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[PatrikLundell]

There's a significant difference between modifying a save that the game has ported to a newer version and add new things compared to porting an old save to a new format and then add the additional stuff.

It's probably not impossible, once the new format and its relations to the old format components are known, but it would be a fair bit of work, with significant risk of screwing things up (but if done properly, the converted save shouldn't overwrite the original, making it possible to try again with an updated conversion tool).
It's possible a converter would have to do placeholder conversions of some things and leave a report of things people will have to fix up themselves (modified hospitals might be such a thing), because there is no obvious translation from the old format to the new, or there are things that manually have to be added to flesh out the new format.

I agree that Toady's time most likely is better spent on more urgent things than spending a couple of weeks to add save conversion (that would still have the normal backwards compatibility issues of the past, i.e. new stuff not appearing). Obviously the time it would take is a wild guess on my part, but I very much doubts it could be done in hours, and wouldn't be shocked if it was a month or more.

Hm, yes, I have some things in mind that would just take an hour or two to incorporate (including things already implemented in suggestions, so the time would be spent just moving the stuff over), such as a certain arachnid (which isn't on my priority list). I think there's probably a year or more of "just a few hours" things on peoples' wish lists...

[Mr Crabman]

If not, hey, 8 years of backwards compatibility is a fantastic run, and at least we won't have to explain to people that DF:2014 IS the current version of the wiki anymore!!

I don't remember who it was (I wanna say voliol?), but there was a good case made on the forum somewhere that the premium release really should bring a wiki namespace update, even if it doesn't break save compatibility.

[voliol]

If not, hey, 8 years of backwards compatibility is a fantastic run, and at least we won't have to explain to people that DF:2014 IS the current version of the wiki anymore!!

I don't remember who it was (I wanna say voliol?), but there was a good case made on the forum somewhere that the premium release really should bring a wiki namespace update, even if it doesn't break save compatibility.

Yup, here is the thread. It speaks for itself, both the original case and the case against in some of the replies. Though I'd like to add that it was written in 2020, when the Premium updates seemed as likely to be "graphics+mouse support+more consistent key-bindings" as "a totally reworked GUI". The endgame changes that clinodev mention, and the old type of rooms being gone compound onto that, so yeah, I really hope the wiki mods/devs are on board.

(that is the tricky aspect, that ultimately advocating for a new namespace is advocating for more work on someone else's part :/)

[Criperum]

Quick question about new soundtracks(more about dwarven language). Since some of them contains dwarven lyrics does it mean that we have this language for the rest of the dev process? I mean there was a forum topic where some baydweller tryed to make dwarven into actual language and as far as I remember he gave up because you said before that languages will be procgenerated too.

[Mr Crabman]

Since some of them contains dwarven lyrics does it mean that we have this language for the rest of the dev process?

Almost certainly not. Worst case, it can always be a throwback to the original dwarf language from earlier versions, and it's possible (likely even) that the low-randomness settings may have a hardcoded dwarven language much like our current one anyway.

And it's not like these soundtracks are in-universe or anything; if the dwarves all die, the soundtrack keeps singing on.

[Randomizer]

I was wondering, will the new location finder have a way of showing where candy and clowns are to be found?. That way when you embark you can be sure it is on the game map. There are types of HFS that are not always found on the game map.  There may even be new HFS in the big release.  I would like a way to guarantee it is all on the game map I choose.  A setting in the init files could be used to switch this feature on and off. 

I am aware you are almost guaranteed to have a least a little candy but presence of the other HFS is rare and reduced to dumb luck.

[Urist McSadist]

1.Are we going to see adventure mode ai improvements before magic? Would be nice if there were some consequences for killing the king.
2.Will we get fort mode mounts, and if so how would they be implemented?

[voliol]

The new tracks are lovely! When are we going to be hearing this music? I had been under the assumption that Dabu's four tracks were one for each season, but then where do the rest fit in? Is it like in Simcity where the music advances as your fortress/city grows? "Strike the earth" could be a first-year track, going by it's name, but the others don't give me this vibe.

[Schmaven]

The new tracks are lovely! When are we going to be hearing this music? I had been under the assumption that Dabu's four tracks were one for each season, but then where do the rest fit in? Is it like in Simcity where the music advances as your fortress/city grows? "Strike the earth" could be a first-year track, going by it's name, but the others don't give me this vibe.

