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[Larix]

I made a lazy not-definitive test by setting (eventually) four dozen naked humans to "train" in Arena mode.

With no starting skills (first two dozen), they used unarmed attacks only - mostly punches, but also a few kicks. They gained very little skill in wrestling itself and never used wrestling moves while i watched.
The second set of two dozen got "proficient" wrestling as only starting skill and grappled each other right away, but then continued by throwing punches again. No training injuries occurred.

It looks like the conflict levels code reserves the dangerous wrestling moves for higher conflict levels (i.e. no pinches/gouging/strangling/throwing in training), but that's just a mild confirmation of what others report from actual fort-mode training (if you want to know for sure what's going on in fort mode, only fort mode itself can be depended on).

Do these different training regimens really make a difference in combat? I only ever seem to face goblins and solitary wandering semimegabeasts, and for those, half a dozen soldiers trained with weapon and full armour all the way for ~a year and a half are more than adequate; i perceive no need for improvement, since i usually have at least two, usually more years before any assaults happen.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

It appears I've made a mistake with my interpretation of Dwarf Therapist's attribute scale. As feelotraveller explained to me, it ranks attributes in relation with the rest of your population.

I'm gonna have to say citation needed on that one.  They look like absolute numbers, right in line with the wiki numbers to me!

[Splint]

Either way this thread has inspired me to train a squad of wrastlers.


And perhaps the conflict level stuff precludes any "potentially lethal" actions? I saw take downs as the norm even in newer versions when something couldn't/opted not to do a joint jock on a grapple, but it was when people got thrown and a body part would skid without at least leather to protect it that the injuries (and in one case, as mentioned, one death,) would occur. Speaking of which, time to fort since I'm now home from work. I'm kind of hoping I get a chance to see a gaggle of drunken brawlers break necks and choke out goblins.

I'm gonna probably have to make this an extended thing. I can't recall how long it was the unit was training, but it was pretty late in the settlement's life.

[Ulfarr]

I'm gonna have to say citation needed on that one.  They look like absolute numbers, right in line with the wiki numbers to me!

Feelotraveller's explanation

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can try to explain it a bit. 

The ranking is not against all dwarfs everywhere but against all creatures in your fortress.

A 97 means that the strength of that dwarf is almost the best attribute score currently in the fortress.  There is some statistical magic at work here since the calculation of that value depends on the scores of all the attributes of all the dwarfs (and friends) in the fort.  And it further depends on how those values are distributed.  (That is, we are talking percentiles not percentages.) So as other dwarfs gain (or lose) attribute points that value can be expected to change.  The values will also change as new citizens arrive or old ones pass on to their ancestors.

The best attribute score in the fortress will always be 100 and 0 will always be the worst (or close to it since there may be more than one of each), no matter how big or small the actual attribute values are. However 50 will not be the (value of 100 + value of 0)/2.  Taking an example from my current fort 100 is 2419 (it's also 2406 but that's just close in actuality),  0 is 238 (twice) and 50 is 1207.  (So there's more low scores than high scores in this fort...)

For purposes of tracking attribute gain or loss you are better off looking at the raw scores. 

Because at the time of the experiment I didn't know that the 0-100 scale was a relative one and I also had issues with DT's export function (it would always crash), I had resorted to taking screenshots. Thus none of my data, on attributes, are on their absolute values and they can't be used to accurately monitor their growth over time.

[h27kim]

DT actually does report the ingame values for attributes, but not in a very obvious way--they show up when you hover your cursor over the numbers:  it'll say things like "1929/1949//very strong" or something like that.  It's a bit tedious, though, and not easy to record them in large numbers.

[feelotraveller]

The other place you can see the raw attributes in DT is in the Dwarf Details window.  (From the menu: Windows -> Docks -> Dwarf Details)  It has the advantage that you can take a screenshot of this if wanted, and the disadvantage that you only see one dwarf at a time.  But it might be easier than hovering over cells and writing down the figures. 

Other than that it would be up to people wanting to see the raw attributes listed in a grid view to ask Clément nicely in the therapist thread if it would be possible to add this.  You never know. 

