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[strainer]

Bowyers could make composite crossbows. Historically composite crossbows are a bit more powerful than iron. The required materials could be horn or bone and wood or adamantine. The performance of plain wood and metal crossbows would be reduced by around 1 quality rating. The bowyer made composite crossbows would perform same as plain bows do at present.

[catoblepas]

I think you have it a bit mixed up. Composite crossbows were not generally stronger than metal ones. Better than simple wood ones, obviously-but the really powerful ones, the arbalests- were made with steel limbs.

Granted, horn should definitely be better than say, a copper crossbow, but that's more of a problem with how Dwarf Fortress doesn't take into account the materials a bow/crossbow is made out of unless its being used in melee.

[strainer]

Im just going on statements made by historical enthusiasts, including a modern crossbow maker who noted in particular the trigger/release mechanism can be made significantly more efficient out of bone.

"arbalests- were made with steel limbs."

So not all metal then.

Call it whatever, it could just be nice if bowyers could make better more complex crossbows than blacksmiths.

[catoblepas]

Im just going on statements made by historical enthusiasts, including a modern crossbow maker who noted in particular the trigger/release mechanism can be made significantly more efficient out of bone.

trigger/release mechanism being made out of horn or bone does not make a crossbow a 'composite' crossbow. composite bows (and crossbows) refers to the construction of the limbs, being made out of a sinew, wood, horn etc glued together. Having a bone firing mechanism would not make it a composite crossbow. nor would it prevent a crossbow from having metal or wood limbs.

"arbalests- were made with steel limbs."

So not all metal then.

Not sure what the point is here. It's not as if composite crossbows, or crossbows with bone/horn nuts would be made entirely out of the same material either. The material the limbs are made out of is going to dictate how powerful you can make a crossbow more than anything.

Call it whatever, it could just be nice if bowyers could make better more complex crossbows than blacksmiths.

It *is* rather simplistic right now. It would be great for weapons/armor in general to have their components better represented like musical instruments are right now.

If/when that happens, I imagine we'd end up with limbs and the frame made separately, the former from wood/horn/bone/metal, and the later from wood and assembled at the bowyers workshop, with the material the limbs were made out of being the 'primary material' and impacting the power of the crossbow.

We'd probably end up with a lot of +cow hoof crossbow+ though, so Toady might have to find a way to better distinguish horn and hoof materials for usability in crossbows for that to work out well.

[strainer]

I think it would be fine to call advanced crossbows in the game "composite".

A wooden composite prod can deliver energy more efficiently than metal prod because wood is so much lighter - on firing more of the stored up energy goes into accelerating the quarrel rather than the prod itself. Wooden prods have this advantage even compared to high grade steel - which is not what the games metal smiths are normally working with.

The energy efficiency of the prod could be just a marginal issue with large mechanically loaded bows like the kind you mentioned, but having gorilla strength dwarves load their crossbows on the run  - efficiency is everything when loading effort and time is limited. Thats why I think composite prods and parts would be involved in the ultimate dwarven crossbows.

[JadeToad]

i wish normal bows and arrows could be created at a bowyer workshop.

[KittyTac]

i wish normal bows and arrows could be created at a bowyer workshop.

They're only used by elves, dwarves can't make bows.

[Leodanny]

i wish normal bows and arrows could be created at a bowyer workshop.

What? Only stinking elves make those! Heh. Good idea, actually.
What kinda stats do you think there should be?

[catoblepas]

I think it would be fine to call advanced crossbows in the game "composite".

A wooden composite prod can deliver energy more efficiently than metal prod because wood is so much lighter - on firing more of the stored up energy goes into accelerating the quarrel rather than the prod itself. Wooden prods have this advantage even compared to high grade steel - which is not what the games metal smiths are normally working with.

The energy efficiency of the prod could be just a marginal issue with large mechanically loaded bows like the kind you mentioned, but having gorilla strength dwarves load their crossbows on the run  - efficiency is everything when loading effort and time is limited. Thats why I think composite prods and parts would be involved in the ultimate dwarven crossbows.

Metal arbalests can have draw weights of thousands of pounds, much more than you will get out of a wooden one. For context-english longbows had a draw weight of somewhere betweeen 100-200lbs. The weight of the crossbow's limbs is a non factor here-metal crossbows are just capable of transferring much, much more energy into their quarrels.

Yes, crossbows with composite limbs are better than wood, but they are still going to be inferior than iron/steel.

You generally wouldn't use 'gorilla strength' to span any but the least powerful crossbows btw-belt hooks, stirrups, windlasses, cranequin's and crow's feet were used because those heavy draw weights are too much for a human to handle without mechanical assistance.

i wish normal bows and arrows could be created at a bowyer workshop.

They're only used by elves, dwarves can't make bows.

I believe the poster you are replying to is suggesting that dwarves should be able to make them.

[KittyTac]

I don't think they should be able to, the same way elves can't make crossbows. I would like it for each race to have different weapons.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I don't think they should be able to, the same way elves can't make crossbows. I would like it for each race to have different weapons.

Luckily we can customize all the races any way we want so everyone's happy.

[strainer]

Metal arbalests can have draw weights of thousands of pounds,

You missed the point. Wood/composite cant be drawn as hard, but it delivers drawn energy more efficiently. This is why we dont see any warbows wade out of spring steel - because the effort/energy archers can put into the bow is limited, as much as that energy as possible needs to go into the shot - and wood is the superior material for achieving that, because it is evolved to be light and springy. With metal bow, more of the release energy is soaked up by the inertia of the metals mass.

