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Author Topic: Trenchgrind: Marseille  (Read 2606 times)

Aigre Excalibur

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Trenchgrind: Marseille
« on: January 31, 2018, 08:33:59 am »

General Staff discussions for Marseille go here. You can only play for one side, so choose.

Original Thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169365.0

Available military volunteers: 50,000
Political Points: 5
Steel stockpile: 2,500 Metric Tons
Production: 2,500 Metric Tons
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:54:17 am by Aigre Excalibur »
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 03:20:33 pm »

Alrighty!

We should probably start by spamming regulars and artillery. The "experience" mechanic makes the lower value troops a bargain compared to the Veterans, since they only need a couple of turns to "level up". As long as they are fighting at a reasonable distance, they shouldn't rack up too many casualties in that time-facing an equal threat at 10% damage from a trench means that everyone will probably make it through with scratches.

The system heavily favors the defenders-even under the best of circumstances attackers will take double the damage on average. Artillery fixes this little problem somewhat, if we can rain down our big guns on the enemy trenches then we can hold a defensive position without too much risk. The really big guns are tempting-especially if we decide to take direct command of them for a sweet 100% moral bonus. They do as much damage as a heavily artillery in low range at their max range. And their max range is 40km. It should certainly be capable of taking out any enemy artillery. The downside is that it cost enough metal to field 150,000 men :(. With an income of 50,000 men per turn, alongside 2,500 steel, we should be able to field all our soldiers and as much smaller artillery we want. Steel only really limits the amount of Super Big Guns we can field-we get enough for ~400 Big Guns or 250,000 men otherwise. I'd argue it is worth it, unless we want to do heavy artillery spam instead.

So my suggestion for the start up phase:
1 Super Heavy Artillery Battery (1500 Tons/2500 dudes?/maybe an extra 25 tons to equip all the dudes?)
40,000 Recruit Spam (40,000 dudes, 400 tones)

Fill in the rest with light artillery for when we need to hit things and actually move

30 light artillery (7500 dudes, 60 tones/maybe 75 tones to equip all the dudes)

Total: all 50,000 dudes, ~2000 tones depending on how much we actually need. Ain't perfect, but its a start. Should be able to fight a defensive fight, pound any trenches that need pounding, and at least hold the line enough for us to get more shooty things down.
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AbstractTraitorHero

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 03:21:03 pm »

The drums of war turn on the horizon. A man staring across the field a cigar perched in his mouth. An officer and one of high standing at that. He would be attaching himself to a company.

Lead them in these trying times to come. Quietly he takes out a pen. Begins to write and sends a letter to the great leaders and counsel of Maribelle. Pocket watch tuned and officers trenchcoat at the ready.


Quote from: Résumé de l'agent Recommendations.
  • Men are needed for this trying time. Spend a bit of influence and rally them together counsel. Spend two political points on conscription.
  • Secondly our steel? It could of course always use an uptake in production. Let's get it done quickly. Increase steel production by 2% spend two politic points.
Lastly? Well, a war fought without allies not having something to back you up is not fun. Let's try to smear the enemy. Spend a political point trying to convince the world of our foes clear wrongness. We intend to be the victors and we should start curving history already. Last political point.[/i]

Officer me if possible and when possible.

Whoa. Jesus stirk hahah
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 03:37:48 pm »

The drums of war turn on the horizon. A man staring across the field a cigar perched in his mouth. An officer and one of high standing at that. He would be attaching himself to a company.

Lead them in these trying times to come. Quietly he takes out a pen. Begins to write and sends a letter to the great leaders and counsel of Maribelle. Pocket watch tuned and officers trenchcoat at the ready.


Quote from: Résumé de l'agent Recommendations.
  • Men are needed for this trying time. Spend a bit of influence and rally them together counsel. Spend two political points on conscription.
  • Secondly our steel? It could of course always use an uptake in production. Let's get it done quickly. Increase steel production by 2% spend two politic points.
Lastly? Well, a war fought without allies not having something to back you up is not fun. Let's try to smear the enemy. Spend a political point trying to convince the world of our foes clear wrongness. We intend to be the victors and we should start curving history already. Last political point.[/i]

Officer me if possible and when possible.

Whoa. Jesus stirk hahah

I believe we have to spend all our political points on Soldiers the first turn (or we won't get the maximum amount of conscripts, and will have a weak start). Frankly, spending points on steel production sucks. 25 extra steel per turn isn't helpful, unless you do it a lot, since the only thing steel really keeps us from doing is fielding Super Heavy Guns/Heavy Artillery in mass (and it doesn't do a great job of stopping us from spamming heavy artillery anyway). The troop's steel cost is low enough that our Rate Determining Step is simply manpower. As you can see, even when we are buying a battery of the most expensive thing ever, we still have 500+ tones of steel that we have nothing to do with. We could give it to some of our men as armor, but even that has its drawbacks. In fact, we could give all of our men armor, and still have some steel left over.

