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[FantasticDorf]

Used to contain the discussion from the current FotF thread, voice your opinion, theories and constructive dissent on slow learners here please.

Here's a recap of what we have so far.

Page 1 - the main bulk starting here

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Will semi-intelligent combatant's role in conflicts be more streamlined by the time of better integration into raiding and armies of war animals and mounts?"

I imagine this to be slightly different to the previous question on 'support roles' because already, goblins already employ trolls for off map conflicts implicitly of virtually any size without having to need to add any tags onto the creature themselves. It doesn't always turn out smoothly and you hear rumors about oddities like some trolls appearing wearing iron armor & others of goblins riding on their backs without much consistency as what to expect through a mixture of possibly buggy application.

Trolls and ogres wearing armor and wielding weapons is not odd. In all cases I've seen it they have full two part names and a military title (the ogre was a bowman, which is a role where its physical strength is really useful...). One theory I've seen is that they are ones who have gained enough training (becoming hist figs?) is a previous conflict to be upgraded from the "recruit" level (note that unarmed and unarmored "civilized" race recruits aren't uncommon in goblin armies). Beak dog warriors is off, though (I've never seen those myself).

Whether they should or shouldn't is another thing entirely especially if its wrongly applied with its application on giving recruit status to creatures who have learnt fighting skills for alligator/horse recruits comparably etc. I've got a picture i pulled off a DF discord of beakies and trolls with single forenames. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/173888543419006976/426522387903938580/dfsasdasd.JPG

I mean there's no complaint to giving a troll a hammer if it's going to use it, but its no the same kind of equipping you'd find on intelligent fighters since they're not equals hence i asked the question whether something more concrete in definition would be put in.

Regarding the alligator or other predatory animals getting recruit titles, I'd think its related to them just getting kills in worldgen, which comes with them also getting a name.

Don't really have an explanation for why some of the trolls/ogres end up having only a single name and others have both a name and a last name, along with armor. I suppose it'd be related to SLOW_LEARNER, leading to them being treated as some form of livestock, aside from the few individuals that get higher weapon skills.
I'm mostly thinking that because of some old sieges I had from some of my modded races - for example in this one, the regular ogres were a caste with slow learner, but as you can see some only have a first name while others have both a first name and a last name along with the recruit title. Same thing with the fel brutes in this screencap - they were also a slow learner caste. I can't really explain why the named "puffalo recruit" is a thing though, considering they're just wild animals.

Could be, but its unlikely its down to any one singular cause like that.

A few notes @button mentioned on bug-tracker relevant talk about that full intelligent creatures jump into citizenship when they learn a skill especially i would say leaning towards a skill associated with a position like a broker, so something recursive might be occuring here for recruit selection. Kept in mind that semi-intelligent (and pet full intelligents) in play are difficult to handle and ignore pasture & training orders requiring micromanagement, burrows to force them into areas else they will continue following civilian routines.

Troll shearing operations for instance when they are modded into regular play as cleanly as possible bothersomely require a great amount of planning to establish a pernament living quarters for trolls in a burrow who elsewise will resist being pulled in to be sheared and remain queued to do hauling jobs without dwarf-therapist. Gremlins in vanilla regularly ignore prompts to train their pet status after they ascend into becoming a citizen as a long term citizenship petition. etc. etc.

The reason for most the differences that they are defined as pets in the entity, it does not have anything to do with their tokens.  Armour will be related to skills, most probably.  The extra names *may* come from having lots of kills, you get extra names if you kill enough historical people.  Bugs may be involved in the situation as regards the names for intelligent pet creatures, it could be that it just gives them a regular two-part name rather than a full mass-murderer name, since they don't have a surname to begin with due to being pets(?).

You missed my point - they DIDN'T have pet tokens, and weren't defined as pets in the entity - they were a caste of the civs main race which just had SLOW_LEARNER. The "unarmed, unarmored, no last name" thing didn't happen with the non-slow learner castes. Civilized creatures tend to have both a first and last name regardless of their kills - obviously this didn't happen with those slow learner castes - some seemingly were treated the same way as trolls, others were normal recruits. So that's why I'm thinking there's something up with the slow learner token.

