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[Duuvian]

I just had a conversation with my brother about the obvious fact that the Empire is species-ist.
Somehow it got to the point that I screamed for the first time in over a year, just, absolutely screaming at full volume into my laptop.  Since my housemates are away.

It's fine.  We uh, talked it out.
Damn it felt good, though.

This guy used to be the example for the Imperials being speciesist.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mitth%27raw%27nuruodo

I looked at the article to find if it pointed him out as the only non-human of significant rank in the Empire, which was the case in the EU.

Instead I am greatly impressed by how much the Disneyverse has been fleshed out by non-movie works, judging from that article alone. Perhaps I have been wrong to judge the whole Disney canon by the episodes; I suppose it would be only fair to at least check out the non-movie materials (for free from a library or something) before I complain about the whole new canon.

I also agree with this, because Zahn's Thrawn series were the first EU books I read:

Grand Admiral Thrawn was created by author Timothy Zahn as an antagonist in the 1991 novel Heir to the Empire, the first installment of Star Wars: The Thrawn Trilogy.[38] IGN has asserted that the character "essentially kicked off the wave of Expanded Universe novels,"[39] while Empire Online credited Thrawn with doing "much to revitalize and legitmise [sic] Star Wars fiction… at a time when the franchise was in danger of dying."[40] He remained popular for years, and in 2016, Zahn described it as "highly gratifying" that Thrawn "captured the imaginations of so many people over the past quarter century."[41]

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post edit:

Well to summarize,

I agree with your summary except that Rose Tico doesn't seem like a particularly Japanese sounding name to me but I'm no expert. I just played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and I would say it would fit HK maybe? I learned English names are somewhat common in HK accompanying a Chinese (Cantonese? Unsure what is appropriate distinction) family name, though Tico doesn't jump out to me as any suggestion towards any ethnicity in particular; I would guess Finnish or a latin root language if I absolutely had to. Wouldn't make sense for the Kamikaze analogue but I feel that aspect might have been reading too much into it. The rest though I agree with you sounds poorly visualized and nonsensical.

EDIT: Good guess

Costa Ricans
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[Reelya]

I agree with your summary except that Rose Tico doesn't seem like a particularly Japanese sounding name to me but I'm no expert. I just played Shadowrun: Hong Kong and I would say it would fit HK maybe? I learned English names are somewhat common in HK accompanying a Chinese (Cantonese? Unsure what is appropriate distinction) family name, though Tico doesn't jump out to me as any suggestion towards any ethnicity in particular; I would guess Finnish or a latin root language if I absolutely had to. Wouldn't make sense for the Kamikaze analogue but I feel that aspect might have been reading too much into it. The rest though I agree with you sounds poorly visualized and nonsensical.

It's the consonant-vowel repeated pattern that resembles Japanese. Japanese is a syllabary, so it's always made up of consonant-vowel sections (other than n, which can float at the end). "ko" is a very common name-ending in Japanese, examples including Aiko, Akako, Akiko, or this one girl from an anime, nicknamed "Teko". Th point is, it's very close to the Japanese word structure, especially with a "ko" sound at the end, more than any other east Asian language, which she clearly resembles. There's also the fact that the bomber flown in the movie is directly based off a WWII bomber, even the name is near identical. So the director has an Asian person with an off-brand Japanese sounding last name commit a kamikaze attack in a bomber named after a real one from WWII. It's either deliberately what he had in mind, or he's dense as fuck. Just think - (1) Asian person (2) WWII Bomber (3) Suicide mission. You don't even need the name for this to already be sketchy.

As for the first names of her and her sister, Rose and Paige, are Rian Johnson's choices, basically because he is terrible at names. These do not fit the theme of the setting at all. Nobody in Star Wars should have names that reference things that exist on Earth. Why is she called Rose? Do they have roses in this galaxy?

[Duuvian]

I agree but it's spelled with a co not ko or I would have agreed that it sounds Japanese and thus a kamikaze stereotype. I suppose we are both right; such is the internet

Good point about Rose, I was going to point out Luke and Han being real world names but she's named after a flower. I mean though technically they are speaking Galactic Basic?

Idea strikes

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rose_(flower)

Rose (flower)
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This article is about the type of flower. You may be looking for Rose Tico, a member of the Resistance.

