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Author Topic: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - GAME OVER  (Read 47262 times)

evictedSaint

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #375 on: March 02, 2018, 01:04:01 pm »

eS, could we use the Espionage Credit to make a small modification to the Emu or another Nogranian design small enough it doesn´t get observed during quality control but would allow us to bring the gun to court? Like, a creative use of the EC, as stressed in the OP.
No

Quote
Also, can the Emu crack Thin armor?

Yes.

Wizgrot

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #376 on: March 02, 2018, 02:08:32 pm »

Shit, I meant Light Armor. Can it crack that too?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 02:11:59 pm by Wizgrot »
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evictedSaint

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #377 on: March 02, 2018, 02:19:55 pm »

Shit, I meant Light Armor. Can it crack that too?

At close range, yes. Penetration drops off quickly though.

Wizgrot

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #378 on: March 02, 2018, 02:49:49 pm »

My problems with the helicopter design

-The design pool is considerably lower (1,2,2,3) than the revision pool(1,2,4,6). In order to have an effective design and since we are not inventing any new tech, I would suggest leaving the helicopter for the revision.

-Thin armor was sufficient last turn. Now, with the introduction of the Emu, rounds will punch right through it like it was made of toiler paper. We need to slope the Thin armor want to have a chance to ricochet the rounds. Putting it only in the cockpit won´t matter much if our engines are filled with holes.

-We don´t need an specialized grenade launcher for the helicopter. Doing so only increases difficulty for marginal gain. Putting a front one in a turret would allow us much more flexibility than two fixed ones. Also, better strafing runs.

-Since it is an assault helicopter, I would suggest specifying the rockets as Jin Na, in a 3*3 rocket pod.

-If we make a revision, we can add as a side project the retrofitting of engines to the Dogbiter, Qui-chu and Paoquie Guansi. This would improve the speed of the latter (making it useful in the sea) and cheapen the Oil cost of the others, allowing them to drop to Expensive Levels. Even if the heli doesn´t goes very good, this would be a huge advantage. Please, consider it.

-In addition to that, we need a bigger cannon, both in land and in the sea if we hope to match their dukes. Yes, we might not get either the autocharger or the recoil system with the rolls we have, but even an increase in size would allow us to fill a huge gap in our military.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 02:52:28 pm by Wizgrot »
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Detoxicated

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #379 on: March 02, 2018, 03:20:19 pm »

Research credit: detoxicated
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Pavellius

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #380 on: March 02, 2018, 07:15:45 pm »

Quote from: votebox
Design
Leaping Frog "Chuí rén":(1) Detoxicated
Zhao De Artillery Cannon:(2) Wizgrot,Rockeater
Xi-52-02 Xīwàng Kèzhì Xuá-Zhï: (4) Thanik, SC, Taricus, Pavellius
Credit
Research: (1) Detoxicated
Espionage: (1) Pavellius
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evictedSaint

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #381 on: March 02, 2018, 10:05:29 pm »

Xi-52-02 Xīwàng Kèzhì Xuá-Zhí
Following the experience gained during the construction of the Xiwang and it's operation, the 52-02 Kèzhì seeks to provide a more effective combat platform in the skies before it's eventual usage in open combat - as the original was rated as unfit for service given it's troublesome handling, lack of even minimal armor and unflattering armament. The craft's turboshaft is moved to the rear of the helicopterand is fed by two intake located above the cockpit. The exhaust system directly vents gases from the engine out the back of the helicopter to improve thrust, however slightly. In it's new location the engine now helps balance the craft as it counterweights the cockpit. The overall shape of the craft is streamlined and the cockpit is rearranged into a twin-seat tandem layout with the gunner positioned behind the pilot, lightening the cockpit and bettering it's sloping so as to help against machine gun fire. The craft's hull is made so as to be equivalent to thin armoring, stopping rifle rounds at range. The craft is once again to be fitted with rocket pods on the sides, above the grenade launchers, which are now named the Type-52C (Chēliàng) RGL; fitted with belts, longer barrels and which fire a new higher velocity HEDP grenade, meant to give vehicle mounted launchers and emplacements in general better capabilities in combat.

