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[KuudereChef]

I'm just gonna make this short and simple: I wanna be able to make a little love story in DF.
I want to see a way to possibly woo NPCs as a player in a somewhat more dwarf-like dating sim fashion (giving gifts and getting on their good side can help steer a relationship with a character to a more romantic direction)

On a side note...
Another thing that always bugged me with the relationships in DF is how random they were. A system of attractions would be nice to add in to add a slight amount of sense and predictability to things.

It would work as follows
A character has preferences for who have traits they find desirable. for example:
Urist McAveragedwarf likes dwarves with red hair, brown hair, combed hair, braided hair, pale skin, tan skin, convex noses, thin noses, brown eyes, blue eyes, tall bodies, and large bodies. He likes dwarves that are rude, proud, vengeful, and prefer discord.

the system for deciding preferences is based off of what the dwarf prefers in terms of things such as items or minerals. For example, a dwarf that likes gold might like dwarves with hair described as blonde or orange.

[FantasticDorf]

I agree on the attractions system, right now compatability is sort of a strange coding oddity where quarrelsome dwarves don't particularly like each other for their traits and prefer to argue a lot.

[GoblinCookie]

On a side note...
Another thing that always bugged me with the relationships in DF is how random they were. A system of attractions would be nice to add in to add a slight amount of sense and predictability to things.

I think the relationship attraction really should be random.

[Abyzou]

On a side note...
Another thing that always bugged me with the relationships in DF is how random they were. A system of attractions would be nice to add in to add a slight amount of sense and predictability to things.

I think the relationship attraction really should be random.

Really? Why? Wouldn't a proper system of attraction be better since it adds realism?

[GoblinCookie]

Really? Why? Wouldn't a proper system of attraction be better since it adds realism?

Realism is that attraction is random. 

[Abyzou]

Really? Why? Wouldn't a proper system of attraction be better since it adds realism?

Realism is that attraction is random.

But it isn't perfectly random, is it? Among humans at least there are some preferences that are ubiquitous if not universal (e.g. high symmetry, smooth unblemished skin etc.). Sexual selection, and all that. And of course cultural factors can shape individual preferences to an extent. Though I do worry this might be opening a can of worms...

[GoblinCookie]

But it isn't perfectly random, is it? Among humans at least there are some preferences that are ubiquitous if not universal (e.g. high symmetry, smooth unblemished skin etc.). Sexual selection, and all that. And of course cultural factors can shape individual preferences to an extent. Though I do worry this might be opening a can of worms...

Correct, in that it is not perfectly random but random within a set.  But it never works such that I can guarantee a successful romance by  combining a person who has the right traits with another person with the right general traits (at a level of detail which the game has). 

The non-random element should be a minimal requirement to be considered for random selection. 

[VislarRn]

It would work as follows
A character has preferences for who have traits they find desirable. for example:
Urist McAveragedwarf likes dwarves with red hair, brown hair, combed hair, braided hair, pale skin, tan skin, convex noses, thin noses, brown eyes, blue eyes, tall bodies, and large bodies. He likes dwarves that are rude, proud, vengeful, and prefer discord.

I would also prefer this kind of system. To integrate this system more as a whole, I would make some correlation for traditional minded dwarves to prefer aesthetics similar to their parents or maybe historical civilization leaders and vice versa. For example, it was typical for kings court to set the standards of beauty and fashion.

In a very very broad sense, that would create sexual selection, a system where some individuals have more chance to procreate and some would have less. Which in turn, would determine what kind of traits get to spread through civilization over time. It would be really cool to watch how this microevolution expresses itself through time.

[FantasticDorf]

Less grandeur may just be to have outsiders with a cultural dwarven hairstyle trimming (a 100 length scraggly beard) be more 'attractive' compared to elves who often go clean-shaven. As a non particular cultural versus personal favourite trait.

[GoblinCookie]

I would also prefer this kind of system. To integrate this system more as a whole, I would make some correlation for traditional minded dwarves to prefer aesthetics similar to their parents or maybe historical civilization leaders and vice versa. For example, it was typical for kings court to set the standards of beauty and fashion.

In a very very broad sense, that would create sexual selection, a system where some individuals have more chance to procreate and some would have less. Which in turn, would determine what kind of traits get to spread through civilization over time. It would be really cool to watch how this microevolution expresses itself through time.

The problem with sexual selection is that if there is a trait that some individual dwarves have which makes them more likely to procreate, then why is that trait not *already* universal among dwarves due to sexual selection in the past?  In order for a trait to be diverse in the first place, it must be not be subject to natural or sexual selection, in biology selected-for traits are actually distinguished by a low-level of diversity, while traits which are not subject to selection tend to be diverse. 

