Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ror6ax]

Following Df talk with Brian Bucklew - have you played Caves of Qud?
What do you think of it's UI?
Have you seen new UI being developed - https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/ho140h/ui_design_of_the_game_caves_of_qud_finished/ ?
Any thoughts on this top-bottom approach vs DF's apparently opposite approach - from details to the wide picture.

Yes, Toady's mentioned playing Caves of Qud many times before.

Interested in what you mean, can you give an example? I don't think we've seen much of Toady's thoughts on the actual design process. Devlogs have been incredibly dull for this dev arc, only updating when there's pretty pictures to show (probably reflects what Toady says about not enjoying the process). However he started from a point of view making the overall experience better for a player starting up the game and the steps they go through to get into the game. Although little has been mentioned on how that actually works yet. Not sure if that's what you mean by "details".

I've just seen the most recent email update - 'Activity Zones & The Sanctum of Lunch' and it's a good example of what I mean. Activity zones are exactly like they used to be, just with a new skin on them. New UI of Caves of Qud actually changed the way you interact with the game. It all started from a mockup of an entire game being finished (seen in the link) and now devs are implementing it.

From what I can observe, DF premium is being done in an opposite way - atomic chunks of game like one menu or one mode(zone mode) are being re-made in graphical mode but absolutely identical in terms of UX.

We won't get the "zones, designations and stockpiles are the same thing but with different controls" problem fixed, we'll just have it manifest slightly less because of mouse control. To fix this problem you'd have to make a generic "zone" UI which would somehow have all 3 types represented in it, which does not seem to be happening. Military screen won't be any better if we add icons to it - you'd still need to make 25 different actions to get military going and one mistake will undo all your progress. Only a UX change would mitigate military screen.

Similar with icons - as much as I like art we're seeing, we can't really tell if it's going to mix well until we see it all on the screen together. It may end up being lots of beautiful items forming a complete epilepsy inducing mess - or bleak unreadable mess - or cartoony mess.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Probably a limitation of implementing a new UI for a completed game, compared with one which has several decades of development left. As I said, there's been very little actual information on development in the devlogs so we really have no idea of anything they're doing besides adding a tileset (which you don't need to use and most people will likely replace with the tileset of their choice just like we've always done).

Perhaps the weird devlogs are something to do with with what Toady mentioned about Kitfox wanting to announce certain milestones at specific times so he can't just chat freely like he used to. How far in advance was the new Qud design philosophy announced and explained in detail?

Don't expect them to rewrite the game from scratch though. That would be suicide to try right before releasing on Steam.

[ror6ax]

Probably a limitation of implementing a new UI for a completed game, compared with one which has several decades of development left. As I said, there's been very little actual information on development in the devlogs so we really have no idea of anything they're doing besides adding a tileset (which you don't need to use and most people will likely replace with the tileset of their choice just like we've always done).

Perhaps the weird devlogs are something to do with with what Toady mentioned about Kitfox wanting to announce certain milestones at specific times so he can't just chat freely like he used to. How far in advance was the new Qud design philosophy announced and explained in detail?

Don't expect them to rewrite the game from scratch though. That would be suicide to try right before releasing on Steam.

As long as military screen gets a tad better, I'm ok with anything including ASCII mode. Just curious as to how DF is being developed.

[PatrikLundell]

There are two different things in play here when it comes to the UI and the Premium release:
1. Brand new "skin" to go with the Premium tile set (with the intention to get the corresponding functionality for Classic and Premium with the character tile set). This part is basically "just" a skin over all of the UI screens, with re-scaling, different widgets (e.g. sliders), mouse support, etc. on top of the same functionality. This is a lot of work, even without touching the underlying functionality.
2. UI (or UX?) improvements where hard to understand/confusing/bad/... functionality is modified to work better. This would, presumably, be integrated into the work when 1. hits those particular parts, but it makes sense to start to iron out the "purely cosmetic" principles before tackling the combination of presentation and functionality. The military screens and stockpiles have been mentioned as candidates for underlying functionality rework. As with everything DF, we can expect that the list of candidates is significantly longer than the amount of time available for work on them, so most of it will probably get cut. Also note that 1. has to be done for every single screen in DF as you can't cut any screen (you can work faster and sloppier, but that's about it).

Overhaul everything? Sure. Just allocate the next 5 years to that effort (and Toady may well tire and give up on DF before that, given that he seems to find the task about as stimulating as I would).

[ror6ax]

Sure. Just allocate the next 5 years to that effort

There's no need to be sarcastic. I was asking a question in good faith with only the best intensions.
UX is a part of the game, important one at that. Some games have 3 if statements for logic + good UI and as a consequence are enjoyed by millions.
DF can simulate psychology of necromancer search for life purpose in perfect detail, but if a user can't pick items to encrust they won't be bothered to stay long enough to witness all the greatness the game has to offer. What's the point of crafting weapons if you can't reliably make dwarfs get to use said weapons?
Treating UX as an irritating chore is self-defeating behaviour that is very popular among professional developers. I know because I see it happen every day. It's also been proven (long ago) an anti-pattern that needs to be fixed in the entire industry.

[PatrikLundell]

The 5 year statement is, unfortunately, only partially sarcastic, as it's probably not too far off from what it actually would take to do a complete overhaul. Only a small number of the worst cases can be addressed before the Premium release. DF has several cases of huge stacks of used dinner plates that suddenly have to be taken care of (bugs is another one, besides the UX), in a crash happening when DF changes from a "join the developer on a ride" to a commercial project (subjects hoping Steam will reward their donations with some access to desired programs will consider DF a commercial project, regardless of what others, including Toady, think).

