Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

No, they basically reset everything that happened in this movie, you really didn't pick that up.

The specific fleets in question only existed during this movie, they were destroyed. But they were also concocted for this specific movie. It's symbolized by Holdo's death. She was concocted for this movie, is synonymous with the fleet, and dies along with it. Since she had no history at all, trying to wring some emotion out of her death is like trying to wring blood from a stone. Han being frozen mattered because he was an established, core character. The core characters are what actually matters, not some bullshit about the First Order. What irreversible thing happened to Finn, for example? Did Finn even need to be in this movie? The outcome of the movie would have been the same if Finn happened to be off on a Rebel holiday cruise somewhere and met Rose there, and comes back at the end going "did I miss anything?"

Rian Johnson was clearly given some specific directions. Get rid of snoke, and the whole team needs to be together at the end to fly off into the sunset for the next movie. That's it, that's the entire relevance of this plot to the next movie, more or less, though they'll stretch out some of the dialogue to band-aid over any seams.

[Puzzlemaker]

Rather than failed outcomes, the problem was that none of the stuff really mattered.

Compare to Empire Strikes Back, there was stuff that monumentally went wrong, but it also mattered and had consequences going beyond that movie. e.g. what's the equivalent to luke getting his hand cut off, or han getting frozen in carbonite? Killing un-named rebels en masse isn't a meaningful plot, nor is bringing in a new character deliberately for them to be killed off in the same episode. That's sitcom type writing.

They act like the idea of ups and downs is "new" to the franchise. It's just not. Tons of things go wrong for everyone in the prequels, Empire Strikes Back is full of things going wrong for the good guys. This current movie just wasn't well done. There were no specific expectations because every preceding Star Wars movie has in fact been pretty different in it's character outcomes. I mean, in the prequels where exactly is the "everything worked out for the band of heroes" narrative. It isn't there. Both good guys and bad guys get killed all the time.

The point is, too many plot threads were started, and then just abort without any real pay-off for the audience, either negative or positive. For example, for the failed hacking mission, they fail, however they're saved at the last moment by a Deus Ex Machina. That's ... not any better, nor is it new to the series. It's no different to R2 getting them out of the trash compactor. Except the trash compactor scene was actually cool.

Yeah, this.  Many of the plot threads could have just not happened, and it wouldn't change anything.  That's the problem I had.  Failed plans should still move the plot forward.

[Kot]

But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine.  I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that.  That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot. 

Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
But hey, gotta have some strong female characters. Ackbar died for this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

No, they basically reset everything that happened in this movie, you really didn't pick that up.

The specific fleets in question only existed during this movie, they were destroyed. But they were also concocted for this specific movie. It's symbolized by Holdo's death. She was concocted for this movie, is synonymous with the fleet, and dies along with it. Since she had no history at all, trying to wring some emotion out of her death is like trying to wring blood from a stone. Han being frozen mattered because he was an established, core character. The care characters are what actually matters, not some bullshit about the First Order.

Rian Johnson was clearly given some specific directions. Get rid of snoke, and the whole team needs to be together at the end to fly off into the sunset for the next movie. That's it, that's the entire relevance of this plot to the next movie, more or less, though they'll stretch out some of the dialogue to band-aid over any seams.

Uh-huh. All an artless conspiracy, I'm sure.

There's no point to this. Star Wars has a lot of potential as a franchise, but it falls to the old curse perhaps more strongly than any other major media series. Can't do anything new without pissing off Special Edition boxset owners, can't do anything old without facing the reality that you can't make the same novelty happen twice.

[Reelya]

I don't care about any of that. I just want something that stands up as an "ok" movie by itself. TLJ wasn't that. Force Awakens wasn't that either. These are not movies that would sell tickets without the name attached. The name isn't the curse dragging these movies down, it's only thing letting them float.

There are a ton of low-budget sci-fi movies I like more than these, and they're not heroic adventures, they're just better movies. And I'm not expecting a masterpiece from a star wars movie, just one that would stand up against some no-name movie as being passable.

TLJ was just dreary. The entire "space chase" that the core narrative was built around was just excruciatingly boring and drawn out. It just has a very dull plot structure, with bells tacked on. Basically they attached the pointless side plots because of how boring the main storyline actually was, and it's structured in a way that everything hangs off the "space chase". Also, if they're going for the tension from the space chase thing, it was a monumental mistake to insert the whole comedic casino adventure in the middle of that. Being able to divert to a casino adventure in the middle of a tense chase and still catch back up with the chasers is one of the most idiotic plotlines in all the SW films.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

None of the Star Wars movies really stand up on their own. Even ANH, perhaps the best claim to that title, is so jarringly in media res as to start with the words "Star Wars, Episode IV" and constantly references a bunch of shit that Lucas hadn't actually considered then retcons all of it later, up to and including everything about Darth Vader. There should be a name for that. "Cinematographic Vagueposting"?

