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[zakarum]

Thank you for the answers Toady.

Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Thank you for the answers Toady.

Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?

Someone asked this in Reddit. The answer is, as I recall,  basically, it's the modder's responsibility (better search for the exact quote). If they choose not to share their mod with everyone there's not much anyone can do about it

As a community, we should encourage anyone uploading interesting mods solely to Steam to share with the rest of the players. It's the same game, all mods are compatible, so there's really no reason it shouldn't be shared at DFFD too. Unless the aim is to deliberately not share. And then, again, not Toady's fault.

The Crusader Kings community seems to have managed this for several years, with all major mods available on the forum.

[zakarum]

Though to be fair, Crusader Kings 2 is a steam exclusive game. It needs Steam and it's not available without it anywhere else. It would be very unlikely that it shared this problem. As I said, it's not really the developer's responsibility for what people choose to do, but it's the developers responsibility that this was enabled as Workshop integration is his choice.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Though to be fair, Crusader Kings 2 is a steam exclusive game. It needs Steam and it's not available without it anywhere else. It would be very unlikely that it shared this problem. As I said, it's not really the developer's responsibility for what people choose to do, but it's the developers responsibility that this was enabled as Workshop integration is his choice.

It used to be on GOG. But all the mods are shared on the forum, so it didn't become a problem. And it's still the case that the mods are all shared on the forum on the developer's site, not just Steam.
We already have a healthy modding community with mods that have been kept up to date for years and years. Yes, Meph and Taffer and all the long-term modders might all get together one drunken night and say "lets screw the community, that would be funny". But it's not really likely, is it? It's completely possible as a community to manage that mods are shared. Besides Steam Workshop is one of the main selling points. The point is to sell the game and make money, remember? Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.

So, anyway, how much is this actually a problem? Mods not on Steam will all work on the Steam version, but can it be done the other way around? Are mods all kept in a cloud someplace away from the game files? I don't know how it works.

Oh, and I guess, taking this over to the Steam thread might be a good idea.

[zakarum]

Crusader Kings 2 was never on GOG. None of the new generation Paradox games were except Stellaris and EU:Rome recently. It used to be on Gamersgate and that was before workshop integration. With it the GG version was discontinued. That's why that problem never happened with Crusader Kings 2: Workshop killed the alternative versions.

Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.

So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.

Regardless,  I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. If he wants Workshop so bad then it could be a Steam-exclusive game, sure, it's his game. What I raised is the potential for the creation of second-class consumers, even though all consumers should be treated the same. With this new direction there's also new responsibilities to people and people who buy in Itch.io shouldn't be expected to be treated as a second-class consumer.

I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his. So I disagree that it belongs in the "steam thread".

[Shonai_Dweller]

Crusader Kings 2 was never on GOG. None of the new generation Paradox games were except Stellaris and EU:Rome recently. It used to be on Gamersgate and that was before workshop integration. With it the GG version was discontinued. That's why that problem never happened with Crusader Kings 2: Workshop killed the alternative versions.

Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.

So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.

Regardless,  I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his.

And he answered it already in the Reddit Q&A. As I said.
(Incidentally, no, that's not what I said at all).

--edit
15 seconds of Google-fu later...

Do you think the modders on the workshop will take resposibility in keeping mods accessible to people on the free/itch.io version? I know for a fact that some people really dislike steam so I wouldn't like to think that accessibility would have some unexpected drawbacks (say, people only posting on steam, making steam the only viable way of playing modded DF).

TarnAdams

·
18 days ago
The thing about responsibility is that it's an individual thing if you don't try to enforce it, I guess, so really, it's up to the modders. We'll have an open format. A mod that works in one place will work in another in principle, though Workshop is meant I think to streamline the installation process. But we have a huge modding forum over at Bay 12 that isn't going anywhere, so if somebody has, say a creatures.txt mod that they post there, it can be used anywhere, even if they also put it on Workshop. My txt files are all explicitly public domain -- I didn't gpl them or anything, so if somebody restricts their mod, that's their own thing. If somebody wants to post it everywhere, that's great, and of course it is nice when people share! If this does somehow lead to a concentration of mods on Steam, I'm not sure how to avoid that. But DF itself is always going to have a free version, and people that are into that will mod with that in mind.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Was in the r/gamedev AMA actually, in case anyone wants the link ^^

[zakarum]

And just like crusader kings 2 was never on GoG, that's not what I asked either.

The Reddit question is asking if he thinks that modders in steam will provide non-walled version of their mods.
I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
 
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?

[PatrikLundell]

Yes, multiple fora will result in a split of the modding scene to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure there are going to be people who'll only know about the Steam workshop and post there exclusively, as well as many who'd only know to look there. I, for one, am not going to post anything there (I don't think you could if you haven't bought this specific game there), but provide it over here, so anyone who'd want to use it would have to grab it here.

I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).

[EternalCaveDragon]

I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
 
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?

Yes, multiple fora will result in a split of the modding scene to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure there are going to be people who'll only know about the Steam workshop and post there exclusively, as well as many who'd only know to look there. I, for one, am not going to post anything there (I don't think you could if you haven't bought this specific game there), but provide it over here, so anyone who'd want to use it would have to grab it here.