Not the official soundtrack, but Simon Swerwer has a number of good tracks on his soundcoud if you wanted to hear some of his music: https://soundcloud.com/simonswerwer

[Paaaad]

Are Kobolds supposed to be able to come up with and build their own Musical Instruments? Because I just raided and razed a Kobold cave and got two separate kinds- the Tukududolgis and the Jadasraynkus. Definitely look like Kobold names, and they came from one of their caves...

[PatrikLundell]

@Randomizer:
An embark of size 3*3 or larger is guaranteed to have at least one spire, although a bug can cause some the spires not to show up in practice when using a reduced number of layers (layer accounting is botched, so a spire that should reach a layer that's been removed won't appear at all, rather than reach the layer that replaces the removed one). It's probably less work to fix the bug than it is to add an embark site search criterion that accounts for the bug...

Given that HFS is procedurally generated, the only way to find the variant themes you happen to be looking for would be to make a DFHack script to search for them, as it would be extremely unlikely Toady would produce a HFS variant matcher as part of a potential site finder update.

[voliol]

Are Kobolds supposed to be able to come up with and build their own Musical Instruments? Because I just raided and razed a Kobold cave and got two separate kinds- the Tukududolgis and the Jadasraynkus. Definitely look like Kobold names, and they came from one of their caves...

They do have GENERATE_PERCUSSION_INSTRUMENTS in their entity raws so yeah. It's cool though, so thanks for pointing it out!

[Randomizer]

@Randomizer:
An embark of size 3*3 or larger is guaranteed to have at least one spire, although a bug can cause some the spires not to show up in practice when using a reduced number of layers (layer accounting is botched, so a spire that should reach a layer that's been removed won't appear at all, rather than reach the layer that replaces the removed one). It's probably less work to fix the bug than it is to add an embark site search criterion that accounts for the bug...

Given that HFS is procedurally generated, the only way to find the variant themes you happen to be looking for would be to make a DFHack script to search for them, as it would be extremely unlikely Toady would produce a HFS variant matcher as part of a potential site finder update.

predated myself

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In older versions of the game, demonic fortresses made of smooth slade could be found. These have been officially removed since the release of 0.40.01

[Toady One]

I was running a challenge with a no-aging hermit to discover every topic in existence, running a script to tell me how many topics have been discovered based on DFHack's df-structures information, and she's skipped out on "philosophy: propositional logic" and "engineering: models and templates" and gone straight to the "Research!" activity. What could have caused that to happen?

Had seen "Reserach!" before when setting all 312 (are there more?) topics to known.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395729#msg8395729

Huh, yeah, if they haven't gotten into them over a long period of time, maybe those two are (buggily) inaccessible?  I guess we'd know if anybody has ever researched them post world gen.

Something that's bugging me a little: Why are the underground crops the ones effected by the changing seasons while the surface crops- the ones actually exposed to the changing weather and temperature- aren't? The conditions underground are really quite stable- hence wine cellars and root cellars.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395781#msg8395781
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395815#msg8395815
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8395819#msg8395819

Yeah, as the replies say, this was related to how the 2D version worked.

How much warning do you plan to give before the release of the new version? Will there be an official release date scheduled, or will you just drop it on us like in previous releases?

Ha ha, there'll have to be some lead time with this one!  Many more moving pieces than normal, especially for the initial launch.

Will premium introduce a solution to Necromancer Entropy - the fact that given enough time undead take over the world? I believe Tarn previously mentioned vampire hunters of the Van Helsing ilk, possibly grouping together into some kind of organizations. How are the odds for this looking right now? (This was stated in an interview with Blind, but not his most recent one, or maybe here, or in maybe in some other interview.)

I know this is technically an emergent gameplay feature rather than a bug, but it's not one that actually enables any fun gameplay (except for roleplaying Zombie Apolcalypse), and it seems you guys have acknowledged that it's a problem. Thanks for reading.

Adding new whole features pre-launch is getting tougher, but if it's not handled for premium, it'll be handled as we get back into the game's core development.  We do consider it a pretty serious problem, rather than a feature.

1: Once a creature is parsed from the raws, How do you represent it in memory(I'm ok with technical details)?
2: On the dev page, Automatons were mentioned as a possible feature. When could we reasonably expect their first appearance?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396314#msg8396314
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398202#msg8398202
Obsidian Short Sword (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398297#msg8398297

1 was answered by the replies, and I can't really add anything to the xml there!
2 - yeah, myth/magic is a likely candidate, although it's quite chunky as we know, so only some stuff will come in on the first pass.  If we're talking about purely mechanical non-magical automatons that are more like a curiosity or wtvr, then I have no idea!  Seems dwarfy though.