This is why its really quite clear that for dwarf hand loaded bows and crossbows wood composite prows have better potential than metal ones.

[catoblepas]

Steel bows, although uncommon, actually can be found in and around India.

Crossbows in general are much less efficient at transferring that stored energy into the projectile than bows. This is what makes steel limbs=more stored energy=more energy transferred to the quarrel. They need to have higher draw weights than their bow counterparts to achieve the same results, this is why crossbows tend to have draw weights far in excess of what a human could handle with just their two hands.

crossbows that can be loaded and fired by hand without some sort of apparatus (at the very least a stirrup or belt hook!) tend to be really quite low powered and short ranged.

The historical record is pretty clear on this in regards to the relative power and range of crossbows:
        Worst                                   Better                                      Best
Wooden Crossbows------->Composite Crossbows-------->Metal(steel) Crossbows

Which is not to say that wood and horn crossbows(and normal bows, for that matter) do not have advantages that metal ones do not:
1) Don't use precious metal
2) Can make repeating crossbows out of (historically the chinese chu ko nu came in wood and composite varieties) Not sure if Toady plans this, but it would be neat to see them and non-traditional varieties in game.
3) Not all metals equal-the ideal material for metal-limbed crossbows is steel, copper (for example) would make a poor substitute.
4) Conceivably faster reload time. Weaker crossbows might not require crannequins/windlasses etc in order to prepare the crossbow for firing.
5) Providing a non-crafts-related usage for horn material would be welcome, I think. The lack of usage for some materials right now is kinda unfortunate, I think.

[strainer]

Steel bows, although uncommon, actually can be found in and around India.

But, exceptional. If steel was superior we would know of english longbows made out of it.

The historical record is pretty clear on this in regards to the relative power and range of crossbows:
        Worst                                   Better                                      Best
Wooden Crossbows------->Composite Crossbows-------->Metal(steel) Crossbows

Given, that corrects my opening statement which could have more completely been: "Historically composite crossbows are a bit more powerful than iron (for a given draw effort)"

You seem to have come round to accepting the premise of my point here - that woodcrafting technology can make more effort-efficient prods than metalsmithing: "They need to have higher draw weights than their bow counterparts to achieve the same results". With even more powerful prods an extra crank on the loading mechanism is a price worth paying to get to higher overall power level.

Single piece wooden bows/prods can also be effectively composites by having two different growth types of wooden running through the length.

So at least a rough logic exists for enabling bowyers to make slightly more powerful dwarf hand drawn crossbows out of multiple crafting materials including wood and bone. 'Composite' would not be a terribly innacurate label for such technology.

[catoblepas]

Steel bows, although uncommon, actually can be found in and around India.

But, exceptional. If steel was superior we would know of english longbows made out of it.

Or the English metalurgy was not up to snuff. Or the fact that yew was just cheaper and more convenient than steel. Or the idea of it was unknown in distant Europe and the idea of making bows out of steel just wasn't an innovation they had made-heck, England was a bit unusual with their insistence on using bows instead of crossbows after the rest of Europe started transitioning.

It proves that Steel bows are possible with the right metallurgical knowhow. Note that the Indians did not themselves use crossbows-steel bows already filled the niche that crossbows and longbows fulfilled in Europe, complete with their own dedicated armor-piercing projectiles, much like those weapons.

The historical record is pretty clear on this in regards to the relative power and range of crossbows:
        Worst                                   Better                                      Best
Wooden Crossbows------->Composite Crossbows-------->Metal(steel) Crossbows

Given, that corrects my opening statement which could have more completely been: "Historically composite crossbows are a bit more powerful than iron (for a given draw effort)"

You seem to have come round to accepting the premise of my point here - that woodcrafting technology can make more effort-efficient prods than metalsmithing: "They need to have higher draw weights than their bow counterparts to achieve the same results". With even more powerful prods an extra crank on the loading mechanism is a price worth paying to get to higher overall power level.

Please don't. You have pivoted on your position several times already, sometimes even within the same post. Your original statement was that they were more powerful than iron or wood, and that crossbows of that were not composite should be less powerful/treated as having lower quality.

And yes, that extra draw weights they could handle did historically justify the slower rate of fire of crossbows and the lower comparative energy transfer efficiency to the projectile. But you only really start seeing those benefits with much higher draw weights-higher than you can get by using 'gorilla strength' to pull back the string. So efficiency differences between the materials is secondary to the draw weight of the bow-if energy transfer efficiency was your concern, you'd be using a bow, not a crossbow. Though I am dubious that there is a huge efficiency gap in energy transfer between composite and steel, considering you claimed that this was due to the 'release/firing mechanism' (the nut) which would be entirely unrelated to the efficiency of the actual crossbow limbs which you seem to have extended this claim to.

Single piece wooden bows/prods can also be effectively composites by having two different growth types of wooden running through the length.

So at least a rough logic exists for enabling bowyers to make slightly more powerful dwarf hand drawn crossbows out of multiple crafting materials including wood and bone. 'Composite' would not be a terribly innacurate label for such technology.

Yes, theoretically yew would make a better material for crossbow limbs than (for example) pine.

It would make sense for dwarves to make crossbows using horn to make composite crossbows, and it would make sense for those crossbows to be better than ones with purely wood limbs. That does not mean that they should be better than steel crossbows.