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[ZM5]

Orcs dont exist in vanilla because of the reasons outlined above - vanilla DF, by all means, is mostly just a "generic fantasy universe" simulator, and it has all the setting bases covered in that regard; it doesn't need orcs since goblins fill the "evil greenskin" niche already.

Of course you can use it as a canvas to add in more interesting races and creatures, and I recommend doing so yourself, but I don't think Toady is ever gonna add basic orcs into the game.
Most of the other stuff you mentioned is already planned to be in later versions - not particularly worried about that.

[Sooner535]

I added a new suggestion to the list, seemed better than creating a new topic

[Shonai_Dweller]

6) This happens. Humans fight each other. Each human civ has randomised values so it happens more often than with dwarves. Wars are mainly triggered by differences in values and ethics (mainly ethics, so even human wars are rare) right now and Dwarf civs not only have have very similar values and identical ethics to each other, but they don't actually attack anyone ever (except if provoked by player raids). Goblins will fight each other too (even within their own civ) due to power struggles between entities.

Law and politics arc will define war more clearly, so yeah, it's planned.

[Cathar]

Not only kingdoms of the same race will fight against each other, but local governments of the same kingdom will aswell, also those wars are short and small in scope. But yeah. Villages will litterally attack each other for the tolls on a bridge or a road until the matter is settled. There are a multitude of reasons two civs or two local govs will go at each others.



But here, I advise you take a look at the Features implemented and planned

[GoblinCookie]

Kobolds and elves to a lesser extent are exactly that. Problem is ; DF mechanics do not follow the usual fantasy narratives. It is a (however flawed) simulation ; you enter input, it generates output. Any barbaric civilization (which means no agriculture) with no racial advantage to allow them to sustain a population will die out very quickly. At least it will when the economy system will be reimplemented... right now every civ can either produce their own food or don't need it - so the problem doesn't appear in vanilla but might be worthy of consideration for modders.

Add orcs that need to eat in large numbers, and without the plotshield of most fantasy settings to keep them alive, they will just starve and that will be the end of it. Or they won't be able to sustain a large population and will be easy targets for any other civ.

The mongols did quite fine despite not having any agriculture. 

6) This happens. Humans fight each other. Each human civ has randomised values so it happens more often than with dwarves. Wars are mainly triggered by differences in values and ethics (mainly ethics, so even human wars are rare) right now and Dwarf civs not only have have very similar values and identical ethics to each other, but they don't actually attack anyone ever (except if provoked by player raids). Goblins will fight each other too (even within their own civ) due to power struggles between entities.

Law and politics arc will define war more clearly, so yeah, it's planned.

I think that values are ignored and only ethics are taken into account. 

[LMeire]

...
The mongols did quite fine despite not having any agriculture. 

...

Does shepherding not count as agriculture? I could have sworn it did.

[Anandar]

...
The mongols did quite fine despite not having any agriculture. 

...

Does shepherding not count as agriculture? I could have sworn it did.

That is actually called animal husbandry which covers domesticating and raising animals for food or tools but not as pets... cows, sheep, pigs, llamas etc....

[Sooner535]

I would like to think that a raiding based faction should work anyways right? I mean just go to a farming based village, kill a few people, then demand that they give you a certain percentage of their crops or they kill you all. Maybe that would be the perfect place for orcs? They could even take prisoners (as they do now I assume) and use them later as soldiers to help take from others, they could even be an early threat to your fort, like they come in once you hit, idk, 20 pop and demand tribute each year and then if you can get even a small military up you can fight them off? Meanwhile the orc civ could be more spread out then other civs (so more sites, less pop per site) and only occasionally settle down in large settlements to actually have animals, or farm, or whatever. They could even be a race that ethics range wildly per tribe? Thoughts?

[IndigoFenix]

A small group can sustain itself on raiding alone for a while, but this becomes less viable the bigger the group becomes.  At some point you either need to start producing your own food or set yourself up as ruler over a country to do it for you, at which point it stops being raiding and starts being taxes.