They're all pretty strongly woven together, some more antagonistically than others. They only really come together as a story at all on the franchise level. Nothing is resolved in Empire Strikes Back. The rebels get fucked, Luke abandons his training pretty much immediately, Han and Leia don't fuck, Luke is subjected to a stupid unchoreographed plot twist, they all lose to the Empire and fuck off on the Millennium Falcon. As a standalone it accomplishes nothing and doesn't resolve the plot in any way.

How very...familiar. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Reelya]

You missed my point. I didn't say I wanted a movie that doesn't have connections to other movies. I want a movie that's passably ok compared to other genre films. This one isn't that. if there was some no-name sci-fi movie with the same overall plot as the current movie, then you can bet that no reviewer would be giving it 2 seconds of consideration.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I think you're the one who's missing the point. Your judgement of this movie is silly counterfactual. Movies that aren't standalone exist in context with other members of the series, and so are rightfully considered in that context.

"What if Star Wars wasn't Star Wars and nobody watched it but it was the same, would it still be good?" Who gives a shit? That isn't what happened!

[EnigmaticHat]

But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine.  I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that.  That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot. 

Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
But hey, gotta have some strong female characters. Ackbar died for this.

The new bridge crew took her side.  Which would seem to imply that all surviving high ranking officers knew.

Poe fails information compartmentalization forever.  He found out about the transports IIRC because he's because he's friends with all the pilots, who did need to know the transports were going to launch.  And to them it probably made sense to tell Poe that.  Then he preceded to tell that information to two people who had no reason to know.  If he had been like Holdo, what he would have told them is "get the tracker down in the next 60 seconds or we're fucked."  Without telling them why.

The plotline is about Poe learning from Holdo and Leia.  Its part of the movie's larger theme about failure and what you do afterwards.  The thing about the Poe + Finn thread of the story that a lot of people seem to be grappling with is that everyone's actions made sense to them.  Out of Holdo, Leia, Poe, Finn and Rose, no one is villainous or particularly foolish.  Poe's a hotheaded idiot but he's a hotheaded idiot in a way that usually works out for the rebels and Leia recognizes that.  I've personally always thought that out of the original trio Poe most resembles Leia herself when she was younger.

[Reelya]

I think you're the one who's missing the point. Your judgement of this movie is silly counterfactual. Movies that aren't standalone exist in context with other members of the series, and so are rightfully considered in that context.

"What if Star Wars wasn't Star Wars and nobody watched it but it was the same, would it still be good?" Who gives a shit? That isn't what happened!

Your judgement of this movie is silly

Hmm, it seems to be that you're saying that me having an opinion of the movie that is different from your opinion is invalid.

Who gives a shit?

Well, clearly, you do, if you're so upset that someone has a different opinion than you do. You know, it's ok to go "well that's your opinion, and that's ok". Saying that because someone did or didn't like the thing their opinion "silly and counterfactual" and "who gives a shit" when people respond to your earlier criticisms of their other points, is in fact counterfactual to having an actual discussion on how people feel about the movie. If you "don't give a shit" about what someone has to say in response, don't comment on the original point in the first place.

I basically stand by my "who gives a shit" opinion about movies. A movie in a series should stand up by itself as an "ok movie" even if you didn't see the previous ones. It doesn't have to be great, just a passable 90 minutes on it's own merits. My opinion is that TLJ doesn't manage that. Hell, TV shows can get away with more here, but even a TV show's episodes should stand up as episodes in their own right, even if you didn't see any other episodes. It's just basic storycraft.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

But yeah it was believable, and if that was the only sin of the movie it would have been fine.  I mean, Poe just got a bunch of people killed so there is that.  That being said, that particular story trope just bothers me a lot. 

Except she didin't tell it to not only Poe. She told literally noone, so noone had any fucking idea she has a plan, and when noone knows if the commander can be trusted during an desperate situation, then people start a mutiny, which is exactly what happened. I could have accepted it, because you know, it is somewhat reasonable to have happened, but it utterly aggravates me that in the end she is portrayed as being right and Poe being wrong, when it's literally the other way around.
But hey, gotta have some strong female characters. Ackbar died for this.

The new bridge crew took her side.  Which would seem to imply that all surviving high ranking officers knew.

Poe fails information compartmentalization forever.  He found out about the transports IIRC because he's because he's friends with all the pilots, who did need to know the transports were going to launch.  And to them it probably made sense to tell Poe that.  Then he preceded to tell that information to two people who had no reason to know.  If he had been like Holdo, what he would have told them is "get the tracker down in the next 60 seconds or we're fucked."  Without telling them why.

The plotline is about Poe learning from Holdo and Leia.  Its part of the movie's larger theme about failure and what you do afterwards.  The thing about the Poe + Finn thread of the story that a lot of people seem to be grappling with is that everyone's actions made sense to them.  Out of Holdo, Leia, Poe, Finn and Rose, no one is villainous or particularly foolish.  Poe's a hotheaded idiot but he's a hotheaded idiot in a way that usually works out for the rebels and Leia recognizes that.  I've personally always thought that out of the original trio Poe most resembles Leia herself when she was younger.