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

I'm gonna have to say citation needed on that one.  They look like absolute numbers, right in line with the wiki numbers to me!

the 0-100 scale

Ah.  There's the issue!  We where talking about different numbers.  I guess you have DT's "Skill Drawing Method" setting set to Text and that's where you're seeing a 0-100 number?  I usually use Growing Fill and have to use the tooltips to see a number, as mentioned by h27kim.

For what it's worth, I would like to see the 0-100 thing replaced by something like 2.2 signifying a 2200 stat.

[Ulfarr]

Well thanks to Clément, the whole export crash has been solved now, so I can get the full data (including attributes in their absolute values) in a csv and just import them into excell.  Which is great (and easy)

[Sutremaine]

Do these different training regimens really make a difference in combat? I only ever seem to face goblins and solitary wandering semimegabeasts, and for those, half a dozen soldiers trained with weapon and full armour all the way for ~a year and a half are more than adequate; i perceive no need for improvement, since i usually have at least two, usually more years before any assaults happen.

There's a difference, since dwarves and goblins still use unarmed moves even when holding weapon and shield. Whether it's a significant difference or not is up in the air.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

Well, my dwarves have been very busy but, as promised, I have now started training a new batch of military recruits to compare the difference with and without an experienced teacher.

The setup:
10 recruits, split into 2 squads of 5.  Squad A, The Orbs Of Oiling, is lead by a veteran soldier, acting as a drill instructor.  Squad B, The Helmed Bowels, has no instructor.  Each squad has it's own training room and sleeps in a shared barracks.

Recruit Selection:
All recruits have a score of 15 in the "values martial prowess" trait to remove that desire as a variable.  From there, recruits where primarily selected by strength, to help reduce the variables relating to movement speed.  Squad B got the strongest recruit, Squad A got the second strongest, Squad B got the third strongest, and so on.  Looking at the strength, agility, and endurance stats, squad A has the a slightly worse batch of recruits than squad B.  This was done so that we know that, if Squad A pulls ahead of Squad B, it was not likely due to initially  better stats.

It's worth noting that most of the recruits have ranks in marksdwarf and kills.  This comes from grabbing a crossbow and getting on the ramparts when goblins attack.  Besides just taking pot shots at goblins, they have no prior military training.  A few recruits have a few xp from dodging/blocking the occasional stray arrow during goblin attacks.  These recruits are evenly distributed across both squads.


Equipment:
All recruits are equipped with:
Battle Axe
Shield
Helm
Mail Shirt
Gauntlets
Greaves
High Boots

Dwarves are set to replace clothing and wear exact matches only.  All equipment is masterwork quality steel, to eliminate any variables caused by uneven equipment.


The initial stats:


After the first season:


More to come!  I plan to track them over a course of 4 years or so.


Observations at the end of the first season:
Squad A has gained 46 levels scattered across various skills.  Squad B has gained 40 levels across various skills.  Squad A is doing demonstrations and has yet to even start sparring.  Squad B started sparring approximately halfway through the first season.

It's very early in the test yet, but the divergence that already exists in their skills is very interesting to me.

[Colonel Sanders Lite]

I'm breaking the teacher vs no teacher experiment into a separate thread in order that future searchers can can be find it more easily.  You know, instead of being buried in the middle of a largely unrelated thread.

[Ulfarr]

For what it's worth, I agree with your reasoning for separating the teacher/no teacher experiments.

On topic now, I've just finished the first year of experimenting with the wrestler + shiled set up and I believe I already have conclusive results. The set up was the same as the rest of my experiments (full armor, 6 active/1 on leave, absolutely no prior experience) and the results of the 1st year are as follow:

Month  Discipline  Dodger  Shield     6           2.71      0.33     3.57      8           3.58      0.47     4.39

   12           5.35      1.68     5.90     



And...that's it. They haven't trained any other skill but these three, they haven't started sparring and as far as I can tell they haven't had any demonstrations either. On the plus side, they did increase their attributes a bit and most importantly their shield skill is now almost 3 times higher than what the WS dwarves had by the end of the first year.

