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Author Topic: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]  (Read 105254 times)

Antioch

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #225 on: January 03, 2018, 05:38:59 pm »

I liked it.
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Kot

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #226 on: January 03, 2018, 05:41:55 pm »

I disliked it.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #227 on: January 03, 2018, 05:53:59 pm »

I loved it.
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hops

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #228 on: January 03, 2018, 07:20:19 pm »

I like trains.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #229 on: January 03, 2018, 07:44:07 pm »

I can count to potato
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Putnam

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #230 on: January 04, 2018, 03:31:31 am »

The plot structure is quite bad when examined, it invalidates most of what actually occurs in the first sixty minutes. There's really no satisfactory pay-off. In the end, nothing is accomplished, and no one is really changed. NEED I go into more depth than that? I can. Screenwriting is what I do, and this script is... yikes.

The character development is nil or backwards. Except for Kylo--who's rocking.

These two statements are contradictory.

wobbly

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #231 on: January 04, 2018, 03:54:30 am »

I quite enjoyed it even though I agree with most of the criticisms. (For instance most of the characters are so forgettable that I literally keep forgetting their names)

I'm not surprised so many people are of opposite opinions on the movie. I went in with no particular expectations & taken as just a sci-fi action movie it's pretty watchable as long as you're prepared to ignore the flaws. Where as if you start looking for flaws there's plenty of them: the plots paper thin, the comedy scenes try to hard, the bombers look designed to be as slow & vulnerable as possible etc.

As far as people saying it's ruined the whole franchise I'd say there are already more bad or average star wars movies then great ones. Pretty sure it'll survive this one.
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #232 on: January 04, 2018, 08:19:17 am »

The plot structure is quite bad when examined, it invalidates most of what actually occurs in the first sixty minutes. There's really no satisfactory pay-off. In the end, nothing is accomplished, and no one is really changed. NEED I go into more depth than that? I can. Screenwriting is what I do, and this script is... yikes.

The character development is nil or backwards. Except for Kylo--who's rocking.

These two statements are contradictory.

A single rocking villain doesn't necessarily mean good character development.

One thing I have strong suspicion of is that Rian Johnson was given a very specific brief: "this is how it starts, this is how it ends, feel free to fill in the middle however you want (btw Snoke wasn't popular so he dies, and Luke dies)".

That's why all the new characters are conveniently killed off (EDIT or otherwise leave the plot), and the core team conveniently, and very improbably, all come back together to pile into the Millienium Falcon and fly into the sunset. (sitcom "team back together" style). Rian Johnson didn't have the authority to craft any new plots that are going to continue on in Episode 9, so he created a bunch of things that just happen in between, with the "off into the sunset" ending pre-ordained.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:24:54 pm by Reelya »
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #233 on: January 04, 2018, 03:50:10 pm »

As Reelya said it's really not contradictory to condemn it is a whole and then point out the one thing I liked.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #234 on: January 04, 2018, 03:56:20 pm »

I thought the blocking on the fight scenes was well done.  When the armies/fleets are standing off, the imperials are positioned left of the center of the screen, rebels right of center.  Imperials advancing move and face right.  Rebels advancing move left, rebels retreating move right.  You can see this even in scenes that are tangential to the actual armies; for example, when Leia and Kylo are sensing each other with the force, Leia is facing left and Kylo is facing right.  When Poe is taking out the Dreadnought's defensive canons, he's moving left; even in the head on cockpit scenes and the BB8 repair scenes, Poe and BB8 are still slightly right of the camera and facing slightly left.  Likewise when Kylo speeds through the cruiser's hanger bays he moves left to right across the screen.  All the same rules apply during the land battle with the ski speeders.  Even near the end of the movie, Finn drags Rose back into the hangar moving right, and the Rebels move through the mines left to right.  This isn't to prove any thematic point of course, its to maintain comprehensibility.  Most modern action movies have awful blocking and it makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on.  The worst examples would be some of the early MCU movies, Michael Bay's Transformers and anything that came out at around the same time (MCU has had to step up their game recently because of all the characters).

When main characters are in a personal fight on the other hand, you can see that they're placed center while the camera orbits around them to show the many enemies surrounding them.  It allows them to keep up that Michael Bay/prequels sense of dynamic camera movement and different foreground/background movement speeds to create a sense of motion.  While at the same time, main character becomes an anchor to orient the rest of the fight around.  Thus you get that over-edited sense of modern cgi action without getting that shakey-cam incomprehensibility that usually comes with that.  You can most easily see this in the throne battle and the Finn + Rose blaster fight in the flagship hanger bay.  But it also applies to other fight scenes.  In the Luke + Kylo flashback for example, the camera begins facing Kylo, then rotates to show Kylo's lightsaber, then flips to show the house collapsing and in the final flashback the Luke gets out of the rubble, the camera moves with him as he walks then turns to reveal the burning temple.  Throughout the whole thing Luke is a fixed point, always center of the camera; even when Kylo is the point of focus, the back of Luke's head is visible in the foreground.