1. Have you ever considered restrictions/segmentation on books in libraries ever and would you possibly consider it in the future, such as restricting individual books and/or a library on a certain topic like astrology in one library and chronicles in another

2. In regards to religions, will it be possible in the future for a player to found them, especially in terms of adventure mode, having a adventurer founding a religious cult, a splinter off from a already exisiting one or becoming leadership and making changes to an existing one.

3. At somepoint in the future will costal erosion be considered as a feature, so overtime the map changes, sea level rises, islands shifting together or breaking off. Sea volcanos forming islands. So sites might end up becoming lost under the ocean or burried in magma. I know its a big feature to implement but has it ever been thought about or considered before. As well as biome changes as the enviroment changes, like the expansion of a desert over time due to desertification or a forest becoming colder over time due to enviromental changes.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396575#msg8396575
AvolitionBrit (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396602#msg8396602
Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396603#msg8396603
Nordlicht: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396604#msg8396604
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396607#msg8396607
AvolitionBrit (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8396612#msg8396612

1. I hadn't really thought about it, except maybe in terms of managing complaints around necromancy books making the whole fort go sour.  It seems like a reasonable and fun thing to do if you have enough books.

2. We have all the pieces we need here, because it happens in world gen, but as with several things world gen, it's just not in play yet.  Not sure when the next chance for it to come up is - we'd likely want there to be enough mechanics sitting around for it to be worthwhile, which might not be until we do the entity rewrite and fort start situations.

3. Map change generally is going to be a big part of the myth/magic release.  I'm not sure if we'll get to more natural processes at that time though!  We're quite mindful of sea erosion in any case, since houses keep falling into Puget Sound out here.

1. Will the Myth and Magic arc significantly affect the dynamics of personality?  Will there be a personality rewrite? This seems connected to both play modes, the villains and army arcs, as well as my question below. Curious about bay12's thinking on personality.

2. Will creatures' bodies or behaviors ever change over generations? I read that creatures do inherit both appearance and attributes. Does this produce an evolutionary effect currently? Do cultural customs change over time, or will they?

3. A gameplay question: During a conversation in adventure mode, some people have a "Sluggish" attitude toward me. What does that mean?

1. There's quite a bit there now.  It does get changed frequently, but it feels like we'll be focusing on other areas that haven't had nearly as much work.

2. There's not much evolution there now - the models need to be better individually, and there aren't any changes at the population level at all if I remember.  Customs and things'll change, but only after we get the framework rewritten.  Of course, the religions that come about during world gen count toward changing customs currently, and books currently can change the values of a civilization if I recall.  But there should be more.

3. Their agitation level is -75 or less.  -25 or less is "inactive".  "Sluggish" is probably a bit harsh or loaded.

I’ve been reading the wiki, and I’ve got a few questions.

It says that all towns start out as hamlets and then turn into towns under the right circumstances.  What are those circumstances?

Also, it says that, for towns, of of +, *, #, or ? is used according to the population.  For hamlets, are the distinctions between Æ and æ, and = and ? also based on population?  If so, what are the required populations?

Also, is the list of population ranges for each level of town in the wiki correct?  If so, what determines whether a town with (for example) a population of exactly 1000 shows up as a + or a *?

Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8397618#msg8397618

I think Doorkeeper's reply handles this one entirely.

1. Will the advanced worldgen menu be in the initial Premium release?

2. What sort of timeline are you thinking of for the releasing the raws/info for modders to prepare for updating?

3. Last we've heard about the roadmap plans were you decided on doing Adventure mode later, and are unsure about Arena mode; what's your position on the Steam Workshop and Achievements, which were also in an uncertain place?

4. Will the advanced world gen menu be in the initial Steam release?

5. Will the layer-fog color be changed? Blue makes it look like everything is flooded, at least underground.

6. Might something like the dragon randomizer (ie constrained randomness definable in raws, so that random things can be made to match "archetypes") ever exist for plants, materials, entities, interactions/magic, or other things that end up controllable?

7. What's the lore for why necromancers need to breathe, despite conquering all the other bodily needs (eating/drinking/sleeping)?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8398372#msg8398372

1+4. Yeah, that part is done, pretty much the same as before.

2. There are a few more things I wanna do first, especially as it concerns making small tweaks instead of replacing whole files.  But it's pretty much how it is going to be I think.

3. We're still doing these, but I gather it might be after now?  Not 100% decided, but I recollect Steam Workshop ended up being more involved than we thought.

5. The issue was the border between subterranean and aboveground looking bad I think, and that being kind of annoying to handle.  But it's easy to make it all dark if you wanna change it.