Design priorities:
1. Make the craft much easier to control and improve balance so it isn't like a potato in the air. (!!!) This should also allow us to mount rocket pods on the thing like originally planned due to moving the engines.
2. Thin armoring all round (literally just a few mm)
3. Improve the RGLs on the thing to improve accuracy if nothing else. Increase ammunition capacity to at least 120 grenades, which shouldn't be too hard seeing as planes host a similar amount of autocannon rounds and we won't be burning through them nearly as fast.

Normal Difficulty: 2

The Xi-52-02 Xīwàng Kèzhì Xuá-Zhí is a redesign of our previous attack helicopter, differing from the latter primarily by restructuring where the pilots and engine are located.  The engine is now located above and behind the rotor.  The exhaust is directed rearwards to help bolster speed, and the dual intakes are above the pilots canopy to avoid sucking in rocket exhaust.  The cockpit is rearranged to have the gunner seated behind the pilot; this narrows the profile of the helicopter, and due to the overall restructuring gives the pilot a greater field of vision.  The body of the helicopter is now Thin armor all around.  Either two clusters of four Jin Na rockets or two RGL's can be attached to the stubby wings jutting off the body of the helicopter, though both armaments are rather limited in ammo supply.

The pilot must still be careful when piloting, as we did not have time to develop self-stabilizing features this turn and the helicopter will continue to rely on the pilot for proper balance.  We also failed to develop HEDP grenades or redesign the RGL attachments. 4 Ore, 4 Oil, 1 Cobalt, 1 Aluminum.

Light forger

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #382 on: March 02, 2018, 11:00:40 pm »

Type-53 "Zàn" Anti-Vehicle Rifle
Making use of the apparent strength of the RGL action the Type-53 is a 15mm semi-automatic rifle. True to it's name the rifle is able to defeat light armor out long range although the able to use this is limited by our current lack of scopes. While destroying enemy walkers is common use the rifle should also be quite effective at taking out enemy helicopters. The rifle is more our less unchanged from the RGL outside of a lengthen barrel. If time permitts the rifle is to be fitted with a padded stock and muzzle break, if the heavens truly smile upon us the belt feed for vehicle use.
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Thanik

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #383 on: March 03, 2018, 04:36:01 am »

Type-53 "Zàn" Anti-Vehicle Rifle
Making use of the apparent strength of the RGL action the Type-53 is a 15mm semi-automatic rifle. True to it's name the rifle is able to defeat light armor out long range although the able to use this is limited by our current lack of scopes. While destroying enemy walkers is common use the rifle should also be quite effective at taking out enemy helicopters. The rifle is more our less unchanged from the RGL outside of a lengthen barrel. If time permitts the rifle is to be fitted with a padded stock and muzzle break, if the heavens truly smile upon us the belt feed for vehicle use.

While I can see the benefit in having a dedicated anti-materiel rifle, I believe stealing their machine gun would bring a higher advantage in the same field while also having other uses. We could do one of two things - revision an autoloading 75mm cannon for our Hexapod and our ships, revision more efficient engines for everything - potentially bringing down the cost of the Qui-Chi, Xiwang Kezhi and maybe the Piāoqiè (depending on if we can drop from 3 to 2 Oil).

Sure, we could do other stuff too - further work on the helicopter, revision the Hexapod into a more effective light tank, make our own crank-actuated MG from our semi-automatic, develop a transport helicopter from the Zhish; but note most of this won't be as effective as the above listed revisions  term of bringing an advantage to our side. The engine revision should, optimally, give us much more powerful, reliable engines for all our shit.

Therefore, I propose an engine revision:
Xi-53 Xìnlài de-series Turbine Engines
Development time is dedicated to replacing the engines in our military vehicles (all of varying quality) with modern turboshafts so as to both increase their fuel efficiency exponentially (both via increased burn efficiency and incorporating more potential fuels, using experience from working on the Zhish). By incorporating inter-cooling, regeneration, and reheating the simple-cycle efficiencies of our gas turbines are expected to practically double, and by incorporating a combined-cycle the engine, where-in after completing its cycle (in the first engine), the temperature of the working fluid engine is still high enough that a second subsequent heat engine may extract energy from the waste heat that the first engine produced. By combining these multiple streams of work upon a single mechanical shaft turning an electric generator, the overall net efficiency of the system may be increased by 50-60%. Additionally, reliability improvements are also introduced based on the development of the turbine engine used in the Zhish, resulting in more reliable powerplants.