There are some reasons why many professional programmers find UX a chore:
- It's something they're not good at, and know they aren't, and it doesn't feel good to do a mediocre job and know you can't do better.
- It's something everyone and their cat can have (widely conflicting) opinions of, and they tend to voice those opinions loudly and with certainty (we've seen a bit of that in the tile set thread). Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
- It can be an actual chore, in that you have to do essentially the same thing over and over again, and if any improvement is made, you'll have to go back and retrofit that into all the work made previously.
- The qualities needed to be a good programmer are completely different from the qualities needed to make a good UX (just like the qualities needed to be a good plumber are completely different from those required to take care of the bookkeeping). This is basically the first point reiterated.

In the ideal world you'd have UX specialists working together with programmers to produce the UX.

Edit:
Just to prove that anyone can have UX opinions, I'll add a comment on the cross posted zone images:
I find that a clear indication of what items tool tips refer to are missing in the images. A little gem at the slider indicating the position is a bit weak, and it ought to be an line/item selection indication as well (e.g. through a different color).

[therahedwig]

Well, the bigger problem that people who don't program UI stuff don't realize about UI stuff is that it is actually hard to program. The main culprit here is that input is different on different systems, and while a lot of problems have been solved in the past, everyone who makes a new UI toolkit (like toady is doing, to keep ascii compatibility), needs to solve each of those problems manually. You have things like some mice only reporting button-presses but no button-releases, hover states being hard to track, having incorrect timing, etc.

On top of that, from the talks, it seems DF is going to have a responsive UI, which is something that the majority of games aren't doing (though, that might also be that unity doesn't do responsive UI well? Not sure).

Like I said, I am pleasantly surprised DF is going to become more simcity like in it's UI, because with my experience of UI stuff getting to this point is already really hard.

Furthermore, the zones stuff you are talking about isn't just interface, but it is also something that directly influences how the AI works with these elements. So it would require another rewrite on top of the functioning UI framework being build. EDIT: and, come to think of it, will destroy backwards compatibility.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yeah, Toady's mentioned wanting to change workshops into zones some time in the future, but he's not going to do that until a big rewrite which will break backwards compatibility anyway (Mythgen for example).

[Bumber]

From what I can observe, DF premium is being done in an opposite way - atomic chunks of game like one menu or one mode(zone mode) are being re-made in graphical mode but absolutely identical in terms of UX.

There's this part of the 08/21/2020 devlog:

There's currently a supply/population readout at the top, and you can access the stocks screen directly from there - stocks are not a screen anymore, but a large window that comes down, with visual contents more or less like the embark item above. Instead of adding and subtracting as in embark, buttons for recenter/view/forbid/dump/melt/hide options are available, both for groups and individual items. And it has text filtering now!

We're hoping to continue to bring screens hidden in the depths out to the main screen as possible (the Stocks used to be found at 'z' and then some tabs over), allowing you to remain more present in the main play area as in most modern strategy games. I think the world map ('c') will probably still be its own screen, due to the world map display, but we'll see about the rest!

[TrevorBOB9]

Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?
2. I don’t know how you feel about slightly personal questions, but is there any particular significance behind the name “Tarn”? I’ve never heard of it anywhere else.

[Bumber]

1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?

I very much doubt it, given the expected development time of DF versus the period Nintendo, et al, support their consoles.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?

Tarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.

(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).

[clinodev]

Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?

From what we've been told, Kitfox isn't touching the code at all, now or later. The closest they come is I gather they're handling the contracts of the artists, who have had a lot of input recently just due to being DF fans with ready access. I imagine Tanya X. Short and Tarn talk shop as well, as friends and leaders in academic procedural game design. They're just publishing it, handling things Tarn doesn't want to handle, not buying it and handing it over to another studio.

I wrote and erased a big thing on why you don't want to run DF on your Switch or most (any?) other console, but this isn't really the place for it. Instead let me encourage you to look into one of the in-browser terminal emulators like ArmokWebServices or DFPlex. They probably will do what you want, DF on a small portable device, and do much better by running DF itself on an inexpensive remote server instance. Likewise there's a iOS app on the Apple store which does a similar thing, very well, as I understand it.

[voliol]

Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?

Tarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.

(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).

While babynamescube and themeaningofthename claims that origin of the name, the Norwegian statistics bureau says there are 0 Tarns in Norway (you can search for names on their site). Isn't the true origin just the noun "tarn" meaning "pond, small lake"?

(There are also 0 people with the first name Tjern/Tjörn, which is Norwegian for "tarn", so I doubt the origin of the name is Norwegian immigrants changing their names by direct translation. It technically could still be Norwegian somehow, but my bet is on some conjuring of information along the line, and then sites copying another without facts-checking.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

Hey Tarn
1. I know even after Steam releases Kitfox is going to be very busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. But is it possible that a successful release might lead to them or a different developer porting the Steam release to the Switch or other consoles?

Tarn is going to be busy with fixes, improvements, keeping up with updates, etc. Not Kitfox. So not very likely at all.

(Tarn. Norse origins. Because Toady is a Viking. Maybe).

While babynamescube and themeaningofthename claims that origin of the name, the Norwegian statistics bureau says there are 0 Tarns in Norway (you can search for names on their site). Isn't the true origin just the noun "tarn" meaning "pond, small lake"?

(There are also 0 people with the first name Tjern/Tjörn, which is Norwegian for "tarn", so I doubt the origin of the name is Norwegian immigrants changing their names by direct translation. It technically could still be Norwegian somehow, but my bet is on some conjuring of information along the line, and then sites copying another without facts-checking.)

"Lake" is a fairly reasonable name. Craig after all, just means "Rock". But yeah, seems to be rare.