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[Jopax]

How is "just a sci-fi heist movie" any different than "just a generic action movie" ?

Both films lean heavily on the franchise to be interesting and workable in large part, which is kind of the whole point of having a franchise, that it does a lot of heavy lifting and worldbuilding for you once you have it in place. The thing with Rogue One is that it's a pretty fun and overall decent action movie without much fucking about with messages and plot twists and forced social issues. And I'm not saying that a SW movie can't have all that fucking about, but so far, they've had a rather shit track record when it came to it.

[Dorsidwarf]

What I mean with "fake subversive" is that I didn't really find it to be subversive at all. There's this atmosphere about how it breaks with the mold, and tradition, and all that... when it's actually pretty tame and you can see most things coming from a mile away.

I agree here.

Consider another term "inclusive". Saying that anything that attempts to be subversive must be subversive because it "subverts" is not far off saying that the one token female or black character in the team is "inclusive", because it "includes".

Things can "include" in ways that are cynical with paper-thin rationales that backfire and fail to be "inclusive". And I'm thinking similarly shoddy subversion could work the same way.

Im pretty sure TLJ just failed at its genuine attempt to subvert expectations because it was too telegraphed, everyone is overthinking it in my opinions

[Dunamisdeos]

I started out writing this being my usual chill self and ended less so. So I guess this is a rant now. I can have one sometimes, right? TL;DR, Last Jedi is a hypocritical movie that praises itself for the trait of being hypocritical.

I think I can sum up my own dislikes with TLJ with it's overall message that the end results don't matter so long as you serve your own feeling of self-righteousness. You can sacrifice or trample down anything whatsoever, including others' lifelong causes, their sincere beliefs, their actual life, anything so long as it makes you feel right. If you see someone who is following this way of thinking, it is your responsibility to make sacrifices so that they succeed, because they are heroes.

Poe was literally responsible for scores, maybe hundreds of utterly needless deaths during that movie, but he was doing things his way (he's so bold and fearless, you guys) and that means there shouldn't be consequences. His sole reaction to realizing he's killed piles of his friends is a resounding oops face. Rose knowingly and purposefully sacrifices the entirety of the remaining rebellion and therefore the actual freedom of the entire galaxy for the foreseeable future for a chance to snog with Finn. Even more people die because Rose takes extra time to save space horses, but nobody mentions that because it was a chance to feel righteous again, and it's important to take every possible opportunity for that. All of this is treated not as flaws or mistakes, but as heroic actions that are unrelated to the horrific consequences that follow.

Then Luke takes the time to talk about how ALL OF THIS EXACT BEHAVIOR IS TERRIBLE AND WRONG WHEN THE JEDI PUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR PHILOSOPHIES OVER OTHERS' WELL-BEING, AND THE JEDI ARE SO ARROGANT FOR THIS AND SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO EXIST AGAIN, but then I guess the Jedi weren't written by a hip cool director guy with such subversive vision, so they suck. Then Yoda shows up and says yeah Luke, you had it right, the Jedi were flawed and wrong for all of those reasons, and THEN LUKE SACRIFICES HIS LIFE FOR THESE PEOPLE.

I'm also annoyed that they wasted Gwendolyn Christie in two movies and then she does nothing in both and dies, of all people. Why was she even there. You could have put me in that suit and had the same impact with that character.

Spoiler: Response to Metal's Jedi musings (click to show/hide)

I agree with all of that regarding the Sith and Jedi. Part of why I enjoyed all the extended universe things was the way that when you take it all in the Jedi and Sith are simply using different forms of self-serving dogma to meet their own goals, and their own arrogance is always the reason why they never achieve it.

Both are so blindly convinced of their own rightness and superiority that they simply expect the universe will agree with them, as it were. Obviously the Jedi are in the right, becuase the Sith are evil, and the force will simply retroactively justify any measure the Jedi take to destroy them. Obviously the Sith are simply above such things by right of power, and the Force must bend to their needs to destroy the self-righteous moral strangulation of the Jedi. Caught in the middle is galactic civilization/The Republic, who always end up suffering the consequences of the selfish wars and conflicts of the Jedi/Sith.

