Can you say how difficult it would be to add new world sizes? I find 'Small' (65x65) is too small to support a high number of civs & interesting events, while Medium (129x129) gets super laggy after a mere ~200 years. Maybe a 90x or 95x?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099565#msg8099565DG:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099684#msg8099684Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099699#msg8099699PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099709#msg8099709For lag specifically, the size doesn't have much impact by itself, as you say - the historical figure and site cap will have a lot more of an effect, and you should be able to lower those in the parameters in order to make the 129x129 more tolerable. However, yeah, I understand that getting the right density look you are seeking would make a 90x90 ideal. So, the issue is as mentioned in the comments, when I've looked at this in the past, there are a few places that depend on the map having dimensions in the formation 2^x + 1. This isn't hyper-crucial, just a convenience, but there are enough occurrences of this that it has been too difficult to change on a lark. It'd have to be a project, so it works best with the map rewrite, which'll see world maps changed beyond this.
How long do you think it would take to remake the current build (at the time of answering) of DF from scratch if you knew everything you know now?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099636#msg8099636Yeah, it does depend a bit on the spirit of the question, and what sort of resources etc. But naively, hmm, I dunno. I wouldn't remember all the features at this point, but forgetting that... seven, eight years? But more maybe. A lot of the work has been revision, and that would shave off years of time (from 16-18 depending on how you are counting), but there are things like the art/instrument/etc. generators that were made one time and haven't really been revised since, and redoing those from scratch would take about the same amount of time, minus a little bit of thinking. And there's a ton of stuff like that, and it adds up. But if you use the old game as reference, or etc., it probably gets a bit faster, and a well-organized group of people dedicated to cloning might shave some more time off, depending on what they have as reference.
I'm not sure - the one angle I can think of is creatures with spheres. They should get the secret
I don’t think this is actually true. Modding secrets and various megabeasts, demons, and other creatures with spheres and power and supernatural tags, they don’t actually ever write down or teach or use as bribes their secret knowledge or even ever seem to use their secrets to do anything, so I don’t think they get the secret knowledge at all. Should this go in the bug tracker? It might be a moot point, since the magic system will get reworked anyway after the steam premium release...
Even if they get it (which still seems possible, since it just goes through the list by sphere, and there's nothing special about the generated secrets here as far as I know), they might not be placed in the proper instructor/etc. lists, so there are a few ways it could go wrong. But yeah, it's probably not a huge priority, especially since changing it uncarefully will probably cause a demon-led necromancer explosion that kills the world.
Will you ever fix morale system in adventure mode, which currently forces most of NPC, including military and nobility, to run around aggressor and not respond the player's aggression with weapon? Honestly, it makes almost impossible to fight someone in versions after 0.34. You can just start the game as peasant and come to the capital, trying to hit with bronze knife High lady-vampire with over 9000 victims and she with her dozens of retinue and military guards will just try to run from the player, leaving her throne and treasures to single psycho... Not to mention poor peaceful bandits, of course.
Bumber:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099966#msg8099966High_priest_of_Ru (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8099968#msg8099968Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8100080#msg8100080Are cave crocodiles based on the "sewer alligator" urban legends?
As I recollect, they came about because of how the old 2D version worked, with the underground river that you hit, with its seasonal floods and farming. That had a Nileish vibe for us, and the cave crocodile is a natural result. If we even thought that much. You've seen some of the things we put underground.
I don't play with graphics usually, but I always swap the curses tileset for a more pleasing to my eye ASCII-ish set (Taffer set usually) and a pleasant colour scheme that suits my monitor better than vanilla.
I assume there's a chance that Premium development is going to include big changes that will, for the first time, make even non-graphical tilesets no longer "plug-and-play" with the new release. Are you going to be releasing anything (whether a set of guidelines or a test version when the game is ready and started beta testing) for people who make such tilesets to get started on updating their sets, or am I going to have to switch to Curses if I want to play on day 1?
Yeah, I mean I'll buy the premium version anyway so will play the graphics version too of course, but I imagine I'll want to turn them off fairly soon. (At least in fortress mode anyway. Excited for non-crashing graphical Adventurer).
I'm not sure at this point what the roll-out later on looks like, and it'll still be some time I expect before we turn our attention away from basic graphics conversion to the broader picture. There was some talk about getting some mods up prior to release, possibly, though I'm really not sure what will be feasible. I don't know that non-graphical tilesets will be broken, though -- the Classic DF ASCII set will still work, and it's still set up the same way. But yeah, if something happens with fonts and the format of the vanilla ASCII has to be updated, that info can certainly be released publicly beforehand, which is more difficult to manage with the graphical set.
