Question about relationships.
As for now, if I'm not mistaken the dwarves only seem to build relationship with others when they are at a meeting hall or tavern, under the "Socialize" job. With the upcoming villain update and the rewrite of social interactions, will dwarves (or whatever race you are playing fort mode) be able to "chit chat" or interact with others while doing other stuff? (e.g. Hauling objects; building stuff; comming across others while going somewhere; While they raid sites; Train in the squads).
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8045390#msg8045390Generally, the socialization bugs/issues are a whole topic, and we've collected various matter on that and will do something there. Some of it will come with the current relationship rewrite, and some of it will come when we handle the stress/etc. stuff, which relates more to the pre-Steam release cleanup. We haven't decided yet how the latter is going to be structured (between what happens with the actual Steam release, and what happens in the bug-fix period before we start doing graphics coding and all that.)
Latest devlog (10/24/2019) again mentions the possibility of losing because officials are corrupted. Do you intend for that to be a hard "game over" type lose? For instance, I could still run the fort if those corrupted officials stick to only stealing away things occasionally but still follow my orders re; posting militia to keep goblins out. Say, they're only ignoring part of my orders, those that are counter to their own objectives. That would still be playable, theyd basically just be slightly more obstinate than usual.
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8045911#msg8045911Yeah, as PatrikLundell says, we're not quite settled on this yet, but we are definitely trying to avoid a hard "game over" in all situations, no matter how screwed up they get, at least to the point where you have one last hurrah (should you want to give it a shot - you could just retire.) People that are stealing stuff etc. will follow your orders generally. When they aren't, those'll be the times they are literally moving an artifact around, and if you see that with your own eyes, you should just be able to arrest them and handle it (without being penalized, since you'll know what to ask about - this is sort of a weird unavoidable meta-game aspect to this.)
I know the adventure mode party work for this release is more-or-less done, but here's something I never thought to ask that just occurred to me:
Are the pets in custom adventuring parties directly controllable? Or are they restricted to just following the P.C.s?
Pets are not directly controllable.
Can you explain what you meant with:
"The first part was to add some new per-character variables to every conversation - how much a person wants to stay, whether they are pleased with things, and how confident/dominant/composed they are feeling"
Does that maybe mean there will be less "it was inevitable/ it is terrifying" and more actual emotion in people's reactions while talking?
therahedwig:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047870#msg8047870Ha ha, yeah, sorry, therahedwig is correct in that a lot of that placeholder text is based on larger structural issues. We're just doing some basic conversation flow metering to make sure basic exploits won't be possible during interrogations etc., and to give the conversations slightly better feelings/exposition based on relationship status.
With artifact theft plots coming to Fortress Mode, will we get more options on how we store, protect, manage and/or display our artifacts? Right now it is easy to choose where in the fortress your artifact bed or mechanism lives, but a pain in the ass to get an artifact sock or toy axe exactly where you want it.
therahedwig:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047870#msg8047870Yeah - unless there's a bug I'm missing, therahedwig is correct that we've relatively recently corrected this by allowing you to use a pedestal or display case to get them exactly where you want them, and the witness/etc. system should make guards pretty effective even against citizen-thieves, if the location isn't too open.
So, I know creatures with a nature loving trait get a happy thought from seeing an animal, but do you think you have the time to let dwarves pet their animals? In general, a key characteristic of villains is that they cause a lot of stress in others. Is there any kind of balancing in terms of destressors you guys are planning?
DG:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047979#msg8047979therahedwig (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048112#msg8048112The adventurer party was petting the pets (in particular, when they weren't under player control), so as far as I know, dwarves are on the petting train already. However, it might not be visible anywhere in reports, and there isn't an associated thought, as I recall. So this could be brought into line with pet 'chat', perhaps.
There isn't a particular anti-villain stress plan, but as noted, the whole thing is up for a larger look.
2. You mentioned modifiers such as loyalty and love in how interrogation will work, does this mean our adventurers will finally be able to have friends and romantic interests to sate their needs for such things since those modifiers imply such relations will be possible?
3. With how easy it is to just loot valuables from warehouses in adventure mode in mind how effective do you think bribing NPCs to talk will be? I ask this as less scrupulous adventurers can easily procure a supply of goods to bribe people with from warehouses.
4. If our adventurer's use violence in interrogation in a town and word got out of that would they be penalized with a violent reputation still?
(note: 1. appears above, since it fit in with a another question)
2. Nope!
3. Generally, it's just not sensible yet and won't be -- the possessions are still not secured and we're not going to balance against that. We'll need to get proper guarding and a justice system at some point.
4. Yeah. Violence continues to be treated as a conflict incident in the same way as usual, with the same rep modifiers.
Will butchering sentient corpse bug solved in Villains Update?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047987#msg8047987DoorKeeper:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8047990#msg8047990Does this mean that dwarves can remarry and continue having children?