In a closed cycle gas turbine such as the Zhish, the exhaust gas is used in an heat exchanger, and as a result the working fluid is reusable. It is also a clean cycle as the working fluid is recirculated. Regeneration process involves the installation of a heat exchanger in the gas turbine cycle, which is used to extract the heat from the exhaust gas, which is then used to heat the compressed air. Intercooling is incorporated in the form of a heat exchanger which is used to cool the compressor gases at the time of compression. When the compressor involves a high and low pressure compressor, as it does in almost all gas turbines, the intercooler is installed between them to cool down the flow. This cooling process will decrease the work needed for the compression in the high pressure unit, resulting in a higher output per mass flow for the fuel. Reheating is applied in a gas turbine in such a way that it increases the turbine work without increasing the compressor work or melting the turbine materials. A reheater is applied in a gas turbine between the high and low pressure compressor and increases the turbine work without increasing the compressor work or melting the turbine materials. Generally, it's a combustor which reheats the flow between the high and low pressure turbines, again, improving the thrust-to-weight ratio. By itself, they would not necessarily increase the thermal efficiency, however, when intercooling or reheat is used in conjunction with heat regeneration, a significant increase in thermal efficiency can be achieved and the net work output is also increased. All three are simple concepts incorporated in early turboshafts to greatly increase their efficiency. A simple tuned pipe-type muffler (tuned pipe exhaust - also basically an aero turbine muffler) is also added to reduce noise levels, where-in the pipe has a resonant frequency of operation, and when the engine is operating at that speed, the muffler causes a timed partial vacuum at the engine's exhaust port, helping the engine vent exhaust gasses. The net result is a boost of power at that operating speed due to the engine breathing better, a couple of percent worth of fuel efficiency, as well as producing less overall noise.

The net result is cheaper (at least by 1 Oil), more powerful engines for all our military vehicles, with the Xīwàng Kèzhì, Piāoqiè guānsī and Qi-Chu having the most priority, but work is to be done on incorporating the new engine know-how to the Dogbite and Yāngē, since the same concepts apply and are easier to implement there due to their size.

Engines are to be listed as X53XLAI-A / L / N (Implementation Number, First letter of name), for example, X53XLAI-L1Q for the Qi-Chu and X53XLAI-L1P for the Piāoqiè. Same named vehicles have the second letter added to differentiate between them, as in X53XLAI-A1XI for the Xiwang Kezhi as opposed to X53XLAI-A1X for the original Xiwang (of course, since we won't be using the latter, the abbrevation XK is to be used for the Xiwang Kezhi).

tl;dr The goal of the revision is to create more fuel efficient turboshaft engines to reduce the cost of our stuff (!!!), by at least using the engine from the Zhish and refitting it to everything else, or alternatively by improving it via the above method to create both a more fuel efficient and more powerful engine for the same size.

Estimated Difficulty: Hard
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 05:50:26 am by Thanik »
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Noble Nafuni Engineer

Wizgrot

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #384 on: March 03, 2018, 06:50:16 am »

Propposal to be incorporated to the revision

Along with the engine, we have developed an antinoise generator for our helicopter. It consists of two loudspeakers in the back of vehicle, orientated to face the exhaust. The two loudspeakers can be controlled by the copilot in the cockpit by three buttons. The first button silences the loudspeakers. The second, makes the emit a sound in the same frequency and decibels of our engine noises, negating it through destructive interference. The third and last, meant to be used in combat situations when concealment has been compromised, tries to apply interference to engine noise in order to make it as loud as painful to hear, in order to seed confusion among enemy troops. As the old saying goes: “They can´t shoot you if they are bleeding through their ears”
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Thanik