Hi guys! A question about necromancy, I have a world without towers (and Necromancer I suppose). Could that arise during fortress/adventure normal games in years?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8101660#msg8101660I wouldn't expect anything interesting to happen over years of play in that save, if there are no towers or necromancers. We don't have new slabs being created by the gods post world gen still.
Has there been any talk about steam trading cards, custom chat emoticons, or profile backgrounds being available for the steam release?
The trading cards came up, and I vaguely recall that part at least was part of what Steam wanted. And I recall them having some other requirements about images and things. So I'd expect to see some of this, but I'm not sure about specifically what we'll have, since we'll likely be doing this part later on in the process.
How will images for procedural creatures be handled in the steam version? The image would have to be assembled from different body parts of varying sizes. Will we have just a generic procedural creature image?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103037#msg8103037MrWiggles:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103638#msg8103638Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103661#msg8103661PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103679#msg8103679Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103700#msg8103700etc.
We're still in the early stages on this. We'd like to try the fancier stuff, and have some test images - since our test dwarf worked using assembly, it seems promising. But we're not able to commit to anything we haven't shown yet, since unknown issues could crop up.
How often do you take suggestions from the suggestions section into consideration?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103021#msg8103021Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8103037#msg8103037The comments here cover it - we read them, take notes on the general implied issues as well as any specifics that seem promising, and then revisit them before the big pushes. For smaller stuff, we have a different file and address those oftentimes along with bugs. We're in a weird time now with the Steam shift, so we didn't get to much, but the next Steam/Classic release should see various changes that will have taken a lot of the suggestions into consideration, both from the forum and the two more recent threads on new players and stress. Some of that may happen in the parallel bug-fix releases as well, though I need to be careful due to the potential interface changes.
Sorry if this has been asked before but are you planning to remove the restriction that dwarves need orthogonal access to construction sites in order to build there? They can already build diagonally, so it seems weird to require that they be able to stand orthogonally.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104251#msg8104251Bumber:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104260#msg8104260kaijyuu:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104282#msg8104282It has been many years since I looked at this, though I suspect kaijyuu's comment about cave-ins is a reason. The diagonal issue with the grid have always been unsatisfying, and I'm not sure if a diagonal cave-in support change would open a whole new can of worms.
Alongside the graphics upgrade, will the Steam/Itch release include the relative size of creatures being visually displayed?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104369#msg8104369madpathmoth (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104382#msg8104382Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104386#msg8104386madpathmoth (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104392#msg8104392Manveru Taurënér:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104422#msg8104422PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104514#msg8104514Just on the visual side, we're currently look at 96px and 64px tall as a limit. This is enough to make a dragon or colossus imposing and obviously different from a dwarf, but not enough to tease apart differences between all creatures while respecting readability/etc. of the pictures. It's true that this isn't strictly enough, and that some sort of additional information would help, but I don't think we'll be doing it with the tiles.
The latest dev log (03/11/2020) is probably rather cryptic for those who haven't seen your lastest FotF replies (or possibly info in channels I haven't seen).
If I understand it correctly, you're aiming at having menus and other text one size (or more than one?) and game tiles another, to allow for the larger tiles that are in development without blowing up the size of the text. I guess it might also allow for graphics to be zoomed without affecting text?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104839#msg8104839Schmaven:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104862#msg8104862voliol:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8104866#msg8104866Yeah, that's right, though I'm not strictly sure what sort of zooming stuff we'll have using the new tiles. But they are completely decoupled from the text now. Hopefully the dev logs after this were more useful!
Kind of a big request, but it's been bothering me for a long time, and pretty much all of my attempts at science (particularly worldgen-related science) have turned up fruitless. You did mention a few in your last reply, but a full explanation would be really handy.
Any chance of giving an explanation of each of the personality traits and values, both in gameplay and how they impact the unfolding of events in worldgen?
Ahh... that's a bit beyond what I can easily do in here, as doing the searches, interpretation and transcription for 80+ elements would easily take a day or more. As usual, there'll likely be a few surprising ones that aren't well-known by the community, but also they'll be way underutilized compared to what players often think in many cases, because most of the decision-making just isn't that complicated currently.
Will the premium release allow entities to appear to move smoothly between tiles?