6. Yeah, the dragon randomizer was supposed to be a prototype for being able to do that with everything - now with the editors on as close a horizon as the dragon randomizer, we'll see what comes first, but we're hoping to get to various middle grounds there.  Or we may end up in script land?  It's hard to say now.

7. So you can choke them to death, maybe...  I don't recall the level of thought that went into this.  But we didn't imagine them as totally completely dead.

How does the look menu work now? Is there a quick way of identifying different types of stone to designate for mining, without having to use the look menu? I know what everything is at a glance with the ASCIIs, I'm worried I'll get confused by the artwork when looking for ores, mineral types, and so on.

How back compatible is the new version going to be with the old keyboard shortcuts? My hands remember which buttons to press even if my brain doesn't. Watching Zach's video fills me with confused terror.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8399694#msg8399694
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8399770#msg8399770

Yeah, there are the colors and also a different wall image for ores/gems etc., so hopefully you won't run into trouble here.  We're still finalizing the ore image to make it even more clear.

And PatrikLundell's correct that keyboard shortcuts are going to change.  This became inevitable with WASD support, and also for general consistency reasons.

With the Steam release in mind;
- Have you considered giving Legends Mode a similar GUI overhaul?  (Possibly similar to the popular utility 'Legends Viewer')
- What about being able to use Legends Mode during Fortress Mode?
- Have you (and I suppose KitFox here) considered doing a promotional release several days before launch?  Give a pre-release copy to streamers and the like.

Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400021#msg8400021
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400924#msg8400924

- Yeah, as Putnam observed, we've changed it quite a bit.
- Mr Crabman's reply covers our thoughts here - pretty simple to implement, maybe/probably will, but it does mess with some things like vampires.
- There is a whole process being decided here, yeah.

- Why are demons only ever given the ampersand as their creature tile, whereas other procedurally-generated creatures like experiments, titans, and forgotten beasts are given random tiles?
- On a related note, why do demons have the same [DIFFICULTY] as forgotten beasts and titans, despite definitely being generally usually pretty harder?
- On a related note to that one, would it be possible for procedurally-generated creatures to have different [DIFFICULTY]s depending on their properties?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400097#msg8400097
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400935#msg8400935
BlueManedHawk (OP): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8401009#msg8401009

- ampersands are a traditional demon symbol from the roguelike genre.
- I think voliol handled this one - their creature defs aren't much different at the individual level.
- Yeah, it would make sense, especially while there are still ones that break apart in one hit or are otherwise unimpressive, and others have some uniquely nasty poisons and such.

¿will you take some kind of rest, or holidays, when the Steam version is launched?
I guess you'll addres the most worrying bugs but after that, I mean.

You talk about development in a really casual way, like it's no big deal, but I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of stressful moments and a lot more will come with the release. I love the game, but no game is worth its creators' wellbeing.

If it's not too personal, ¿Have you ever felt you abused yourself pushing a release or hunting a bug? Is it difficult to handle the community's expectations and constant "when when when" questions?

I dunno about rest.  It hasn't really come up yet, ha ha.  Though we have taken in the time to mess around with side projects (not so much since the steam stuff started, since we're on more of a schedule and other people are involved.)  It seems like a reasonable thing to do, and I might feel more urgent about it after experiencing whatever the launch is like.

I don't feel too put upon though.  As we know, the thing comes out when it comes out, and there's not much changing that, although we could certainly organize things better at times.  The community hasn't really ever been bad about this I think?  During the last long wait, things were pretty okay as I recall.

Why is the current default tileset nonsquare? If I remember correctly, there’s a square one in the files too.

Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8400928#msg8400928

Ziusudra answered this one.  A note: the text is still rectangular in premium, but the game play tiles are square.

I think I remember you saying that ncurses mode is going away. Is that true? If so, is it still necessary to support 80x25 screens? What are the new minimum tile dimensions that you are targeting for the UI? In other words, when you design a new menu/screen/dialog, what can you assume about how much screen space you have to work with?

The new GUI has a minimum of 116x46.  This is just to make the menus work etc., and even at 116x46 some things are very scrunched.  At some future point we might be able to bring back a reduced version to get us back to 80x25, but it feels very difficult to do so without just bringing back all of the things that are almost universal hated about the DF interface.

Will we be able to read the next part of Tales Foretold in the foreseeable future?

Zach's been playtesting.  Not sure when he'll have time to write another section.

