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Author Topic: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]  (Read 105223 times)

Reelya

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #240 on: January 04, 2018, 10:11:55 pm »

You should watch those green-screen showreels they make (for industry clients really, you've probably never heard of the companies that make the showreels). It's amazing just how many regular "drama" type shows use digital backlots now. I'd say the vast majority of American TV shows green-screen almost everything that you wouldn't think need to be green-screened. It lets them film the backdrop on location just once, no matter how many takes are needed in the studio to get the foreground action correct (with motion tracking on the cameras to ensure they line up perfectly), which saves a lot of money considering that shooting on location is expensive and has to be completed in very limited timeframes.

Noticeable green screen failure in a feature film is really dropping the ball, considering that weekly TV shows do it fairly seamlessly all the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:18:31 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #241 on: January 04, 2018, 10:40:07 pm »

You should watch those green-screen showreels they make (for industry clients really, you've probably never heard of the companies that make the showreels). It's amazing just how many regular "drama" type shows use digital backlots now. I'd say the vast majority of American TV shows green-screen almost everything that you wouldn't think need to be green-screened. It lets them film the backdrop on location just once, no matter how many takes are needed in the studio to get the foreground action correct (with motion tracking on the cameras to ensure they line up perfectly), which saves a lot of money considering that shooting on location is expensive and has to be completed in very limited timeframes.

Noticeable green screen failure in a feature film is really dropping the ball, considering that weekly TV shows do it fairly seamlessly all the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k

Not to mention safer sometimes, like the shot while scaling a tower in that vid.

Speaking of bad cinematography, etc, was anybody else bothered by the loud WHOOM sound the star destroyers made when they hyperspaced in? Laser noises and explosions in space, fine, that's expected of Hollywood, but the sound of the star destroyers hyperspacing in seemed jarring. Would have been more ominous if they hyperspaced in silently than with what amounted to a sonic boom in space.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #242 on: January 04, 2018, 10:44:59 pm »

Re: the bay-esque complicated fight scenes.  They seem to want to take some of the prequel's ideas into the new trilogy and execute them better.  A friend pointed out (prior to the release of TLJ) that Rey and Kylo Ren are collectively prequels Anakin.  Rey being kid Anakin, and Kylo being teen Anakin.
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Antioch

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #243 on: January 05, 2018, 06:41:11 am »

Re: the bay-esque complicated fight scenes.  They seem to want to take some of the prequel's ideas into the new trilogy and execute them better.  A friend pointed out (prior to the release of TLJ) that Rey and Kylo Ren are collectively prequels Anakin.  Rey being kid Anakin, and Kylo being teen Anakin.

I am glad they do, since Anakin's character development was extremely weak in the prequals.

It went: Mary Sue kid -> cocky asshole -> irrational cocky asshole.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #244 on: January 05, 2018, 07:10:29 am »

Re: the bay-esque complicated fight scenes.  They seem to want to take some of the prequel's ideas into the new trilogy and execute them better.  A friend pointed out (prior to the release of TLJ) that Rey and Kylo Ren are collectively prequels Anakin.  Rey being kid Anakin, and Kylo being teen Anakin.

I am glad they do, since Anakin's character development was extremely weak in the prequals.

It went: Mary Sue kid -> cocky asshole -> irrational cocky asshole.
Wherras in TLJ Rey is the MS kid and  K Ren is directly a cocky irrational asshole
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #245 on: January 05, 2018, 10:06:59 am »

With the paucity of female sci-fi leads, women are willing to put up with Mary Sue female characters, however, i imagine that as more choices open up, there's going to be a backlash there. While a Rei or a Wonder Woman might be appeal if it's all you got, being constantly represented by "perfect" members of your own gender isn't something with much broad appeal for women who aren't already watching these types of films anyway. It's why male heroes more often than not have plenty of flaws. Luke was a naive farmboy, Han was a sexist jerk. While Rei, she's basically Ms. Action Hero right from the start, always succeeds at everything from the first try. It's not actually "representation" if they're not the types of characters women tend to like to watch. Regular women prefer "Bridget Jones" type characters to "Wonder Woman" type characters - e.g. rounded women who's qualities are balanced by plenty of flaws.

There's also another important thing for female viewers. One noted difference in male vs female psychology is that girls believe more in talent whereas boys believe more in effort, and this is shown in psychology and reflected in media that's created by/aimed at male and female viewers. An over focus on "natural talent" is a female trait, but it's also said to be harmful, since if you believe failure is inevitable because of "talent" you give up on trying things more quickly:

http://theconversation.com/our-obsession-with-natural-talent-is-harming-students-11549

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Holding a fixed mindset about any ability comes with many disadvantages. People may decide ahead of time that they do not have the “right stuff” and never make an effort at all. Girls who believe that they “can’t do” maths because of their gender and avoid its study are a case in point.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-science-success/201101/the-trouble-bright-girls

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bright girls believe that their abilities are innate and unchangeable, while bright boys believe that they can develop ability through effort and practice.