I can't commit to that now or even say that it is likely. We're thinking about it, and there are various issues, but it is possible.
Just listened to your interview on Literate Gamer. Very interesting.
https://literate-gamer.zencast.website/episodes/172
You mention that you may need to dial back zombie invasions because vanilla worlds invariably die 600 years in. That's fair enough I think.
But are you able to make that moddable at all? Like a slider of zombie aggression or something? I ask because I'm having the opposite issue in my own modded worlds and I think it's mostly a result of having a whole load of anti-zombie civs (pretty much everyone except goblins), some of which are way too powerful. I fear that necromancers who don't try as hard won't ever get a chance to build a decent patch of evil, let alone take over the world.
Sure, that's pretty much entirely my problem and I should balance everything else to give the necros more of a fighting chance, but was just wondering what potential options you might add are.
I don't have a concrete plan yet, so I don't know what the levers are going to be. I can make a note to keep this in mind.
What tileset stuff will be possible in premium version, in comparison to what community can offer (TWBT, DFHack)? Would appreciate a table if you know at this point. If not, save this question for a future post.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106150#msg8106150voliol:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106168#msg8106168It's a bit early for a table, but I also don't have a list of TWBT/DFHack features you have in mind. We're just going to be showing graphical features as they are confirmed, so I won't be able to outpace the dev logs in terms of reveals in any case.
A picqued bit i noticed, is that child-care got a unexpected special mention or rather the erm, lack of non-motherly child care/maternal instincts to direct the babies away from throwing them into spartan like dog-pit regimes until they grow to adulthood tooth & nail or try to deliberately/'accidentally' commit infanticide around large areas with spikes.
With kidnapping plots, people retrieval missions and insinuated possible places to drop off your babies like the kobold egg lair, will this likely create a kind of sub-focus target for villianous behaviours? Stealing someone's child to exort their parents later etc.
There's that i understand a considerable wealth of community suggestions made out of interest on the topic. Besides some likely faults when it comes to pass like does the dwarf carry away eggs, drag behind itself non-baby like larvae grub, or carry a baby that is 10x the dwarf's current size like a elephant-person? But those are mostly abtract things.
therahedwig:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106193#msg8106193Yeah, as therahedwig mentioned, we were already leaning this way, and just didn't get through with our fortress implementation of plots. The plan is to pick that work back up when the Steam dust settles and we are doing the premagic army stuff.
If you drain water into the underworld and make mud, cave moss grows in it. You can also grow crops too. However, trees and plants will never grow, even if you mod them to give them the same layer tokens as demons. How come? Is this just an edge case you never expected, or is it intended?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106562#msg8106562Yeah, it is using a function that checks the established populations for trees, which are set up when you embark. That layer of population code is ancient and weird, sadly, and doesn't adapt to anything at all once the fort starts, aside from tracking some numbers for animals. Not sure all of what I'll get to with the map rewrite.
Will there ever be any big repercussions for killing off nobles, like investigation or punishment by the player civ.
Will there ever be any use for ruler type nobles like the barron? a political system? Things like embargos, tariffs, military aid and treaties with stipulations other than the elve's tree quotas.
Currently, there isn't much of a reason to keep many of the nobles around and I just want to know if there will be in the future.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106413#msg8106413FantasticDorf:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8106585#msg8106585The comments more or less address it, but yeah, it's a way off in the development notes, but more extensive and proper use of political positions, perhaps even to the point of usefulness, is in there. Currently as a post-magic thing when we restructure societies.
How are you planning to tackle the necromancer visitors bug? Just removing them altogether or by fixing the game-breaking parts of their behaviour and still allowing them to visit? (Secretly or otherwise, not sure if their openness is a separate bug).
clinodev:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108213#msg8108213JesterHell696:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108226#msg8108226EternalCaveDragon:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8108309#msg8108309The sheer volume of necromancer and undead lt visitors is purely unintended. Correcting that would be a start -- given the way they are chased off in world gen, they should not be open visitors. People have never responded consistently to night creatures, but they aren't meant to be cheerfully accepted, aside from the new humanoid experiments, who have a plausible story of woe. Of course having new types of infiltration etc. would be fun. If it's like world gen, they should even be able to be migrants, staying in your fort until they are discovered over aging issues, though the w.g. ones do tend to run off in to the wilds much earlier than vampires do. I don't have a problem with any of this as long as it doesn't get too far out of hand.