If the release of the game generates enough money, would you be willing to hire additional programmers. This could dramatically increase the speed at which you will be able to move through your update/feature timeline. This would also free you up to do more work on the design end of the game which would benefit everyone.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402018#msg8402018
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402052#msg8402052
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402059#msg8402059
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402060#msg8402060

Ha ha, as clinodev says, the replies here have captured the general vibe, and now that general vibe includes at least some possibilities that aren't all No.  I'm not sure if it dramatically increases speed on the core stuff, but it does allow us to keep things cleaner and nicer and broader, most likely, things I normally can't focus on as easily.

will adventure mode exclusive creatures/items still be graphically ready by the release date? I want to import a fortress that already has divine metal once the steam release happens.

Secondly will saves work seamlessly between steam and the free version? For instance if i wanted to port a save from the steam release to the free release to do something on adventure mode, and then port it back after i am done, will that be possible without issue?

Finally, on the topic of adventure mode, will we be able to actually customize our character instead of randomizing it?

Paaaad: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402346#msg8402346
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402353#msg8402353
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402403#msg8402403
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402414#msg8402414
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8402425#msg8402425
(and so forth, long conversation)

So yeah, old saves aren't compatible, if that was part of the question.  The save restructuring is the main reason (no mods/raws in saves), though it became strained when we made some necessary technical changes to trees as well, oddly enough - might have been able to survive one of those, but not both.  Saves will be able to move between steam/classic with no issue.  However, classic also will not have adventure mode.  Adventure mode is going to come out for steam and classic at the same time.

However, the general question here is also complicated because divine metals exist in fort mode now.

I'm not sure what you mean for customization - like the appearance?  There's a lot of customization generally.  For physical appearance, it was complicated by how the 'genetics' were stored, but if I recollect, we were just going to put a warning that any future adv babies we might add would not look like their parent at all if you take advantage of full customization, if we can't get around the wrinkles.  But we haven't done any of that yet.

Quick question about new soundtracks(more about dwarven language). Since some of them contains dwarven lyrics does it mean that we have this language for the rest of the dev process? I mean there was a forum topic where some baydweller tryed to make dwarven into actual language and as far as I remember he gave up because you said before that languages will be procgenerated too.

Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403046#msg8403046

Yeah, it's possibly as Mr Crabman says - the lower randomness settings would gravitate toward our default setting.  For instance, if we go with the plan to include a setting with the editor world (which serves as an example of how the formats work etc.), the current in-game language can remain a part of that even as new complications and randomness are added in.  When we get to grammar etc., it might be complicated to keep all words exactly as they are, but this isn't a huge issue I think.

I was wondering, will the new location finder have a way of showing where candy and clowns are to be found?. That way when you embark you can be sure it is on the game map. There are types of HFS that are not always found on the game map.  There may even be new HFS in the big release.  I would like a way to guarantee it is all on the game map I choose.  A setting in the init files could be used to switch this feature on and off.

I am aware you are almost guaranteed to have a least a little candy but presence of the other HFS is rare and reduced to dumb luck.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403231#msg8403231

Yeah, we used to have more types and it would matter, but now a 3x3 embark is all you need.

1.Are we going to see adventure mode ai improvements before magic? Would be nice if there were some consequences for killing the king.
2.Will we get fort mode mounts, and if so how would they be implemented?

1. There'll be a lot of changes, though I'm not sure exactly which sorts you mean.  But the villain and army stuff are gonna see some alterations for sure.
2. Still not entirely on team mounted dwarves here.  Not sure it would need to be implemented much different from the war dogs and such, although generally that could be better.

The new tracks are lovely! When are we going to be hearing this music? I had been under the assumption that Dabu's four tracks were one for each season, but then where do the rest fit in? Is it like in Simcity where the music advances as your fortress/city grows? "Strike the earth" could be a first-year track, going by it's name, but the others don't give me this vibe.

Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403188#msg8403188

It's pretty cool! So in terms of where they play during the game, there are different settings for every track.  One depends on the caverns being opened, one plays only after the second year, one is a first year track.  Strike the Earth plays when you first embark, and then gets mixed in with the others afterward.  And so forth; there's a raw format for this so you can change it if you like.

Are Kobolds supposed to be able to come up with and build their own Musical Instruments? Because I just raided and razed a Kobold cave and got two separate kinds- the Tukududolgis and the Jadasraynkus. Definitely look like Kobold names, and they came from one of their caves...

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8403235#msg8403235

Yeah, ha ha, the entity txt has them into percussion.

[WereDragon]

What do you mean divine metal in fortress mode? How will we be able to get our hands on it? Will we be able to get different variations?