For that matter, will it be possible for people to adopt babies if their mother dies? Because this is one of the saddest things to watch in a game. I had one dwarf get depressed and just left her baby crawling around outside, calling, "Mama!..." It tears me up a bit thinking about it. For reals.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048008#msg8048008PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8048055#msg8048055Yeah, we haven't implemented it yet, but they should be able to remarry by the time the release is up.
We haven't done the adoption bit, but well, it's been on the radar for years, like a lot of things.
In the first iteration, will priests have duties they perform or is it limited to satisfying worshipers by occupying the position?
1. How much more do you think you will develop organizations such as religious orders, merchant companies and mercenary companies before the next release? To clarify will they have activities they do besides simply existing? And if so would these activities be seen in fortress mode only or also in adventure mode to some degree?
It depends - the release date is going to be determined by finishing the core villain stuff, and the rest will be done alongside with some dedicated time we are setting aside (Mondays, currently.) The release will balloon forever if we don't put some dampers on it, but we know a lot of people are more excited about this side of things, so we'll be adding little independent religion/guild/etc. pieces, and we'll get to some amount. Ideally, all pieces of the release could work this way, incrementally, but villains are really a tangle, and they don't work without a certain amount of completion. For religions, guilds, mercs, and merchants, we're just going to go on a log-by-log basis now rather than promising anything beforehand.
It was mentioned in the steam dev-blog:
"If you use the arrest power in a ridiculous fashion, you'll see your fort turn against you, whether there's a villain there or not"
Could you expand on this?
Assuming it creates some hostility between dwarves which are 'loyalists' and others which rebel, if said rebels win do we continue to control the fortress under their government?
Ha ha, yeah, it'll depend a lot on what the against-villain implementation ends up being. We've changed our mind a few times on that and it'll just get hashed out when we get there. Part of the issue is the possibility of tying it into continuing to play if you, for instance, lose in a siege vs. the goblins or otherwise - a rebellion might also be possible there (not saying we'll get to that this time, but we need to think about it.) When you're closer to a civil war state, it calls into question our whole "official will of the fortress" model for what the player is. Perhaps you'll need to pick a side, perhaps you'll just be the side that wins (and therefore perhaps have less control over what the sides do), we're still thinking about it.
Kobolds and snatchers always get stopped from stealing anything because someone immediately sees them and they leave or get killed. Will villains have some more sneaky way to steal stuff and do their dirty work? What's to stop someone from seeing the thief the moment they walk through a main hallway with artifact in tow, rendering them a hostile and initiating a great dwarven dogpile? If you've got some other system in mind for sneaky thievery, will kobolds and snatchers be able to make use of it?
A kobold is a kobold, while a turned fortress citizen could presumably conceal a smaller artifact and not be noticed, or might be noticed but not stopped (just noted for a witness report.) In the case where the citizen isn't leaving the map, they'll still need to do a handoff to somebody that is leaving the map, and this is also witness/stop worthy, but a little easier to control than an entire sneak-path is for the kobold. So, hopefully it'll be more interesting, and still somewhat stoppable (for instance, maybe a citizen taking an artifact on a pedestal is always considered 'theft' if there isn't a job attached -- that's still more manageable for a theft AI than an entire sneak-path, and is the kind of thing we're trying.)
Do villainous infiltrator agents show up as visitors or also as migrants?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8049206#msg8049206Generally, we're going to try it both ways. Coming as a migrant puts the agent under your control, since a citizen is bound to stay for years, so it's a cost the villain is paying (they can't use the agent elsewhere unless you expel them), though it does give them some advantages in that they are a little harder to spot and don't have to make a petition to stay at first.
SD: Ha ha, okay, I'll check it out.
Can a royal official that trusts you get you access to talk to the king, now that they can trust and be verbally sparred?
Is it possible, theoretically, to talk your way all the way up an organizational chart, befriending every member, so as to convince them all to leave you alone?
How much harder is it now to convince every ruler that peace is good?
Are people less likely to listen to value arguments of people they don't like? Can talking people around through the verbal "fights" make them more receptive to value changes as well?
Access is complicated, currently, in that it's really important in w.g., but we haven't committed to giving it a shot in adv mode since it'll be tricky to pull off, requiring new guard systems and so forth. But once we have that, that'll be the idea, working your way inward. But the physical space needs to be controlled much better for it to be meaningful - conversational controls (like refusing to talk) only work to some extent, especially vs. intimidation etc.
Befriending everybody: After you've been targeted in some way? The main reason to need to do this in adv mode would be because you've drawn attention to yourself by aggressively acting counter to their interests. You don't really get on their radar as an adventurer otherwise, unless you have an artifact or something maybe. So you'd sort of have to work yourself all the way back from being hated, I guess, and it's not something I've focused on, canceling plots midstream. So I'd need to do a bit more, and it's sort of an edge case.
