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[strainer]

Ok if you cant recognise that wood/composite bows are more energy efficient than steel by this stage, we will just have to agree disagree.

[catoblepas]

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Then we'll just have to disagree. Steel might be 4x heavier than horn, but when you need significantly more horn than steel to achieve the same results, then the supposed 'energy efficiency' of horn disappears.

Toady's has implemented a material system, and that data is where the traits of the weapons in question should come from down the line IMHO. Not from arbitrarily and artificially making non-horn projectile weapons worse by treating their quality as less.

Now the main barrier to that as I see it would be that DF does not currently really handle items made from multiple materials very extensively, and doesn't handle composite materials -like yew or a horn/sinew laminate at all. Toady would need to address this at some point or I imagine any *Water Buffalo Horn Crossbow* we get down the line will be sorely lacking in power, I fear.

Another would be that DF doesn't really distinguish horns from hooves, but while a bull's horn would be a great material to make a composite crossbow out of, it's hoof....would not

The last problem I could see is that different materials having different draw weights could cause some problems for bows, which do not have crannequin's etc that would allow very weak dwarves to draw back the crossbow string. If you stockpile a bunch of different composite and wood bows, they could all have different draw weights, which could cause problems for the military-like having 20 different bows that nobody can use because their drawstrength is too high-or your strong dwarves taking the weakest bows, thus depriving your weakest dwarves of usable bows...too say nothing about the potential problem of siegers/npcs spawning with bows they might not be able to use.

Now what I'd like to see would be:

1) Frames and limbs made separately like the components of instruments currently are.

2) When queuing up limbs to be made, you should be able to select what how strong/weak the bow/crossbow will be, as well as the material. Possibly by selecting a material and then from a list of valid draw weights (measured in kg/urists/whatever they are called) selectign a material but not a draw weight or material will result in the bonecarver/weaponsmith etc making limbs at a draw strength around what an 'average' dwarf of average strength would be able to draw, or as close as they can get with a given material. Selecting a draw strength but no material will result in dwarves only selecting materials that can achieve that draw weight, and selecting a material but no draw weight will result in the construction of limbs for crossbows as close to the draw strength as they can get with the selected material.

3) Depending on the draw weight, crossbows and bows could be classified as 'light' or 'heavy' depending on if the draw weight is significantly higher or lower than what an average member of your fort's species can use-similarly to how clothing can be labled 'small' or 'large' if it's too small or too large for you (in adventure mode) or your fort (in fort mode). This should help the players sort out bows and crossbows that might be useful to them.

4) If a bow is too strong a draw-weight, you can't draw it, but perhaps crossbows could have longer reload times in tics based off their draw strength as a balancer vs bows. This could make crossbows better as a sort of siege defense weapon vs bows, with their faster firing nature, might be better for skirmishes in the open. Players might also value their stronger dwarves for their ability to use heavy-draw bows, which would be neato, I think.

5) Invading archers should be generated with as strong a bow as they can pull, to prevent them from coming with bows they cannot shoot or bows much too weak for them- invading crossbowmen should be generated with random draw-strength bows, since their strength shouldn't impact their ability to load or fire their crossbow.

[strainer]

"arbitrarily and artificially making non-horn projectile weapons worse by treating their quality as less."

Its just a matter of somehow simply enabling bowyers to make crosswbows which are a little more powerful than general weaponsmiths, because it is quite pointless at the moment to invest in training a bowyer when weaponsmiths cbs are just as good - and they make half decent hammers to boot.

So we would either make the specialist bowyers cbs more powerful, or nerf the weaponsmith version slightly, or do both a little. Personally i would still equip hammer/crossbows until fort is mature enough to have some dwarfs specialise.

Its an interesting idea to craft and assemble separate cb parts like with instruments - but much more work to implement and document than a simple change to the items bowyers produce.

[thompson]

Wood and bone crossbows currently do have advantages you're not considering. They are lighter, allowing dwarves to carry more bolts or heavier armour, and they are made from materials that are readily available (usually) and require less processing. I usually train a boyer early on, stockpile the Masterwork pieces and sell the rest to the caravans. Metal crossbows are better in melee, but unless you have a lot of steel I don't consider that worthwhile. If anything, I'd like to see metal ones buffed.

Composite weapons are a good idea, especially as a weight reduction strategy if that were supported properly. It complicates the manufacturing process, so you would need simpler options for an early fort.

Mind you, complicated supply chains would provide incentive for players to specialise their forts rather than practicing autarky, which makes trade more valuable and provides an incentive to actively trade, which rewards forts that don't simply shut the gate and live in isolation. If only trade could be automated...

[strainer]

I dont think we are saving a significant amount of carrying weight with wooden CBs. Its <1 L for wood and 3 or 4 L for metal. But 25 metal bolts weigh 25-35L and a bowyer doesnt even make the lighter wooden ones.

Some trade automation would be a relief - just persistent orders from the previous session would help.

[thompson]

Fair point on the bolts. I hope their weight gets fixed eventually though.

[FantasticDorf]

Or the English metalurgy was not up to snuff. Or the fact that yew was just cheaper and more convenient than steel. Or the idea of it was unknown in distant Europe and the idea of making bows out of steel just wasn't an innovation they had made-heck, England was a bit unusual with their insistence on using bows instead of crossbows after the rest of Europe started transitioning.

The longbow had served a critical purpose, especially with all the rigorous training, it also took less carpentry work to make from one piece of wood than the multiple parts of a crossbow & was generally more piercing because of the wider area the arrow had to draw upon. Against rudimentary knights it wasn't that important to swap.

A longbow eqivilent in DF would be quite likely a large two handed bow with higher than average velocity requiring a tall & ideally physically strong user, (substituting the fact that also it doesn't have a nessecary strength to pull back and use in game, you can just fire shots all day.)