DF makes things interesting though with goblins that don't need to eat, fulfilling a fantasy world requirement in ways that could never happen in real life.

[Cathar]

The mongols did quite fine despite not having any agriculture. 

Some wiki digging reveal that mongols' ancestors (Ruanruan) cultivated the land from the VIth century onward. Apparently they cultivated primarily millet, and the traditional nomad class was a subset of the total population, and depended of the farmers for their survival. If you want to start a Götürk (VIth to VIIIth century) band and start raiding for cattle and horses, you need to be backed up by a tribe of laborers.

DF makes things interesting though with goblins that don't need to eat, fulfilling a fantasy world requirement in ways that could never happen in real life.

It also shows natural consequences that are generally unintended by most fantasy writers. For instance, the elven immortality. You make elves immortal, you will naturally grow their population at lightspeed because they won't stop breeding unless they are killed. And since immortality means an infinity of generational overlap (where threeto four generations can overlap for humans), an elven warlord has access to an unimaginable amount of manpower.

I tried to explain this to warhammer players with some numbers, even without considering the exponential population growth, a population that lives for 1000 years can line up 25 fighters for each fighter of a population that lives for 60, due to generational overlap. High elves do not even need to go to war, they can just outbreed everyone... which is the reason why it's imortant they remain tribal in DF

[Sooner535]

Well even more credit to my suggestion then I suppose, having the orcs be a more spread out faction with some centers of government sounds like it's right up that alley. However is that what the creators and the community wants with orcs? Realism and stability aside, you have to consider what is fun in a game otherwise what's the point of making it?

[ZM5]

IIRC aren't animal people eventually planned to have (non-civ level) tribes along with settlements and so on that you could visit? Perhaps they could raid as well so the "early invader" idea is probably already in Toady's head (though it might take until the "hill dwarf" arc for that to happen) - goblins still fill the "raider faction" idea, though since they require no sustenance its moreso that they raid for fun rather than raiding out of neccessity. I imagine that with the procedural civilized races that both "raiding out of neccessity" races as well as "early invader" ones will be possible.

As was mentioned before, Toady doesn't want to merely recreate a standard fantasy setting, which is why orcs aren't a thing and most likely won't be as their niches are already filled by other things; he wants to have a simulation with detailed magic, economy and myth systems; one of the myth goals (atleast, IIRC it was slated for that release) was having procedural civilized races as well, so as Shonai mentioned, its possible that in one of the worlds you generate you'll have a race that will have some kind of a different name, but will for all intents and purposes nail every "orc" stereotype.

I'm guessing that more site types will eventually be a thing as well (perhaps raw-modifiable as well, or made with some kind of editor), again for the mythgen stuff, since having the different procedural races having the same types of sites as now would be rather boring and wouldn't make much sense either - so there isn't much of a point to quickly introduce a new race to the main 4 (or 5 if you count kobolds) just to have a different site type.

[Anandar]

Well if thats the case why not make centaurs a race or humanoid giants, merfolk already exist so why not make them an underwater civ?
There are so many mythic races that can be turned to civs but in a game like DF there is not much point when the bases for what civ types need to do has been covered as has been pointed out, and as has also been pointed out adding these races and altering them is very easy with the guides that exist, so the dev team can remain focused on the important developmental aspects they want to achieve for the game, adding new exciting depth and gameplay,

[ZM5]

Well if thats the case why not make centaurs a race or humanoid giants, merfolk already exist so why not make them an underwater civ?

Admittedly underwater civs do not work yet in-game - though I'm guessing future releases will make that a possibility so we could have Atlantis-esque stuff in the game.

[Anandar]

Well if thats the case why not make centaurs a race or humanoid giants, merfolk already exist so why not make them an underwater civ?

Admittedly underwater civs do not work yet in-game - though I'm guessing future releases will make that a possibility so we could have Atlantis-esque stuff in the game.

I would hope when boats and oceans are worked on that this will be a part of it... i was just trying to point out in a most basic way that orcs dont need to be added if there is no real purpose for their existence...