Without the access changes, philosophical debate with rulers hasn't really changed much. The new patience stuff should find its way out that far, which would make it a little harder, and yeah, that would also depend on the more permanent relationship traits. Just because there are lots of them, the new conversation/relationship variables won't see a lot of action out in older conversation options, but the basic patience meter should have some impact.
Why did you remove the AMBUSHER token from goblin civilizations?
Formally, is there any difference between a member of your party and a regular companion? If yes, is there any way to move one from the other?
Can you acquire pets beyond your starting party?
Are adventurer villainy and fortress villainy still on the table? What kind of plots are we expected to be able to carry out?
Do pilgrims physically move around to holy cities post world-gen?
Is your fort able to become a holy city? (For instance, if you're one of two cities with a religion and one gets razed) Can religions, prophets and persecutions spontaneously arise in your fortress?
Can pilgrims arrive in your fort if you have a shrine?
Can your fort be a host to a holy relic (e.g. if you host a religion's high priest)?
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8049984#msg8049984Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050068#msg8050068Nopenope (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050216#msg8050216Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050307#msg8050307Unless somebody finds a post, the AMBUSHER/goblin thing is lost to time. I just don't remember. Certainly both goblins and humans should be a bit more versatile, and maybe we'll see some of that when we finally take a look at sieges, whenever that happens.
Yeah, party members can be controlled by swapping and in the tactical mode, whereas regular companions always act under computer control. We don't have a way to promote or demote them from those statuses yet - we were considering something like 100% loyalty if you wanted to do a party promote, but that's still a pretty big step. (at the same time, if, eventually, you'll be able to be any historical figure, it's not that big a step - it's more what you should be able to do in a given game, without require a retire, to avoid easy exploits and oddness.) On the demotion side, we still need to handle violence between party members (which is generally a player issue) - not sure what'll go on with demotion there, if anything - these situations would either be less extreme (the desired sparring, for example) or more extreme (full companionship breakup, rather than party->companion demotion.)
I have not yet done anything with post-start pets, despite that being a goal of ours.
Yeah, adventure villainy is still on the table. We are feeling pressed for time, but it also remains fairly straightforward to add.
For the fort, it depends on how these anti-villain off-site actions play out -- you can already send a squad to destroy an entire town. Adding a targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap) won't be too difficult, especially since those already exist for villains. But we're going to start with on-site investigations and follow where that goes. Off-site stuff seems necessary for a satisfying resolution.
Pilgrims move physically, yeah -- even the ones that come to your fort path across the world map. I'm not sure what the comprehensive list of 'teleporters' is currently... migrants teleport, diplomats/liaisons teleport, merchant caravans coming to the fort teleport - the oldest calendar events. Are those the only ones left? All of the 'heroic' and religious and scholarly professions move as armies do (to the fort and otherwise), as do siegers/thieves now. Ah, beast attacks (mega/forgotten/etc.) are still world map teleporters -- mainly because the FBs live underground and underground travel is still annoying.
The pilgrims visit temples as usual.
We don't have a holy relic creator yet. These are usually body parts and possessions of priests, so it'll be on the table when the high priests go in, but as with all the features associated to organized religion in the fort, it'll be log-by-log and we'll see where it goes.
Will Museums, Sculpture Gardens, and Tombs/Memorial Halls eventually operate in the same system as the Taverns, Libraries, and Temples?
Will we see social events like marriages and funerals in Temples like we see spontaneous Performances in Taverns?
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8050152#msg8050152Yeah, as stated by Shonai_Dweller, these can be incorporated into the latter locations. However, I do think it'll be cool later to be able to raise other types of places to 'location' status. Certainly something recognized as a 'Tomb' or 'Museum' could have a temple in it, rather than the other way around. We may get to more with this when we get to the embark situation stuff, we'll have to see how that all shakes out. 'Sites' themselves could also use some reconceptualizing, as far as the purposes go, and in various other ways, concerning how they are nested and so forth, at which point the site/location boundary blurs.
We'd like to do more with ceremonies of various kinds, but we aren't there yet.
With the correct configuration of ethics, will modders have the ability to disband the penalty/aggressively pursue conviction for incorrectly or misjudged arrests, or will the multiple factors like attitudes to justice affect this no matter which typical or tweaked entity civilization you will play?
Modding values for the civ should have an impact on it, yeah, since you are already able to squelch things like people caring about wrongful convictions. There's the problem of value randomization for individuals, which would lead to a few people still caring. You'd also have to mod personality trait ranges to get rid of some of the other negative emotions, though.
Author
Topic: Future of the Fortress (Read 3137572 times)