Comparisson of all squads (in their shared skills)
(WR: wrestlers, WO: weapons only, WS: Weapon + shield, SO: shield only)

Squad  Discipline  Dodger  Shield
WR          6.86      2.86        -
WO          6.00      2.29        -
WS          6.00      1.71      2.14
SO           5.35      1.68      5.90

To be honest, it's quite dissapointing. Maybe if they  weren't completely raw recruits and instead had enough wrestling to spar with, from the begining, it would be worth it as a training regime.

[Sarmatian123]

You training full military Dwarves with 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10 schedule? I think I read somewhere that schedule with 10 Dwarves mostly take part in demonstrations. Not sparring.

Try using my militia 10-2-2-2-2-2-10-2-2-2-2-2 schedule. My militia after reaching lv3/lv4 in weapon skill always is sparing and shooting bolts at archery, which levels up their skills faster. So I hear, but prepare for lower fps as well. Also prepare to delete or renaming the gamelog.txt file often, as it gets in range of 10mb every season from sparing alone. Too large it grows the lower fps you get. Also do share the creepiest, cheapest and most lousy quality weapon and shield that you get named and put into your artifacts listing by those sparring Dwarves. From my experience it takes around 1 year to get most of 10 Dwarves to elite/lord/master rank with their weapons.

Is sparing outperforming teaching? If so, then should teaching maybe be boosted?

[Larix]

You training full military Dwarves with 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10 schedule? I think I read somewhere that schedule with 10 Dwarves mostly take part in demonstrations. Not sparring.

That information is four years obsolete: in older versions, large squads on a unified schedule had trouble getting both sparring and demonstrations going.

I've trained each and every of my militia squads on "minimum 10" in DF2014 and always had massive sparring sessions start after one to two seasons, generally resulting in weaponmasters in a year. "10 minimum" doesn't hinder, let alone prevent sparring (PSA: yes, even if the number of dwarfs in the squad is less than ten, they'll train/spar perfectly adequately with a "min. 10" setting; i always do that and never run into trouble).

@Ulfarr: Can it be that the dwarfs were carrying two shields each? It appears that they blocked their ability to deliver strikes, which seems to be the only attack type skill-less weapon-less dwarfs train by themselves. And did they really not organise demonstrations? That sounds like they weren't properly activated for training and just did spare-time "individual combat drill".

[Ulfarr]

You training full military Dwarves with 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10 schedule? I think I read somewhere that schedule with 10 Dwarves mostly take part in demonstrations. Not sparring.

Is sparing outperforming teaching? If so, then should teaching maybe be boosted?

I use a 6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6 schedule (if you mean the number of active dwarves each month) with 7 dwarves/squad. I use the exact schedule on 3 other squads and they do both sparring and demonstrations, so it works properly. You should follow Colonel Sanders Lite's thread for more info about teaching, I haven't done any science with teaching so far.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169487.0

@Ulfarr: Can it be that the dwarfs were carrying two shields each? It appears that they blocked their ability to deliver strikes, which seems to be the only attack type skill-less weapon-less dwarfs train by themselves. And did they really not organise demonstrations? That sounds like they weren't properly activated for training and just did spare-time "individual combat drill".

No, I don't think they used dual shields (but I didn't check that to be honest). Also, I'm NOT 100% sure that they didn't do any demonstrations but I just never saw them do any. Every time I would check on them, they (all of the active ones)  would always do individual drills. And they were properly activated (or at least they showed as activated on the {s}quad screen).

I think dwarves* would teach themselves only the skills they need for their current equipment during the first months of their training, at least until they are forced to use new skills due to sparring. Yet to start sparring they need a certain level (maybe a combination ) of fighter/striker/weapon/wrestler, and since they haven't teach themselves these skills they never sparred and just stuck with their individual drills.

*Without initial attacking skills or maybe a veteran to teach them.

Of note is 1) 1-2 months after I removed their shields from their uniform they would start sparing as wrestlers (with only dabbling striker and fighter) 2) when I gave my legendary wrestler squad, shields they started sparring (again) after only doing a few demonstrations with it (it took them about a month for that).