The rose was a type of flower. It was occasionally used in wedding bouquets.[1]

Types of roses included:

    Ithorian rose[2]
    Jade rose[3]
    Malreaux rose[4]
    A type of purple rose native to Endor[1]\

 I'm defending a Disney episode here! Auugh I'm bailing out!

*crashes trench run*

[Reelya]

Luke is called Luke because George Lucas. Luke S. It's that simple.

Han was used because that's not a familiar name to Americans, it's alien but not too hard. Leia isn't a common name either.

But my point was that Rose is a thing - people called Rose are named after the flower. It's not that it's a Earth Name, it's referencing a thing on Earth.

EDIT: those rose references don't hold, they're EU, which doesn't include TLJ the movie. And, just calling a flower a Rose in Star Wars looks like lazy writing on behalf of some of those novels or whatever. Quality control is weak in the borderlands, but there's no reason for something like that in the main movies.

It really makes no sense, why would you have a flower called an "Ithorian rose" from a specific planet, if you didn't also have one just called a "rose". This is sloppy writing, that's all.

[Duuvian]

Fair enough but wouldn't her name in basic just be the name of a flower in basic that looks like a rose and smells like a rose but is not Rose?

EDIT: Dang I want to use the saying about a Rose by any other name because it would be PERFECT if I had the right context to drop such a sick pun

but this is about Disney *intense nerdface*

[Reelya]

But there's no reason to translate names in the movie. You'd assume that if she's called Rose in the film that's her real name. If she's named after a flower then just call her that. It's not an actual rose, so that still wouldn't make sense.

[Duuvian]

Star Wars stereotype
though not obvious at first
has now been explained

quick how many syllables is stereotype

I do still think it's reading too much into it past maybe they could have named her better I guess. I don't like Disney's Star Wars episodes at all but I don't think it was INTENDED as a sort of open secret racism. Though yes I agree that since it can be viewed as such, a suicide run in a bomber is a DUMB PLACE for an actor or actress of East-Asian descent to be put in a Star Wars movie.

EDIT: Took out a joke that sounded snarky without intending it to

[Starver]

Getting in on the Gravity Bomber, this is my read:

• There exists artificial gravity in (virtually?[1]) all craft.
• This pervades the whole 'shell' of the craft, by design, including any bays with atmospheric force-field separating the insides from space[2].
• The 'bomber' uses this effect to 'gravitationally eject' its bomb-load 'passively' without the use of active projectile/missile propulsion that (maybe?) is more detectable or counterable[3] under *hand-wavy* in-universe technical limitations.

An alternate explanation is that only these bombers, with their 'cartridge' bomb-rack units, have a good enough carrying capacity vs size to be considered able to accomplish the mission (amongst all vessels available at that time).

Plus, the concept of 'orbits' is fairly unknown to 'Wars. It's arguable even if that's the real reason for the slow approach of the DS around Yavin to target Y4 (*hand-wavy limitations about reliably hyperspacing directly to accurate points within a gravitational system*[4] ) and not just a sublight movement from an obscured position to a firing one. The 'shield gate' above Scarif (Rogue One - and I'm sure they pinched that idea from Spaceballs: The Movie...) seems to be 'geo'stationary, but not (making assumptions about planetary rotation speed) actually at geosynchronous orbital height. Ships and stations seem to have a habit of ignoring orbits[5] or gravity almost at will, and planetary gravity without centripetal orbital out-fling in exact opposition would give further (reduced, compared to surface-level) gravity to further accelerate the bombs once released.


...but that's just my head-canon as to why these tactics apply in these circumstances (and not some of the more obvious ones, like as mentioned or alluded to in the footnotes bow, especially). I agree it's quite silly 'IRL', but republics and empires and confederations and the rest alike, that long ago and that far away, seem to mostly stick to paradigms where Hodor Manoeuvers are the almost unknown exception and far from the rule, and battle each other on the almost blinded assumption that their opponent is using the exact same philosophy, give or take a Super/Megaweapon or thres...