One of the new bridge crew covered for his plan by hiding the ship Finn and Rose were on when Holdo asked what had just left, and Poe found out about the transports not from fellow pilots but when he saw a display of the transports being fueled up.

[scriver]

Everything that does not involve Kylo Ren, Rey or Luke (and even some sections that do) is just pointless.

Rey and Kylo Ren are both crazy now, the latter having assumed control of the First Order. The galaxy is now presumably in chaos, having collapsed the New Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order leaving lesser forces to splinter or begin mercenary activities.

Ah, but none of that really matters, does it? Because random smuggler Han Solo is so vitally important that him getting frozen has larger consequences, or something. Oh, does it matter on the character level? But the movie just ended with him frozen, so it doesn't ever go anywhere, he's basically dead.

Everything that does not involve Kylo Ren, Rey

[ChairmanPoo]

The Last Jedi synopsis

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I don't know why all the complaint about stuff in the movie that "didn't have a result."  It's much more like real life that way - "we tried this, and it failed! It was pointless! It was a wrong turn! It didn't turn out the way I expected!"

It's actually kind of refreshing from the "every single small moment in the story is successful and/or has an awesome purpose and/or we succeeded despite terrible odds."  I mean, I thought it was actually nice that they failed to disable the tracking device - it was a million-to-one mission, and it actually failed!

Something I've just realized about this thread and most of the discussion on this movie though - it's lots of what people don't like - but very little of discussion what people were expecting.  I feel like most of the disappointment and dislike is due to unmet expectations.  But what expectations were there?  Stuff like that...

Stories are not real life. They are not about being realistic or emulating reality. They're about exploring very certain aspects of humanity, and frankly, I would say the more "realistic" and down to earth it is, the worse a story it is. I hate, HATE, when people say this... there's a whole pseudo-genre of work for you, pal: Literary Fiction. Eat it up, thousands upon thousands of short stories and novels and unfinished works on boring, mundane real-life, slice-of-life bullshit. Who, in their right minds, wants to hear about the trials and tribulations of the average? How lame. How presumptuous to assume that any given person wants to hear about a life they are already living as if it is something they have yet to grasp the beauty in. Boo to you sir, I say Boo.

A story is a story, and how dare you defend both failure and a lack of imagination. Realism is overrated. Of course, this movie isn't realistic at all, but if you want to say that story is much more like real life than it has been before--well let me tell you it is one of the technically worst stories I've ever seen. The first two thirds of the movie are entirely invalidated by Finn and Rose's failures, and has to be MANUALLY reignited by the Codebreaker because Johnson clearly wrote himself into a corner--which he continually does, leading to my next point. Aggressive amounts of Deus Ex Machina. There is no truly overarching problem or villain. Rey has almost no interaction with the other characters, and SERENDIPITOUSLY saves them all at the end of the day. Luke changes his mind about helping out for almost no reason. Snoke is a macguffin. The entire scenario of running down the rebels simply because the FO can is ridiculous given the character Snoke and Kylo were set up to be. My god man, it's truly awful--and that is without considering it in the frame of being a sequel to TFA. Add incredible gaps in character personalities from TFA, an inability to show characters bonding emotionally, several story lines just fucking stopping or not developing, constant plot armor, and accompanying consistently bad decision making from most characters and you have... well, one incredibly shitty script.

And speaking of expectations, we were all expecting a Star Wars movie. This was not it. Everyone here is talking about expectations like they don't matter. They fucking do. It's so frustrating. Their are high expectations for Star Wars. Secret Missions. The Force. New and Wonderous Planets. Aliens. Blasters. Big Battles. Lightsaber Duels. AND a general sense of wonder and scale. This movie KNOWS it needs these things and tries and fails at making them tangible. And you know what? You can break, SMASH every single expectation you want, but the movie has to be GOOD for you to do it, and the writing alone was movie-ruining.
 

[McTraveller]

I think I'm with EnigmaticHat on this one... I don't understand how there is such a vast gulf between opinions on this movie.  It doesn't even feel like it should be that polarizing.  But you'd think it was the worst movie of all time or something.

I seriously think people need to watch more MST3K or something to really understand what an awful movie is.  The Last Jedi may not be 'great' but it isn't 'terrible'.  Basically - I think there's a massive projection of "I didn't like it" into "this movie is bad".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I mean, personally I think, say, Captain America: Civil War (which I finally got around to seeing) is actually a worse movie than TLJ.  Guardians of the Galaxy II was pretty awful, too.  GotGII had a terrible senseless plot, it didn't even do character development except maybe on the blue guy with the whistle-arrow whose name I can't even remember, it was just an over-done special effects show.  Way worse - and that's saying something when it's a movie in a universe that has less "physics rules" than Star Wars.