Are there any plans for expanding the animation of tiles? Similar to water flowing downstream or waves crashing on the beach in the current versions.
We have a few tests tiles here and there, but as with other (relatively) ambitious features we'll have to see how it turns out, and we won't be able to commit until we actually post stuff on the dev log, case-by-case.
Can you say if fixing Bins will make it in before Steam? The bugs related to Bins have been around for a while now; Is the issue complicated, or just never got to it?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112284#msg8112284PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112328#msg8112328Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8112537#msg8112537feelotraveller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8113373#msg8113373PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8113475#msg8113475For the bin issues that are left, it is probably halfway between being complicated and just being part of the list. Ongoing bin/storage issues are on our list(s) of things to look at again before the Steam/itch release.
What update arc will you be working on after the steam release? Will it finally be the myth and magic arc or something else?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8114448#msg8114448PatrikLundell's breakdown is correct. There are a few things to do, and then it'll be time. But it'll take some months post-Steam/itch before that begins certainly.
G'day all,
I've been a bit out of the loop so I was wondering if anyone could tell me:
Is there any consideration regarding having multiple z-levels rendered at once in the new graphical version (e.g. being able to view an entire mountain-side)
This is something I'd be excited to see.
Also:
Is the future map re-write planned to change how things are brought up and drawn on the screen during play, how the world map and structures are generated, or allow the player to expand the playable area. Perhaps somewhere between the three?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8115335#msg8115335kontako (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8115361#msg8115361It's been great following the recent progress of your work with Mayday and Meph! Thanks to all three of you for the recent pictures!
One thing that's come to mind is that this is probably the ideal time to consider any changes you might want to make to the mechanics behind workshops.
With the concurrent consideration being given to new players, I'm especially curious if you're thinking of regularizing the blocking tiles in magma workshops (or just making all their floors blocking,) and changing the dwarf killing workshops with their solid sides of impassable tiles (the Jeweler's workshop, its lesser partner the Bowyer's workshop, and any I might never have noticed)?
"Why won't they cut gems and why won't they haul my old jeweler's corpse?" is a constantly recurring new player question, and I can't imagine there was ever any reason for either solid wall, since neither interacts with machinery or liquids. Really the whole concept outside of pumps, machinery, magma workshops, etc., seems strangely freedom limiting, especially in light of the long term "workshop zone" plan.
therahedwig:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116480#msg8116480Yeah, the bench blockage is somewhat silly and doesn't serve much of a purpose. We've got the workshop images with their benches in the right spots, in any case, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to loosen that part up. It would be nice if they'd still try to walk around tables (and benches etc.), but that's a lesser priority I suppose.
1. I was just curious, how you are feeling personally about all the changes for the Premium releases? Is it nice to get into all this stuff that has been neglected for years or does it feel like a distraction from what you'd rather be doing? Are you needing to learn a bunch of new stuff to accomplish this? Is there anything you're hoping to get in that you're not sure will make it?
2. Maybe I've missed it but at this point does it seem like Premium is going to be a save-breaking update?
3. You're close to the US epicenter of the virus. How are things where you're living? Are you and your family ok?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116760#msg8116760Pillbo:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116870#msg81168701. It's been fun to see everything come together, and I'm enjoying the change of pace. Of course, my ultimate preference was being off and doing magic stuff and the sort of thing I'd been doing up until now, but this is good.
2. Yeah, who knows on the saves, in the end, but right now they are fine. We'd like to keep them intact, though we haven't hit the hard parts yet, when we by necessity must restructure how saves interact with mods and graphics.
3. We are okay so far. We've been staying inside since before the state-wide order came down, but there's always a risk getting groceries etc., and the US has hardly seen the worst of it yet. There's inadequate testing, but we suspect a few relatives had it so far (and recovered), and I just learned a few friends are also sick. People in the part of Washington where I'm at are taking things at least semi-seriously overall, so hopefully our curve etc. will be as alright as possible at this point.
Don't know if this has been asked already, but what do the "improved sieges" plan imply? Digging invaders? Tweaks to AI?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116760#msg8116760Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8116769#msg8116769https://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html in the Improved Sieges section, while ancient, is still pretty up to date, and includes those things. But yeah, the recent podcast and both comments included here about cover it. Would like them to be at least slightly clever and dangerous even for people that have been playing a while and who want that kind of experience.
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Topic: Future of the Fortress (Read 3136109 times)