Spending points to try to get enemies on our side is...dubious, at best. The mechanical effects arn't really stated, and we really shouldn't be spending the equivalent to 10k men on something with an unknown effect this early in the game. I doubt one political point will be enough to turn the entire world on our side, and we need to secure the borders first and foremost.
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AbstractTraitorHero

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 03:43:20 pm »

Quote from: Résumé de l'agent
Sir Stirk your arguments have been of a particularly persuasive method. While I had believe myself fairly intelligent in the land of command. It appears I am dealing with a rather...valuable asset to the structure of command and a rather effective micro manger and planner.

I recede my argument and Wholeheartely agree with Sir stirk.
[/b]

But yes your argument makes a manner of sense. The math makes some sense and while I am partial to artillery and wanted get a start on that I can see your point.

Also wanting to get another nation and their manpower and steel and bonuses on our side is something I am interested in.
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 04:59:47 pm »

We also get 5 more turns of super deployment. By the end, we should have an absurd amount of troops if we continue as is.

General plan outline:
Turn 2-4. More guns and regulars. Probably another Super gun so we can brigade them together if we need to. We will be at a disadvantage due to their player amount, since each player is worth a 100% moral boost. Some of the regulars should have armor, and be left as meat shields for the guns.

Turn 4-6. Start spamming Militiamen instead, so we can have the maximum firepower available at the start of the game. Probably spend more of turn 2-4 on guns, since we should have plenty of infantrymen with these steps.

War phase: Examine what the enemy's setup is and act from there. Super guns probably near their maximum range, were the fighting is heaviest. Other artillery and soldiers spread out to engage the threats were they should be, a couple in reserve. See what works and what doesn't, respond with what works.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:47:23 pm by Stirk »
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Baffler

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 11:08:23 pm »

We also get 5 more turns of super deployment. By the end, we should have an absurd amount of troops if we continue as is.

General plan outline:
Turn 2-4. More guns and regulars. Probably another Super gun so we can brigade them together if we need to. We will be at a disadvantage due to their player amount, since each player is worth a 100% moral boost. Some of the regulars should have armor, and be left as meat shields for the guns.

Turn 4-6. Start spamming Militiamen instead, so we can have the maximum firepower available at the start of the game. Probably spend more of turn 2-4 on guns, since we should have plenty of infantrymen with these steps.

War phase: Examine what the enemy's setup is and act from there. Super guns probably near their maximum range, were the fighting is heaviest. Other artillery and soldiers spread out to engage the threats were they should be, a couple in reserve. See what works and what doesn't, respond with what works.

Agreed, but I'm not convinced by the superheavy guns. A single one costs more than half a month's worth of steel production, and it can't fire on enough of the front to make much of a difference unless we have a really obvious spot to attack, and even then an equivalent investment of steel in heavy guns would do the job better. I also feel like trench armor will be more useful for assault troops than for defense. Entrenched units are already extremely difficult to dislodge, and that steel is better spent on more artillery support IMO. Especially when you consider the massive speed penalty they give. Though line-holder militia units could probably benefit from the increased survivability. Other than that, how's this look? Assuming we're using our political points for recruitment for all of these turns. We'll probably need an order of battle too since OP talks about forming divisions, but for now...


Edit: Fixed total production tallies.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 01:27:20 pm by Baffler »
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Pavellius

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 11:19:27 pm »

PTW
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 11:23:46 pm »

We also get 5 more turns of super deployment. By the end, we should have an absurd amount of troops if we continue as is.

General plan outline:
Turn 2-4. More guns and regulars. Probably another Super gun so we can brigade them together if we need to. We will be at a disadvantage due to their player amount, since each player is worth a 100% moral boost. Some of the regulars should have armor, and be left as meat shields for the guns.

Turn 4-6. Start spamming Militiamen instead, so we can have the maximum firepower available at the start of the game. Probably spend more of turn 2-4 on guns, since we should have plenty of infantrymen with these steps.

War phase: Examine what the enemy's setup is and act from there. Super guns probably near their maximum range, were the fighting is heaviest. Other artillery and soldiers spread out to engage the threats were they should be, a couple in reserve. See what works and what doesn't, respond with what works.