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #385 on: March 03, 2018, 06:54:10 am »

Propposal to be incorporated to the revision

Along with the engine, we have developed an antinoise generator for our helicopter. It consists of two loudspeakers in the back of vehicle, orientated to face the exhaust. The two loudspeakers can be controlled by the copilot in the cockpit by three buttons. The first button silences the loudspeakers. The second, makes the emit a sound in the same frequency and decibels of our engine noises, negating it through destructive interference. The third and last, meant to be used in combat situations when concealment has been compromised, tries to apply interference to engine noise in order to make it as loud as painful to hear, in order to seed confusion among enemy troops. As the old saying goes: “They can´t shoot you if they are bleeding through their ears”

That's both risking feature creep and isn't going to be massively effective in all directions. I believe the current revision is enough for Hard difficulty.
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Noble Nafuni Engineer

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #386 on: March 03, 2018, 08:17:36 am »

What are the "Duke" AP capabilities.
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Damnit people, this is why I said to keep the truce. Because now everyone's ganging up on the cats.
Also, don't forget to contact your local Eldritch Being(s), so that they can help with our mission to destroy the universe.

Wizgrot

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #387 on: March 03, 2018, 09:03:00 am »

The Olympic (inspired by RAM´s idea of Bronze Medal Engine)

The Olympic is a revamped version of our previously developed engine for the Xi-52-02, designed to be compatible (although with variable size and purpose) with all our previous vehicles using outdated turboshafts or steam/diesel engines. In order to increase efficiency, it makes as much use as it can of combined cycle fuel burning, as well as reheating and intercooling in order to avoid as much waste heat as possible, boosting its efficiency and power.

The standardization mainly focuses on increasing the fuel efficiency in the Xi-52-O2, as well as the Paoquié guansí and Qui-Chu, in order to decrease their fuel costs. However, we have selected to go the other way with our Naval designs, improving the power and speed of the Dogbiter, Yangé and Ziyoú. We also hope to apply Light armor to the Xi-52-O2, with the refitted engines, in order for it to resist Emu rounds.
Along with the engine, we have developed an antinoise generator (active muffler system) for our helicopter. It consists of two loudspeakers near the end of the exhaust tube, inside the air chamber and proofed against heat and smoke. The two loudspeakers can be controlled by the copilot in the cockpit by three buttons. The first button silences the loudspeakers. The second, makes the emit a sound in the same frequency and decibels of our engine noises, negating it through destructive interference. The third and last, meant to be used in combat situations when concealment has been compromised, tries to apply interference to engine noise in order to make it as loud as painful to hear, in order to seed confusion among enemy troops. As the old saying goes: “They can´t shoot you if they are bleeding through their ears”.

In the side of every engine, there is the engraved head of the Toskeshian Bronze Medal of javelin throwing in the 1952 Summer Olympics.


Rockeater question


It can penetrate Light armor like it is nothing,(don´t know much about Medium) but Heavy rounds can deflect it as long as they are not in point-blank range or hit in a specific angle.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 10:22:19 am by Wizgrot »
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Wizgrot

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #388 on: March 03, 2018, 11:57:43 am »

Quote from: votebox
Revision
Xi-53 Xìnlài de-series Turbine Engines:(1) Thanik
The Olympic Engine:(1) Wizgrot
Credit
Research: (1) Detoxicated
Espionage: (2) Pavellius, Wizgrot
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 12:03:02 pm by Wizgrot »
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Rockeater

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Re: Arms Race: Iron Behemoths - Toskesh - Turn 9, Spring 1953
« Reply #389 on: March 03, 2018, 12:02:42 pm »

Quote from: votebox
Revision
Xi-53 Xìnlài de-series Turbine Engines:(1) Jihadilla
The Olympic Engine:(1) Wizgrot
Credit
Research: (1) Detoxicated
Espionage: (3) Pavellius, Wizgrot,Rockeater
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Damnit people, this is why I said to keep the truce. Because now everyone's ganging up on the cats.
Also, don't forget to contact your local Eldritch Being(s), so that they can help with our mission to destroy the universe.
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