Moving away from comprehensibility and into theme, you can also see very effective use of high and low angles.  During the ski speeder fight scene when we see things from the rebel's POV the camera is basically "craning its neck" to look up in the sky at the AT-ATs and the tie fighters.  When Finn is charging the battering ram cannon, the cannon is shown with a slightly low angle while Finn is shown with a neutral/slightly high angle.  This to aid with the visual implication that if Finn jumps down the cannon's throat when its already powered up, he might just be vaporized uselessly.  Meanwhile, when the imperials look down at the rebels, we see from inside the AT AT cockpits that the little red plumes look practically like ants, and the AT AT operators are like giants looking down at them.  The clearly falling apart and obsolete skid bikes add to this effect.  When Luke emerges, he's portrayed in a low angle walking out of the base.  When the AT ATs start firing suddenly we're looking at them from a neutral angle, and instead of looking at the console most of the interior shots of Kylo's command vehicle are looking inwards at him and Raeh, with again neutral angles.  When Kylo does his final little "I cut you in half" anime dash, conventionally the camera would swipe along the movement of the cut to emphasize its power.  But here we see the camera pan from Kylo's head down towards the line his feet cut in the salt.  This serves as a final little fake out (as the skid lines resemble nothing if not streaks of blood, implying Luke is going to collapse Darth Maul style).  But it also serves as a quiet visual indicator of Kylo's defeat, as the neutral to high camera angle shift strips his power away from him.  The last shot we see of him is a high angle of him dropping Han's fuzzy dice while the camera draws back, making him look ever smaller.


In the open scenes we see the rebel base during their hurried retreat.  This scene takes up very little time and was pretty optional to the overall plot, but it allowed one shot in particular, which is the base commander looking up from the planet at the star destroyers above.  Again, low angle.  We later the reverse of that shot where we look "over the shoulder" of the dreadnought's canon as its gazing down at the tiny rebel base from orbit.  When Kylo makes his attack run on Leia we see the cruiser from a very high angle and we cut back to the three advancing Tie Fighters (if you correct me to Tie Interceptor I will smack you) from a low angle.  Then when Kylo gives up (and I believe murders both of his wingmen in revenge for his mother, although that happened too quick for me to be sure), we switch back to neutral angles.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #235 on: January 04, 2018, 07:47:55 pm »

Jee, every time EnigmaticHat posts, my love for this movie grows a little.
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McTraveller

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #236 on: January 04, 2018, 08:02:35 pm »

Yeah, argue what you will about the plot/characters, The Last Jedi has some awesome cinematography (except for Snoke...just stop trying to do that kind of CGI please! And the couple green-screen snafus.)
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smjjames

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #237 on: January 04, 2018, 08:08:49 pm »

Yeah, argue what you will about the plot/characters, The Last Jedi has some awesome cinematography (except for Snoke...just stop trying to do that kind of CGI please! And the couple green-screen snafus.)

What green-screen snafus?
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McTraveller

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #238 on: January 04, 2018, 08:44:42 pm »

I mentioned them earlier - there were a couple places where there is a "disconnect" between the foreground and background.  Like when you have a bad sitcom shot of people inside a car and the stuff outside the car is disconnected.  Not quite that extreme, but it was there.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #239 on: January 04, 2018, 10:11:14 pm »

The blocking is good. No argument there. The choreography was pretty solid too, though the whappity sticks are stupid and the whole plasma fight was just lackluster. I thought the Throne Room fight was pretty good--a little too clean imo, but that's nitpicking.

However, that Michael Bay style is trash. Like, it's just far too much. It really hits you over the head when it just shouldn't--one of those things that makes Star Wars what it is and part of why the prequels are ill regarded (not really the same, but the ADHD in the filmmaking and focus on just having the biggest explosions.) Perfect examples of scenes which are way over the top: Finn v Phasma in the hanger, Leia getting sucked out into space, AT-ATs blasting Luke. There's just no reason to do it this way.

Quick segue, because when I say the cinematography is bad, I'm not talking about the framing or the camera movement or even the blocking. It's fine. I'm taking specifically about the mis en scene and the Bay-esque way in which it is overcomplicated. Coupled with with bad visual design--I.E. interior of casino, casino patron outfits, new AT-ATs (too much like big doggos, not scary tanks--they fucking recoil, what? Lame.), the dreadnought--it is a visual departure from the older films for a style that really doesn't lend any weight to personal interaction or symbolism. I bring this up because as I said, shot for shot, TLJ is obviously well done--though no more so than any Marvel movie IMO--and I'm not really trying to nitpick the small details.

I don't really want to go into why the cinematography and editing fail in these sequences, because frankly I'm tired af and have a flight in the AM, but honestly, my gripes with it pale in comparison to what I think of the story. Which, honestly, is where every movie begins and ends, and no amount of flashy shots will fix giant (see: fucking gaping) problems with the structure and character writing.
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