And another citation:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=OJNWDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT162&lpg=PT162&dq=girls+believe+in+set+talent&source=bl&ots=2F0HlnfmZE&sig=1TQRneZULAy_dpHdrQ_Zcj3UF0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUju_zj8HYAhVGU7wKHa8bBi4Q6AEIPjAG#v=onepage&q=girls%20believe%20in%20set%20talent&f=false

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Dweck's research has found that girls, more so than boys, tend to believe that the abilities one has are fixed: people are born with certain abilities or they're not. As a result, girls have shown a greater tendency to give up when they face challenges with a particular task or subject

https://www.nature.com/scitable/forums/women-in-science/growth-mindsets-benefit-girls-and-women-in-19959513

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Interestingly, in cultures that produce a large number of math and science graduates - especially women - including South and East Asian cultures, the basis of success is generally attributed less to inherent ability and more to effort.

The more girls and women believe that they can develop the skills they need to be successful in STEM fields (as opposed to being "gifted"), the more likely they are to actually be successful in STEM fields. Dr. Dweck's work demonstrates that girls benefit greatly from shifting their view of mathematics ability from "gift" to "learned skill."

This difference also turns up in male vs female oriented fiction from around the world. In shonen anime (aimed at 12 y/o boys) they have arcs "weak -> get beaten -> train -> get beaten again > train more -> WIN!!" while in girls anime such as Sailor Moon, they don't do any training. They either can or cannot beat the Big Bad, and need to get some instant magical upgrade (such as a magic ring, or instantly unlocking some inherited power) or combine with other girls for the "power of friendship" type thing. So, girls anime is also biased towards "innate" ability rather than incremental effort.

Luke, for example, takes three movies to get where he's going, starting as a naive farmboy who can barely swing a sword. He doesn't have a real light-saber battle until 1.5 movies into the entire franchise, which makes it meaningful. That's fucking character development. He basically starts with nothing but potential and works hard at turning that into skill. This is a message boys soak up: you get better through effort, and cognitive researchers have proven boys think like that much more than girls.

Rei is awful character development, and in fact she's harmful to correcting this known cognitive bias in girls where you "can do it or you can't" right from the start. It's not an improvement that the importance of Rei's parents is diminished. That's not the big issue here! The issue is that Rei is purely defined by innate talent and girls are inundated with media that already reinforces their belief that abilities are innate. Basically the creators think it's "empowering" that she is this perfect being who can do anything, anytime. However, they have this backwards because they're either not cognizant of developmental psychology, or they simply don't care and are using the "female empowerment" thing as pure marketing. What would be really empowering is an initially powerless girl shown growing in ability over several movies. This is the type of media boys already get.

While ... they sorta did the whole "everyone has the force" thing in Jedi, it was more an anti-classist thing than an anti-innate thing. You're either born with "it" or you're not. Doesn't matter who your parents are. It's not really an improvement where it matters. If non-force people could cultivate the force then that would in fact be better for girls. Show a non-force girl who through training can use the force. Don't show a magical force princess who's just naturally kickass. You can't become a magical force princess, you're born like that, which is the actual problem in girls media to start with.

(see, the problem is characters such as James Bond or Superman aren't empowerment stories, they are escapist stories. Notice that both Superman and James Bond lack "heroes journey" type story arcs, both are just magical beings, with fairly static sets of powers, who live in a magical world you can never live in, but you can visit it vicariously through their eyes. Rei and Wonder Woman are unfortunately heroes more in their vein than they are like Luke, who is a fully fleshed-out hero according to the traditional mythological formulas, which are in fact just codified accounts of the story of human life).
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 11:49:39 am by Reelya »
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Mephansteras

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #246 on: January 05, 2018, 01:04:23 pm »

I disagree with the assertion that there wasn't character development in the film. It was, to me, quite clearly a film about characters finding their place in the conflict.

Kylo of course got the most. He went from Vader-wannabe to taking control of the First Order from Snoke. It's the most striking development, because he goes from worshiping the past to tossing it aside.

Poe goes from being cocky fighter-pilot who happens to lead others to an actual leader of the resistance. It shows him focusing most on finding the most effective combat solution (regardless of losses), to him learning that a real leader focuses on the war and not a single battle. And that he has to worry about the lives of those under him.

Finn goes from someone who is really just trying to get himself and his friends somewhere safe to accepting that he really is part of the resistance. And that the resistance is more than just about destroying the First Order.

Rose goes from the quiet back-scene maintenance worker to a real agent of the resistance who goes out and does things, even brave things.

Rye gets the least, but it does show her going from 'girl who learns she's a force-user' to full 'I am a Jedi and I will fight against the Dark Side'. She didn't know her place, and through the course of the movie she learns it. She is a Jedi. And she's less obsessed with her own past and more concerned with her future for once.

The problem isn't that there wasn't character development, it's that most of it is just exactly what we expected. Rey's development is actually fairly significant, but it's exactly what we all expected (she's a Jedi, obviously). All the protagonists are just doing what we want them to do, so them doing it isn't all that noteworthy.