That means that there is no point in making a non-random system to determine individual preferences, because those traits will already have become universal for that species, subspecies or race.  If the majority of dwarf women prefer dwarf men with round ears, then *all* dwarf men (minus a few deformed ones) will have round ears.  That means there is no point in us describing how the dwarf women like round ears, we might as well say they like dwarf men.

Only by having things random, does the mechanism of personal preferences actually work.

[VislarRn]

The problem with sexual selection is that if there is a trait that some individual dwarves have which makes them more likely to procreate, then why is that trait not *already* universal among dwarves due to sexual selection in the past?

This only applies when we presume that cultural preferences for certain civilization will never change over time.
My idea comes generally from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory. And in this context i meant that learning and culture may shape human mating behaviour and preferences.

[GoblinCookie]

This only applies when we presume that cultural preferences for certain civilization will never change over time.
My idea comes generally from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory. And in this context i meant that learning and culture may shape human mating behaviour and preferences.

Very interesting link.  However, everything I said before still applies with DIT, it just becomes more complex to explain it.   

The problem is that if what is considered attractive is decided by culture, then it is decided by the folks with the most power.  Those people will naturally use that power to make people think that they and their kin are the most attractive, thus causing sexual selection to drive kin selection.  That in turn means that in general, those who look like the rulers regardless of whether they *are* the rulers end up being favored by sexual selection.  However the rulers of today tend to the relatives of the rulers of yesterday, that means that they look like yesterday's rulers, so they too are going to maintain the same standards; so the cultural preferences remain consistent as long as the rulers of today remain closely related to the rulers of yesterday.  As time goes on, the effect of culturally determined sexual selection advances, so even the folks who are *not* closely related to the rulers even up looking like the rulers, since the traits are selected for independently of general relatedness.

That means that even if it so happens to come to pass that a new family comes to power, the odds are that this new family has been sexually selected to look like the previous family, so the cultural standards still do not change.  The outcome of the sexual selection driven by cultural factors is exactly the same as it would be were sexual selection driven by biological factors, the traits that are sexually selected for end up being near-universal.  That is the case with all forms of biological selection, whatever the basis of it, the outcome is always uniformity; this means that if we see diversity in a single population it pretty much is establishes the diverse traits are not subject to selection.

Which means that individual preferences should be random and non-inherited in DF.

[VislarRn]

That means that even if it so happens to come to pass that a new family comes to power, the odds are that this new family has been sexually selected to look like the previous family, so the cultural standards still do not change.

Ok, I'll try to explain it more thoroughly.

When you create a system of preferences for your dwarves,
you make it very roughly dependent on some kind of personality factor that interacts with the world.

Let's say dwarf loves tradition, then this dwarf probably likes some features that belong to some historical king or queen.
Dwarf is very family oriented - then he/she takes some preference traits from parents.

Now different possibilities will arise - in very traditionally minded culture, this might create more strict aesthetical standards, making things a little easier for those who bear these standards. However when you take more different personality traits into account, like family as in my example, these preferences might totally nullify eachother which in case make no general trends in macro-social scale. Or they might amplify eachother or they might even fluctuate - because world goes on and different events shape different social dynamics. Overall cultural values of civilization might also change (which is mechanic that is not implemented yet) when something drastic happens.

Your position is that sexual selection creates some *already* universal traits which is technically correct of course. However, only when you don't take larger historical events into account. Lets make an example and say 95% of civilization members get suddenly killed. What happens then? This type of bottleneck can make rare traits becoming universal and vice versa.

[Bumber]

The problem is that if what is considered attractive is decided by culture, then it is decided by the folks with the most power.  Those people will naturally use that power to make people think that they and their kin are the most attractive, thus causing sexual selection to drive kin selection.

How? By using thought police? Peasants are pragmatic breeders.

[Dorsidwarf]

The problem is that if what is considered attractive is decided by culture, then it is decided by the folks with the most power.  Those people will naturally use that power to make people think that they and their kin are the most attractive, thus causing sexual selection to drive kin selection.

[/quote]

But this attraction to social cues (dress style, beard style etc) clearly is *not* universally fixed to the rulers dictates - Fashion has changed constantly (if at varying rates) throughout the entirety of human history - your theory is disproved by googling “16th century fashion” and then breaking down in a fit of laughter.

Of note is however that attraction to attributes is often caused by single or small groups of individuals who possess that trait (or outlandish fashion) in addition to others that are prized (Star athlete, dashing hero adventurer, heir to the throne), causing courtly imitation that then trickles down to the populace