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[Leiker]

Hello Overseers!

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I did spent some time googling and looking at wiki without finding an answer.

I recently got a migrant who likes cloaks. I like to equip my military with cloaks, so I figured I would try to get him to make an artifact cloak.
But that got me thinking about materials, so I have the following questions:

Does material make a difference in protection levels for clothes?
Is there a difference between protection offered by leather and cloth?
What about adamantium cloth?

I had initially decided to make him leatherworker, but maybe clothmaker makes more sense, since he would be able to make adamantium artifact cloak?

[PatrikLundell]

As far as I understand leather should be slightly better than cloth, with candy very being superior to both. As artifacts are immune to wear, a candy cloak would be a very desirable artifact.

[Leiker]

So I guess the conclusion is that I should make him into a clothmaker then, rather than leatherworker.

[PatrikLundell]

Assuming you've got access to candy, yes.

[Leiker]

I do, thanks for your advice

[MCreeper]

Actually, adamantine clothing is probably superior to steel armor, protection-wise. Adamantine robe can't be penetrated even by adamantine spear wielded by legendary spearman(don't sure about his strenght, though, because it was arena test).
Just tested, steel breastplate + steel mail shirt might as well not exist against adamantine spear, and cease to do so after few strikes. Adamantine cloak? All your legendary heavy strikes are deflected! Also adamtine cloak have great coverage.

[rhavviepoodle]

A few misconceptions about material science in this thread. If you check the item cloak, you'll notice that it has either the [LEATHER] or the [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD] tokens, which both affect tension values of the item.

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_CLOAK]
[NAME:cloak:cloaks]
[UBSTEP:MAX]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:COVER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:15]
[LAYER_PERMIT:150]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[SOFT]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD]

Clothing with [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_*] tokens has its stress properties modified.

Items with [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL] or metallic items with [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL] have their [*_STRAIN_AT_YIELD] increased to 50000, which means that blocked attack will not be dampened; it still may be converted to blunt, however. Metal leggings and chainmail shirts have this property in vanilla.

Items made of cloth (including adamantine!) with [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD] additionally have their SHEAR values reduced to negligible 20-30 kPa. This makes candy clothing especially useless in combat. Caps and all clothing have this tag in vanilla.

So my understanding is that a cloak, even if made of adamantine, will have both its strain at yield values raised to 50000 and its shear value reduced significantly. I think that back in the day, candy cloaks were good, but right now they're probably going to be a little bit worse than leather. I suppose they've definitely got bling factor, if that's what you're interested in.

[MCreeper]

Tested with vanilla... Either i REALLY don't understand something, or wiki says blatant lies. If totally stopping all non-blunt weapons, two handed adamantine sword wielded by human included, is "useless in combat", i don't know what is. Yeah, there also twisting forces, but all armor suffers from this. Related question: does bulk of armor in general reduces twisting forces, and by how much? I.e. will dwarf wearing adamantine cloak take more damage from them then dwarf wearing full steel armor(and by "full", i mean "as much as possible")?

[Cathar]

I don't get it either. Basically those tags make the item able to deform under force. It should in all practicality means they would absorb more and transmit less force than hard armor, wouldn't they?

Tho I get the SHEER modifier means it has low resistance against cuts, so cut strikes should actually not be converted into blunt force...But isn't that the opposite of what the wiki states?

Ed : I also understands why adamantine cloth armor would be useless, since it's too light to absorb blunt trauma and has a tag that negates its cut resistance. If it's something like this, I get it. Else either I'm missing something or something doesn't add up

[Leiker]

Some conflicting answers here, so now I am confused too
Guess its not so simple after all.

I think that back in the day, candy cloaks were good, but right now they're probably going to be a little bit worse than leather. I suppose they've definitely got bling factor, if that's what you're interested in.

Bling factor does not matter. I'm trying to build a super soldier here, so I want to make an artifact cloak out of the best possible material.
I am a relatively new player, so I find it hard to understand the technical stuff on the wiki. It seems like Wiki says Adamantium Cloth is useless for armor, so an artifact leather cloak would be superior, but MCreeper did some practical tests that shows artifact adamantium cloak would be the best?

[rhavviepoodle]

I don't have a doctorate in dwarven material science, so I wouldn't quote me on this, but here's my understanding. The initial cutting portion of an attack either pulps the layer (armor, clothing, skin, muscle, etc) or fails to deform the layer and is deflected. Even if the cutting portion of an attack is deflected, it does not lose it's momentum (blunt trauma). While candy is useful at deflecting edged attacks, it isn't very good at dispersing momentum from deflected attacks. According to the wiki, momentum/blunt force is deflected by dense armor, and as such says that one of the optimal loadouts for military is a copper shirt under a candy shirt. That way, the candy layer deflects the cut, and the copper absorbs the blunt trauma. Presumably an artifact platinum shirt would do this even better, but it might be too heavy to be feasible.

Because of the structural elasticity token on cloaks, a candy cloak should not be particularly good at deflecting edged attacks -or- dampening blunt trauma. An artifact cloak will still provide at least some defense, regardless of material.

Quick aside: don't make regular clothing from candy. It deteriorates like any other item, so it ends up wasting the candy, which you have a limited quantity of. Artifact clothing made of candy can still be worth making, though.

[Leiker]

I wasn't planning on making regular clothes out of candy, I am aware of the wear factor that you mentioned.

Its only a question about an artifact leather cloak vs. an artifact adamantium cloth cloak.

Because of the structural elasticity token on cloaks, a candy cloak should not be particularly good at deflecting edged attacks -or- dampening blunt trauma.

Would the problems of structural elasticity when it comes to (artifact)candy cloaks, also be the same for a (artifact)leather cloak?

[Cathar]

I have a similar understanding on the damage mechanism, but I really think (it would make more sense) that resistance to cuts would be governed upon by shear resistance, instead of elasticity. We could test that easily by making adamantium chainmails and check if they stop cuts and transform the force into impact or not

Either way, it means that adamantium hard armor (such as breastplates) can be countered by silver maces easily, since adamantium has a low mass. And either it is governed by elasticity or shear resistance, an adamantium cloack would indeed be absolutely useless, since it cannot stop cuts and has no mass to stop impact. You're basically naked under an adamantium cloack when it comes to attacks. I kinda want to run some tests now.

Ed : Adamantine chainmail will indeed deflect iron axe attacks, suggesting that shear resistance is the value at work, rather than elasticity

Also to answer the question ; a leather cloack likely offer more resistance than an adamantium cloack, as its density is more than double. Neither of them can stop cuts, but leather cloack should soften the blow a wee bit better just because it offers more matter between you and the weapon. Pure conjecture tho

[rhavviepoodle]

I would expect a cloak to at best protect from nicks and scratches during a scuffle with something that isn't huge. When you start adding weapon edges or massive strength into the mix, it will matter less and less.

As for elasticity, I am under the impression that it has no real effect on combat aside from whether or not the armor layer in question will or will not break. In the case of artifacts, it's a moot point. The real concern about the structural elasticity change is the drop in shear fracture and shear yield values.

Leiker, you could always do some science and check out whether or not a candy cloak is as impressive as MCreeper says. I wouldn't mind doing some science, but I don't have the time to thoroughly do it justice.

[mikekchar]

Not to confuse thing even more, but I vaguely remember someone posting something saying that silk has a very high sheer strength and is actually slightly better than leather against edged weapons.  I don't understand it at all, so I might be misleading you :-)