Agreed, but I'm not convinced by the superheavy guns. A single one costs more than half a month's worth of steel production, and it can't fire on enough of the front to make much of a difference unless we have a really obvious center of gravity, and even then an equivalent investment of steel in heavy guns would do the job better. I also feel like trench armor will be more useful for assault troops than for defense. Entrenched units are already extremely difficult to dislodge, and that steel is better spent on more artillery support IMO. Especially when you consider the massive speed penalty they give. Though line-holder militia units could probably benefit from the increased survivability. Other than that, how's this look? Assuming we're using our political points for recruitment for all of these turns. We'll probably need an order of battle too since OP talks about forming divisions, but for now...


Its really hard to run out of steel unless we are running a couple of Superheavy/heavy arty. My plan didn't run out of steel-it ran out of men. Your plan doesn't run out of steel, it runs out of conscripts.

The slowness of the heavy guns is a legitimate issue, but I believe their utility more than makes up for it. It will either make itself a big target (in which case we can defend it as they try to take it out, giving us the advantage) or something to be avoided (in which case it can keep a vital area safe trivially). Their range is the main factor, since they can take out enemy artillery from an absurd distance. In any case, that isn't for a single one-that is for a battery of 25. If we want to compromise and buy a handful to see how they work out, we can just buy one or two for something around 60 metal. If we do buy the whole battery, we can split it up across the field so we can get at least some super-long range artillery wherever we need it along the boarder. The France-German boarder is 450 KM long, so we could cover the whole thing twice with one battery spread out over the entirety of the area.

I feel like trench armor is much better on entranced troops who don't have to get up and move. We really, really shouldn't be assaulting unless we have an overwhelming advantage in strength. My plan mostly revolves around holding the line, blasting the enemy to bits, then moving in relatively safely on the weakened position. I don't see a lot of situations where throwing troops into assault is a good idea.
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 11:25:31 pm »

+1 to Baffler's Idea, the SuperHeavy Artillery might actually not be worth it.

If only we could spent some PP on trying to make Denmark or Netherlands our friends, and have them assist us against invading the Deutschland
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frostgiant

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 11:25:52 pm »

Personally, I want to make a single superheavy, and see how that goes. that would let us test out how effective it is at breaking hard point in enemy defenses.

And would it not be resistant to counter artillery fire because of its range? meaning that its immune to counter battery fire from heavy and light artillery because its has a much longer range. At 12 Km it outranges max range heavy artillery (12km vs 10km) and still hits at 50% strength or it can hit them at 100% out of their 50% range (4Km vs 3km).
So it seems like they would be immune to counter battery fire form other non-superheavy artillery.
so its much less likely to die. and we can use it to pop other artillery with impunity.
EDIT: and don't they only take like a 100 men?
just my two cents.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 11:31:18 pm by frostgiant »
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 11:31:36 pm »

+1 to Baffler's Idea, the SuperHeavy Artillery might actually not be worth it.

If only we could spent some PP on trying to make Denmark or Netherlands our friends, and have them assist us against invading the Deutschland

Again, we really arn't in a position to spend 10k worth of troops for something that probably won't work. Once we get them every 6 days and it takes forever to make more troops it might be worth trying (if we are in one of the famous stalemates).

Personally, I want to make a single superheavy, and see how that goes. that would let us test out how effective it is at breaking hard point in enemy defenses.

And would it not be resistant to counter artillery fire because of its range? meaning that its immune to counter battery fire from heavy and light artillery because its has a much longer range. At 12 Km it outranges max range heavy artillery (12km vs 10km) and still hits at 50% strength or it can hit them at 100% out of their 50% range (4Km vs 3km).
So it seems like they would be immune to counter battery fire form other non-superheavy artillery.
so its much less likely to die. and we can use it to pop other artillery with impunity.

just my two cents.

Their strength is also much greater, at least if we get more than one.

It says that it may be ordered in single pieces, not that that is the price for a single piece. It seems the listed stats are for a battery, like everything else. For what it can do, its a fair price to just get 25 of them to see what happens.

Got tired, misread some things >_>. Right. Ignore most things I said about the superheavy gun.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 11:38:38 pm by Stirk »
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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 12:19:24 am »

anyway, I really want to make a superheavy gun so
+1 to the first plan Stirk proposed

I like the plan of pound them to dust with Artillery and slow advance. Throwing men at trenches barely ever made progress that wasn't quickly reversed in WW1.
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Baffler

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 12:40:17 am »

You may actually be right about the trench armor, but I also think people are overestimating artillery's effectiveness. Doing some math...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Doing all that made me realize though, OP is going to have to do all that math at least a dozen times, per turn, and I didn't even factor in things like terrain and morale, which will according to him be pretty major factors in practice. God be with him.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:48:22 am by Baffler »
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Stirk

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Re: Trenchgrind: Marseille
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 12:53:09 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So what do you guys think of my quick and dirty analysis?
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