Kylo Ren pulled a pretty strong change from what we expected. Vader was, after all, simply the emperor's right-hand man. Kylo goes way beyond that, and kills Snoke not for redemption but simply as the next step in his own path. It wasn't what everyone assumed he'd do in the movie so it stands out the most.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #247 on: January 05, 2018, 02:15:15 pm »

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #248 on: January 05, 2018, 02:38:35 pm »

Since the "Rey is a Mary Sue" meme persists on even in this thread, I present to you:

The Grand List of Rey's Failures and Personal Flaws

- Spent most of her life living in utter poverty, only managing to not starve.

- Extreme naivete towards the Jedi and the Republic.

- Delusional belief that her family is coming back for her.

- Almost immediately captured by Han and Chewbacca after stealing the Millennium Falcon.

- Does not convince Finn to continue the fight.

- So vulnerable to the call of the Dark Side even the residual amounts on Anakin's lightsaber enrapture her.

- Captured by Kylo Ren.

- Doesn't really contribute at all to the attack on the Starkiller, barely defeats Kylo Ren in a 2-on-1 fight.

- Delusional belief Luke can turn the war around somehow and wanted to be found.

- Only convinces Luke to help her out of persistent annoyance and him wanting her to see how screwed she is.

- Unhesitatingly draws deep power from the Dark Side such that Luke, who nearly turned once himself, flips out at how recklessly idiotic she is.

- Doesn't question her mental link to the man who tried to kill her not too long ago and is actively trying to kill all her friends, quickly becomes sympathetic to him.

- Despite chastisement by recently-idolized Luke Skywalker, decides to just delve straight into the heart of darkness to fulfill her selfish desires.

- Selfish desires are so delusional in nature that even the heart of darkness is like "idk, man".

- Goes kind of crazy and narrowly avoids murdering, again, recently-idolized Luke Skywalker for lying to her in the sense he didn't tell her every detail about how Kylo went bad.

- Delusional belief Kylo "Murder the Past" Ren has good in him and can be saved, aping the Luke-Anakin legend she believes in.

- Stupidly delivers herself into Kylo's clutches to be given to Snoke, again aping the old legend.

- Success at getting Kylo to rebel tempered by fact he did it for completely different reasons than she thought.

- Doesn't accept obvious truth about her parentage until loverboy Kylo Ren reads her mind and spells it out for her.

- Fails to redeem Kylo "Han-Kebab" Ren, doesn't join him in awesome galaxy murder quest either.

- Accidentally destroys Anakin's lightsaber that they're both obsessed with.

- Doesn't kill Kylo "Space Neo-Nazi Kickflip Into Space Antichrist" Ren even though she regains consciousness long before he does.

- Can't hinder First Order assault on Crait.

- Steals founding Jedi texts, proving she didn't learn anything from recently-idolized Luke Skywalker and is probably still streaking headlong into zealotry and the Dark Side.



Now with all of that suckage and failure, there's no need to continue on such a silly idea, which was taken grognar complaints about everything non-masturbatory in new Star Wars media anyway.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 02:46:20 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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smjjames

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #249 on: January 05, 2018, 03:12:00 pm »

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- Accidentally destroys Anakin's lightsaber that they're both obsessed with.

To be honest, it was either that or let Kylo have it. Although, since Kylo activated it through the force not five minutes earlier, she could have let go before the breaking point and at the same tijme turned the lightsabre on, effectively throwing the lightsabre at Kylo

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- Can't hinder First Order assault on Crait.

What exactly could the Millenium Falcon have done?

She did go to the dark mirror thing (whatever it was) and pulled back when it didn't give her the answers she was looking for.

I guess the point being made is that there is supposed to be a balance between the light and dark and you have to straddle between the two.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #250 on: January 05, 2018, 03:38:10 pm »

there is supposed to be a balance between the light and dark and you have to straddle between the two.

Get your mind out of the gutter! Not everything is about sex
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smjjames

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #251 on: January 05, 2018, 03:43:49 pm »

there is supposed to be a balance between the light and dark and you have to straddle between the two.

Get your mind out of the gutter! Not everything is about sex

That was completely unintentional, I swear. Not sure how you'd interpret it as sex, but yeah, completely unintentional.

lol
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McTraveller

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #252 on: January 05, 2018, 04:28:15 pm »


- Selfish desires are so delusional in nature that even the heart of darkness is like "idk, man".


This made me laugh hard for some reason.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #253 on: January 05, 2018, 05:02:30 pm »

doesn't join him in awesome galaxy murder quest either.
Biggest problem with the movie right here.
I want my order of true neutral force users. ;_;
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NRDL

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #254 on: January 05, 2018, 06:06:09 pm »

Eh, what would a grey jedi actually DO though? They're just gonna be good-aligned Jedi willing to commit fricking genocide or something every now and again, or a dark side user who's...nice? Sometimes?

The whole Bendu thing from Star Wars Rebels I feel is just a way to show how boring and isolationist an actual true neutral force user would be.
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