Page 2 - this one is much shorter.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

quote author=GoblinCookie link=topic=169696.msg7725198#msg7725198 date=1522602999]

[USE_EVIL_CREATURES] has implicit influence of adding [COMMON_DOMESTIC] like acquisition behaviour and non interfacable pet/livestock tags & war training to trolls which conflicts with existing issues surrounding the creature's restrained but not total lack of intelligence when put in realised play sort of like how [PET] had to be added to beak dogs & unicorns (the good creature diametric) after the raiding update because they were being taken, unusable with weird hostilities because for a long time they were a AI civ only accessory designed to be a unreachable game-adversary rather than a equal creature codewise taken for its [MOUNT] tag and not much else by systems outside the player's space.

Edit - whoops i completely missed your message too, i just had to reread it to make sure and yeah, that's a really weird application of a caste.

It has nothing to do with the tokens.  Creatures are either defined as citizens, or they are defined as pets, if they are not citizens then they are pets.  [PET] simple allows civilizations to take wild creatures as pets.  The naming thing is wield, it appears that all the two-headed ogres in your screenshot have double names but so do some of the single-headed ogres, but only the ones that were drafted into the military.  I think that this is may be a historical character thing, all intelligent historical characters get double barrel names but regular non-historicals only get given double names if they do not have [SLOW_LEARNER] and are intelligent.

Another possibility is that intelligent creatures that get promoted into historicals simply become citizens UNLESS they are [SLOW_LEARNER].
[/quote]

This is where we are right now and ill port over my reply to goblincookies recent post.

It has nothing to do with the tokens.  Creatures are either defined as citizens, or they are defined as pets, if they are not citizens then they are pets.  [PET] simple allows civilizations to take wild creatures as pets. 

Slow learners are both, trolls have no explicit tags upon them but the [USE_EVIL_CREATURES] forces the livestock aspect onto them to anyway without [PET] or anything of the sort. For all intensive purposes, trolls cannot be classed as intelligent citizens because they have codified slow learner restriction and changes but are only pushed into a intelligent creature. I doubt that caste ZM5 has are really citizens, but it is the system in conflict of having them in both fields until a more direct line is drawn under it in a similar instance to where gremlins stop being livestock pets.

Trolls you embark with if you were to mod in a simple civilization switch and some basic noble roles to prevent crashes can be elected by other sentients to be the expedition leader, start & equip tailored clothes for themselves at a later date, prefer to sleep in beds and claim rooms and in previous versions could work occupation roles.    "(*) Stopped certain stolen livestock from being treated like half-citizens on the 44.07" may indeed be relevant if things are slipping the net in wibbly wobbly middlespace.

Sorry if its a lot of text, but it IS a containment thread where each piece of detail is important to preserve where we can.

[PatrikLundell]

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...

[FantasticDorf]

They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was).

The lack of a jump to letting you see their inner thoughts is a credible evidence towards the fact they aren't actually citizens or have cast off their pet code decisively, when comparably long term residents of civilized visitor races do. Let it be noted that @Button successfully wild caught wolverine men to the same effect in this mantis note for the gremlin issue report.

[PET] and [PET_EXOTIC] act upon different terms with it generally noted that [PET] will afflict jobs onto creatures typically and [PET_EXOTIC] will keep them as plain livestock.

[GoblinCookie]

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...

Pets are a citizen status, not a token.  The creatures behave according to their citizen status and whether they can work, not according to whether they have that token or not.  These statuses are unalterable at present, so there is no way for a pet to become a citizen or vice versa.  They are also bugged so that even though pets that can learn are treated as workers by the game, their labours are not controllable by the interface and only default labours are active. 

[PatrikLundell]

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...

Pets are a citizen status, not a token.  The creatures behave according to their citizen status and whether they can work, not according to whether they have that token or not.  These statuses are unalterable at present, so there is no way for a pet to become a citizen or vice versa.  They are also bugged so that even though pets that can learn are treated as workers by the game, their labours are not controllable by the interface and only default labours are active. 

Catch a gremlin. It's an "animal". Tame it. It's an animal. Accepts its citizenship application. It's no longer an animal but a citizen according to the Units screens, but it is still a butcherable (and trainable) animal according to the z-animal screen. In addition to this. Their citizen status is stunted. I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens. I haven't tried it, but I would expect it to be possible for a citizen to adopt a gremlin as a pet. Gremlins can work, but you can only make them work in non hauler positions (and restrict hauler ones) through non vanilla means (such as DFHack and Dwarf Therapist). I think Dwarf Therapist also allows you to set residents (such as mercs) and children to work, although I haven't tried that either (residents currently work as harvesters and traders occasionally in vanilla, given the opportunity. My first gremlin in the current fortress switched from being a gremlin hunter to a gremlin trader after taking up an "anyone can trade" trading job before he had applied for citizenship, for instance).
Animals are not pets in the game play sense before they are adopted (or adopt), so that status is not immutable (they can probably never CEASE to be pets, though). You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well). When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.