[1] No reason to believe it doesn't exist in single-seat fighter cockpits, like Ties or *-Wings. Unless any EU material ever depicts floating things/bodily fluids, and even then that could be an AG failure, not the total lack of it. It's probably even adjusting (or automatically self-consistent, regardless of the external forces) to allow those high-G, negative-G and torsioning yawing and rolling manouevers to be undertaken by pilots, much the same as the Inertial Dampeners in the 'Trek universe. The skill to flying might be more about how to 'feel' your movement properly and fly by the seat of your pants when you have no direct personal inertial cues (apart from momentarily undampened vibrations from micrometeorite impacts or atmospheric turbulence, whenever they happen).

[2] Must check footage of (say) un-forced docking of ships in Death Star-like landing bays to see if they assume the ship is weightless to space, but then has to 'hover down' onto its landing gear once inside, and how they transition (a firm limit boundary passing across their body as they pass through the air-bulkhead, or a gradient, or a lobe extended) but this might be complicated by tractor-beam technology automagically helping the 'raw' transition.

[3] Ship propulsion, and in-ship inertial/gravitational fields are somehow less un-stealthy than projectile or missile launchers. Because. (The 'submarine scene' with the Falcon gone to ground in the asteroid 'cave that isn't a cave' comes to mind as a time when they even hushed their voices, at least temporarily, but that could be more psychological (in-universe, as well as filmically) than practical.)

[4] Or possible tactical reasons in case the planet-killing not-a-moon should be sufficiently wary of not-a-moon-killing weapons possibly fired directly from the moon-planet, even for the highly over-engineered defences of the DS. Before it is more locally scanned and deemed militarily safe according to standard Imperial military doctrine.

[5] There is no sign (that I am aware of) that any sneak attack upon an 'orbital' installation was ever made by taking heavy/explosive projectiles to the antipodal point from the target and boosting them away over any/all possible intersecting orbits. And near-intersections, to catch any attempt to move the target out of the way of any detected incoming threats, perhaps even deliberately made detectable and set to 'herd' the installation into the zone the true destruction will rain upon. And setting a small but deliberately 'stealthed' (painted and/or shielded) asteroid in counter-orbital collision to a target might be a very good stood-off attack vector, compared with sending a crewed vessel in at virtually 'docking speed' in a near-suicidal deliver-then-depart bombing run.

[scriver]

This is a lot of energy spent on something as minor as the bomb thing. Nit-Picking (and Re-nit-picking!).

It's been a while since I saw the movie, but the bomb thing is by far not one of the things I remember as most bad about it. In fact, I don't remember if I thought anything at all about it at the time. So I'm gonna say it gets a pass from here.

There are far worse things to dislike in that sequence alone. Such as Pilot-guy's suicidal attack and success, forced just to heavy-handedly set up for point prove in what is essentially a huge strawman narrative -- a "strawman construction" rather than a trope deconstruction. Or the awful dialogue between pilot-guy and Imperial Over-Admiral guy that just serves to undermine the villains and make them seem blundering and incapable in a story which hinges on the villains being capable and threatening and literally looming over the main characters.

Complaining about Rose being a name is also meaningless and dumb. Star Wars is not hard with linguistics. There's absolutely no reason Rose couldn't be a name. Paige, yeah ok, less fitting -- on the level of naming a character Kyle or something similarly stupid ( ). But Rose, being a direct object-name in English, is just fine.

Trying to say that rose shouldn't be a word because the Galaxy Far Far Away isn't Earth and thus wouldn't have roses is nonsensical. They also shouldn't have ships and sabres and anything that's a word in English. But being that anal about things are not good world-building. It's unnecessarily convoluted world-building. Far-Far-Away-Land has roses because we have roses. It has dragons because we have dragons. It has knights and cantinas and ratsbecause we have knights and cantinas and rats. Because we need to use our words for our things to establish understanding of what their things are.

[Telgin]

It makes sense if it was added so he could go to Dagobah but still pretty well explained in the lore. I can't remember if Z-95 Headhunters had hyperdrive but that was Intek's predecessor the X-Wing irc. I think the Rebel Alliance/New Republic even put a hyperdrive on the A-Wing and that was their budget starfighter up until maybe the Z-wing which was fairly late in the EU, around the time of the yuuzhon Vong.