I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).

As a dabbler in the use of Steam Workshop as a platform for modding, no, the files aren't kept separate until needed, at least in the case of some games. Some will in fact appear on your computer itself, though they may require a bit of digging to find the mod you want due to how the files are named by the Workshop compared to a separate upload. I remember hearing that somewhere but I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement across different games.

Anyway, provided the mod's file structure is compatible between versions of the game which it seems will be the case judging by quotes, then there really shouldn't be any difference between posting to the Workshop or posting to DFFD. The game would read files from both/either the same way and Steam plays well with mods not from the Workshop in my personal experience. So mixing and matching mods regardless of upload location shouldn't matter too much. All depends on where the individual players want to look, which means it's the players' prerogative whether or not they access certain mods.

In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both. It's not the Adams' or Kitfox's responsibility to ensure mods exist on both platforms, regardless of whether or not certain members of the community believe they should. Plus, it's too early to make any predictions anyhow as to the impact since the game itself isn't out on Steam or itch yet so we don't know for sure how people will react.

[zakarum]

In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both.

But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.

But it's the modder's choice!

I'd appreciate if people would stop trying to swerve the question in this direction. That's not what I asked. I appreciate the efforts to try and answer my question but so far I only got misinterpretation and some moving to another (albeit similar) topic.

Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.

People have always been allowed to help answer questions, only difference is that he started linking to said answers too if he felt they answered the question, rather than just skipping the question (and noting the people who answered stuff at the top of the post). Not sure I agree with your view that there's any gatekeeping going on, I'd hope all proxy answers are born from simply wanting to help whoever asked something and/or make Toady's job easier (though as with anything on the internet the urge to want to be right can easily take hold), and no one is stopped from disagreeing with an answers validity (like you're doing now) or clarifying their question if they feel something was misunderstood . Not sure if any guidelines could be made that would make much of a difference, linking quotes is always better than trying to answer from memory of course (unless it's a yes/no or equally easy question, but probably even then), which wasn't really the case here though. Personally can't quite tell what isn't answered of your question with that quote either so trying to explain it further somehow would probably be a good idea, unless all this bickering has explained it enough for Toady to hopefully get the gist of it.

[EternalCaveDragon]

But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.

I think I know where my personal misunderstanding was. And again I find your argument fallacious. I was specifically stating what barriers there are from the Steam side, of which there are none, because I've seen said lack of barriers for myself. But I believe you're talking about barriers from outside the Workshop. Now here's why I find your argument fallacious: assumption for the worse. You're assuming that every single mod creator on the Workshop will only post to the Workshop. You're also assuming every single mod on the Workshop will be desirable by the wider community, the appeal of a mod is subjective. Not every mod/utility for DF that's out there gets downloaded by the whole community. Not everyone uses the Lazy Newb Pack or DFHack. Plus, if someone ends up being interested in a certain mod that's available only on the Workshop at that time, they in all probability either downloaded the Steam version of DF already or they will ask the creator if they could post it to DFFD. Which with enough demand some might actually do. Not every modder of the Steam version will be aware of DFFD at first, that's an impossible ask due to the new players (and thus modders) the Steam release will attract.

And above all, it all lies with the modders themselves how available they make their mods. I highly doubt it is intentional to create any barriers to access to mods, and to lay responsibility for that at the feet of the developer is a bit of a reach if you ask me since they have no control over the modding community's choices. And to say anyone who doesn't download the Steam version will become a "second-class consumer" is just as fallacious because it's based on the assumptions above. Plus it comes off as trying to start a fight before the Steam release has even happened.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I think we've all misinterpreted the question.
That Toady is just one guy and is reading the same text as us means he probably will too, but whatever. Forget about it for a month. Maybe discuss Steam and mods and potential Workshop issues with people interested in discussing Steam and mods and Workshop issues over at the Steam thread.

Do you think the updates for Steam release will add enough changes that it will break saves like Mythgen probably will? Maybe that's a good thing for working without restrictions?

[PatrikLundell]

Steam Workshop debate:
- Toady has described the reason for why DF spreads to the commercial route. Some people dislike that, but it's Toady's decision to make.
- Due to its prominence, it's hard (but not impossible) to bypass Steam when trying to attract sales. Regardless, that decision has already been made.
- It would be plain stupid NOT to enable Steam Workshop for a game that has moddable raws as a core feature.
- It's an unfortunate effect of the above that some of what end up in the Workshop may end up inside the Steam gated community wall. That, however, is not a valid reason for bypassing Steam Workshop.
- I assume it falls on Kitfox to moderate the Steam Workshop, and hopefully do so in a manner that promotes making whatever is produced over there available to all DF users. They should probably point to Bay12 as the core scene, or new players are likely to miss the best stuff.
- I'd expect Bay12 to remain the center of the DF scene as the main (only?) source of DFHack, Dwarf Therapist, Legends Viewer, etc. tools, and probably the main source for mods.