't you?
Everyone: thoughts about Hector?

I still don't trust him. Really. His reviving doesn't quite jibe with "unlynchable", he's not really aggressively pursuing scum like he does as town, and he seems to be ignoring the utility of my abilities to town. Especially considering randomgenericusername's ability factory to pay for my services.

FoU: I don't even know. He has total freedom to do whatever he wants. He can either mess with us or help us. He could side with scum as a superpowered individual or help town with his jailing and roleblocks. He still wants abilities in payment, despite having already "won", which makes me suspicious.

Well, if I don't side with the town, I get lynched. Getting lynched reduces my impact on the game and hence the fun I have. Gaining more abilities means more options and more fun.

I don't think repeatedly lynching Hector is going to give us any more information.

I suppose randomgenericusername could kill him.

[randomgenericusername]

Yes, but it's a 1-shot. Unless we're 100% sure of someone being scum, I would rather not use it. It would be a waste to use it on anyone, even the thirds because I would lose the chance to steal a mafiakill ability from scum. I would then have to continue using my "gain new ability" power until I get something useful.

Also, hector13 could just revive from it if his ability is actually something like x-shot reviving.

[FallacyofUrist]

True...

Huh. From the phrasing of the ability, the kill doesn't need to be successful in order for you to steal the mafiakill abilities the target has.

[webadict]

webadict:

Mafia or cult need to equal or outnumber "the remaining players" as part of their wincon. Do the parties they need to outnumber include Survivors? Outsiders?

Does an Outsider who fulfills their win condition thereby leave the game?

Yes, they would be included unless circumstances did not need to. Something such as the remaining town being Survivors, in which case, all players would win at that time.

[hector13]

Why don't you?
Everyone: thoughts about Hector?

I still don't trust him. Really. His reviving doesn't quite jibe with "unlynchable", he's not really aggressively pursuing scum like he does as town, and he seems to be ignoring the utility of my abilities to town. Especially considering randomgenericusername's ability factory to pay for my services.

I need you to consider this from town!me's perspective: you are claimed non-town and you have no particular reason with which to side with town, considering you have already won. (as a side note: do you need to be alive to win?)

You are presently protecting another claimed TP - one who is not at all working with the town despite that protection - and you are essentially holding the town to ransom in order to actually put your powers to use for the town, so the utility you claim comes at a massive cost to town, in that they lose the ability to act for themselves.

In addition to all this, you have claimed immunity (presumably from kills) so yes, I am deeply unsettled by your presence in the game, and I don't particularly want to be hammered by a ballsy scum gambit.

Aside from that, the three people I pushed as scum earlier haven't been around. How am I supposed to "aggressively pursue" someone who isn't here?


I need a more concrete claim from Tiruin before revealing what I did.

Tiruin: what did you do last night and who did you do it to?

True...

Huh. From the phrasing of the ability, the kill doesn't need to be successful in order for you to steal the mafiakill abilities the target has.

I'm not called RGU, nor am I scum. Why are you trying to get the town to use 1-shot kills meant for scum on me? Point: you think I'm scum.

What makes you think I'm scum?

Broad strokes of my game so far: I messed up big time on D1-1. I then told y'all that lynching me would be a waste because I was unlynchable, which was the right thing to do 'cause I don't want lynches to be wasted, but y'all did it anyway and found out I was truthing. Then y'all started voting for me again, so I told y'all multiple times in varying degrees of upsetness that I was unlynchable, but y'all did it and found out once again that I was truthing.


Your presence is bothersome because you have no reason to side with town, even after payment. You have been protecting a claimed TP, even working against your "wincon" at the behest of your "customer", blocking a player that just so happens to have a 1-shot kill ability that will mess up scum big time. I wonder why?

You're scum, he's your partner. Game over.


Since some of you seem to be thinking I had a revive instead of being unlynchable D1-1 and 1-2, how do you think the flavourtext would differ if I was unlynchable?

Guess we could ask webadict:

webadict:1. how would the following two scenarios appear in the end of day flavour text:

a) someone with a revive gets lynched.

b) someone who is unlynchable gets lynched.

2. You seem to have missed MM's question about whether or not an Outside stays in the game once they've won. Would an Outsider that achieves their wincon remain in the game?

[FallacyofUrist]

webadict:1. how would the following two scenarios appear in the end of day flavour text:

a) someone with a revive gets lynched.

b) someone who is unlynchable gets lynched.

2. You seem to have missed MM's question about whether or not an Outside stays in the game once they've won. Would an Outsider that achieves their wincon remain in the game?

Less "flavor text", and more "what happened text".

Your presence is bothersome because you have no reason to side with town, even after payment. You have been protecting a claimed TP, even working against your "wincon" at the behest of your "customer", blocking a player that just so happens to have a 1-shot kill ability that will mess up scum big time. I wonder why?

Blocking a player with a 1-shot kill ability that they explicitly said they weren't going to use.

Broad strokes of my game so far: I messed up big time on D1-1. I then told y'all that lynching me would be a waste because I was unlynchable, which was the right thing to do 'cause I don't want lynches to be wasted, but y'all did it anyway and found out I was truthing. Then y'all started voting for me again, so I told y'all multiple times in varying degrees of upsetness that I was unlynchable, but y'all did it and found out once again that I was truthing.

What's missing from this paragraph? Description about how you found(or pursued) scum. Other than hunting me(the benign third party), I wouldn't really say you've done any hunting of note. Feel free to provide quote evidence if I'm missing something.

I need you to consider this from town!me's perspective: you are claimed non-town and you have no particular reason with which to side with town, considering you have already won. (as a side note: do you need to be alive to win?)

The town can pay me more, giving me more options and hence more possible fun. Really, fun(for me and everyone) is the only reason I'm still posting. I've already won. It's possible I need to be alive to win, but it wasn't stated in my win condition.

You are presently protecting another claimed TP - one who is not at all working with the town despite that protection - and you are essentially holding the town to ransom in order to actually put your powers to use for the town, so the utility you claim comes at a massive cost to town, in that they lose the ability to act for themselves.

For starters, there's randomgenericusername's ability factory which will be good enough payment unless someone else publicly makes a bigger bid. No cost to town. All benefit to town and me.

As for BHK... I'll admit he's not scum hunting. Then again, it's not like there aren't other people who aren't scum hunting, and at least he paid. In any case, his reservation on my actions will end Day 1-3.

In addition to all this, you have claimed immunity (presumably from kills) so yes, I am deeply unsettled by your presence in the game, and I don't particularly want to be hammered by a ballsy scum gambit.

Aside from that, the three people I pushed as scum earlier haven't been around. How am I supposed to "aggressively pursue" someone who isn't here?

Well consider this: the scum need to match or exceed the number of other players in the game. BHK and I count.

[hector13]

Who do I need to hunt when I've found the scumteam, brah?