[FantasticDorf]

I hate to mention it but that wall of text PatrikLundell was not easy on the eyes to look through, but i picked out the parts i felt were relevant from it.

I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens.

Definitely unexpected behaviour

You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well)

Giving the creature additional training is a odd one, especially when you in turn give a semi-intelligent a pet or war animal when it may be a pet/war animal itself. In many ways you can exploit this by making a semi-sapient a war animal with relevant tags, then equip them into a military squad buggily

When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.

That's not meant to be possible, toady disabled the capability to take intelligent subordinate creatures in raids.

[PatrikLundell]

I hate to mention it but that wall of text PatrikLundell was not easy on the eyes to look through, but i picked out the parts i felt were relevant from it.
:

That's valid criticism. I'll try to split it up more (but won't make promises...).

:

I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens.

Definitely unexpected behaviour
:

Not really. Bonding between trainer and trainee "animals" isn't uncommon. It would require an explicit action to remove/convert such a bond upon becoming a citizen, as well as blocking one from forming once they are citizens (which won't happen for me, as I set them to Tame once they become citizens, due to the training bugginess).

:
That's not meant to be possible, toady disabled the capability to take intelligent subordinate creatures in raids.

Ah, missed/misinterpreted that. I think that's for the better anyway.

[GoblinCookie]

Catch a gremlin. It's an "animal". Tame it. It's an animal. Accepts its citizenship application. It's no longer an animal but a citizen according to the Units screens, but it is still a butcherable (and trainable) animal according to the z-animal screen. In addition to this. Their citizen status is stunted. I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens. I haven't tried it, but I would expect it to be possible for a citizen to adopt a gremlin as a pet. Gremlins can work, but you can only make them work in non hauler positions (and restrict hauler ones) through non vanilla means (such as DFHack and Dwarf Therapist). I think Dwarf Therapist also allows you to set residents (such as mercs) and children to work, although I haven't tried that either (residents currently work as harvesters and traders occasionally in vanilla, given the opportunity. My first gremlin in the current fortress switched from being a gremlin hunter to a gremlin trader after taking up an "anyone can trade" trading job before he had applied for citizenship, for instance).
Animals are not pets in the game play sense before they are adopted (or adopt), so that status is not immutable (they can probably never CEASE to be pets, though). You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well). When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.

I have not invented anything, that is how the game works; it does not have anything to do with being adopted by anyone, that is an extra element.  You have entity citizens, which used to be always dwarves until recently, then you have entity pets and then you have wild animals.  The confusing thing is when you have intelligent creatures that are also pets rather than citizens, this used to be the automatic consequence of having a citizen that was not a dwarf.  I was unaware that gremlins could make citizenship applications, that requires that they be resident visitors correct?  If you capture and tame an intelligent creature, it is still a pet ablait one with extra abilities and restrictions as a consequence of it's intelligence tokens.  But since the interface is broken you cannot make proper use of working creatures with pet status, though they carry out a lot of the behavior of citizens automatically in any case. 

Basically the whole thing is an unholy, mangled mess.   

[PatrikLundell]

No. Gremlins do not join civilizations the normal animal people way, and thus cannot come to your fortress as a visitor (unless it would be from a retired player fortress, somehow). You capture them in gremlin trap setups, tame them, and that presumably implicitly serves as the first petition. After a year or so they typically progress in skill to gremlin hunter (from just gremlin), and after two years they make a citizen petition. I've never rejected any of those (for gremlins or any other residents), so I don't know what would happen if I did.

Modding (surface) animal people with the [PET_EXOTIC] tag has been described to cause wild captured ones to behave as gremlins do, but I've never tried that, so it's second hand info.

Gremlins drink, sleep in beds [first in rooms associated with the tavern, and then they claim a regular room] (and they die of sleep deprivation if kept in a cage and trained after capture), read books, socialize... They can be entered into militia squads once they're citizens (although they're rather useless, as they can't wield any weapon dwarves can make, and I don't know if a kobold knife is too large for a double grip usage, and just a shield causes them to move at a crawl).