Z-95s had hyperdrives in the X-Wing games series at least, in so far as that can be considered canon.  They were essentially prototype / old x-wings.  All the same features, just not as good.

It does make sense for the more sophisticated starfighters to have hyperdrives based on how things have been explained in the expanded universe and kept by Disney canon, but I can easily see it being one of those things that was just shoved in after George Lucas realized that Luke had to have one to make it between star systems in his x-wing.

It could be a reasonable technological advancement.  In the prequel trilogy it appears that some single-man starships require the booster rings to enter hyperspace.

Actually, I hope that if Disney does anything with the canon, they'll get rid of the bizarre thousands of years of technological stagnation that apparently plagues the Star Wars universe.  Supposedly astromech droids have been around that long based on some old canon, probably among many other things like it.

[Starver]

This is a lot of energy spent on something as minor as the bomb thing. Nit-Picking (and Re-nit-picking!).

The thinking energy was minimal (just too obviously follows from Known Facts™) but then I had to coalesce it into sufficient words to tie up the package so that it arrived in other minds without too much loss of supporting evidence.


Rose's name? Well "Ben" Kenobi isn't using our familiar contraction of the biblical name, but some sort of derivation of "Obi Wan", and "Luke" probably has as little connection as Sheev/Padmé  - before or after the translator-microbes allowed us to understand most of this historic documentary series without subtitles.

It's a name (coloured by a side-form of onomatopoeia and/or reversed nominative-determinism[1]) and a 'better' name than something like "Bannakaffalatta". If it had been spelt "Rhôz", would it have been better? Worse?


[1] Which we can perhaps blame on the microbes being overtly kind to us in conveying her name-nature. Maybe if we'd used them at full-strength with the Greek myths we'd have been directly talking about how Swollen-Foot had killed his father and married his mother, etc.

[scriver]

This is a lot of energy spent on something as minor as the bomb thing. Nit-Picking (and Re-nit-picking!).

The thinking energy was minimal (just too obviously follows from Known Facts™) but then I had to coalesce it into sufficient words to tie up the package so that it arrived in other minds without too much loss of supporting evidence.

I wasn't responding just to you but also Reelya and Duuvian by the way.

[Rolan7]

The Holdo maneuver is *fine*.  Hyperspace travel is handwavey magic (like the rest of the setting), there's no reason to think it's a reliable attack vector or would work with smaller craft.  It's all about charting through gravity wells, so for all we know a large vessel would just deflect even a miraculously well-calculated attack-jump.

It worked because it was a heroic sacrifice.  The setting serves the narrative - even in the EU, which is different canon from the movies, the Force almost explicitly changes reality to serve destiny.

The bombers worked because Star Wars is WW2 dogfighting in space, and yeah - artificial gravity is a thing.  That movie didn't invent bombers in Star Wars, jeez.  The movie has plenty of issues without nitpicking that stuff.

I just had a conversation with my brother about the obvious fact that the Empire is species-ist.

Okay but seriously - his argument was that the Empire only recruits humans, and only of the exact correct height and shape, so they can mass-produce one identical model of stormtrooper armor.

I lost my shit when I pointed out how many aliens have the same general profile as humans, and would fit in the armor.  Not to mention that it's downright silly to limit recruiting to such an extent.  It's so dumb.  They're obviously speciesist, they're literally space nazis, why the hell does he insist on defending the fucking Empire??  fuck.

[scriver]

That is indeed a nonsensical argument, though I could see an argument that they're more like oppressive imperialist/"keep all other species third class citizens" kind of imperialists rather than the "exterminate all other species" kind of imperialist.

[Telgin]

There's really no logistical reason for the Empire to only use humans in its military, agreed.  The explanation that I've heard was that it was just easier and cheaper to film everything that way in a New Hope, so they stuck with it and later on came up with the emperor being speciest as an explanation.

It kind of works, even if it really doesn't make a ton of sense for Palpatine to make the empire so speciest.  That doesn't make the Empire stronger or give him more power, though maybe having hatred for non humans gives him something to channel for the dark side.  The empire doesn't seem to really ham up internal division and paint aliens as some "other" to give its citizens a designated target, since the Rebellion already fills that role anyway, and aliens are definitely citizens of the Empire.