One of the only things I really, really enjoyed in TLJ was Luke's realization of this and his reactions thereof. Destroying priceless records of galactic history was annoying to me, but other than that I found it perfect.

(Old Republic MMO does this especially well, if you guys haven't played the Sith Warrior storyline in that then you are missing out.)

[USEC_OFFICER]

Destroying priceless records of galactic history was annoying to me.

If I remember correctly, a quick shot in the Falcon shows that Rei stole those books from the library before leaving. It was after rescuing the remaining rebels, where Poe pulled open a drawer or something and saw them in there. So they were definitely saved but given how the new trilogy is going I wouldn't be surprised if the next movie ignored their presence entirely or tried to retcon things.

[Dunamisdeos]

Oh! I missed that entirely. Thank you.

I did enjoy Yoda's remark about how they were not exactly riveting reading.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Oh! I missed that entirely. Thank you.

I did enjoy Yoda's remark about how they were not exactly riveting reading.

Yoda was about the only part TLJ got right.

[Enemy post]

I'm pretty sure Yoda knew Rey had already taken the books, too. After destroying the tree, he tells Luke: "Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess."

After all, "from a certain point of view" has been previously established as a Jedi favorite.

[Egan_BW]

Damn lawful neutrals.

[Kagus]

I did enjoy Yoda's remark about how they were not exactly riveting reading.

"Bitch, I'm 900 years old and I ain't got time to read that shit"

[scriver]

BObviously the Jedi are in the right, becuase the Sith are evil, and the force will simply retroactively justify any measure the Jedi take to destroy them.

Only the Sith deals in absolutes!

I'm pretty sure Yoda knew Rey had already taken the books, too. After destroying the tree, he tells Luke: "Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess."

This. I was going to point it out myself, because it was just brought to my attention the other day when I watched the CinemaSins take on the movie and the line came up. Very clever, I think.

[Dunamisdeos]

Only the Sith deals in absolutes!

If you are a super star wars nerd and read the EU and history of the galaxy and whatnot extensively, this line was actually genius.

Unintentional genius to be sure.

Also I highly recommend the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, it turns all the messy parts of the movie into a coherent, involved story.

[Rolan7]

I'm working through the first pages from months ago.  So much I'd love to respond to, and maybe will eventually.  Or not.

Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity. Jedi/Sith are powerful, but they aren't invincible

Meanwhile my group has a running gag that falling off a cliff, *especially* in Star Wars, is a surefire way to survive an otherwise lethal situation.
Sherlock Holmes, Boba Fett, Luke, Lupin the Third, Darth Maul...  Heck, maybe Snope WAS Mace Windu (for all the new movies tell us!)

I don't have a strong opinion on the new movies, really.  I enjoyed them, but they sure do have... glaring potential issues.  It's nice seeing people arguing these points, sometimes quite vehemently, yet with the Bay12 enforced respect.  Hate the idea, not the thinker.
The discussion so quickly goes ad hominem, elsewhere...

The problem is he is powerful force entity and it's hard to think that nobody fucking heard of him before, really.

Have you heard of the Father, Son, Daughter, Bendu, various other powerful force entities which rarely come up and nobody's heard of? This is also a star wars staple in canon.

I have literally never heard of any of those... people?  Despite my brother being EU-obsessed.  While I enjoyed much of the EU, secondhand, the movies should be judged on their own merits.  Especially now that the EU is literally mere fanon, despite their attempts to couch that lazy decision.  Even if they hadn't done that, the movies should at least basically work on their own.

Which is why I insist that Boba Fett is a poorly executed character.  His appearance on Bespin makes no sense unless you figure out that he placed a tracker on the Millenium Falcon.  We're supposed to figure that out from a scene of him watching the Falcon escape the Star Destroyer.  That scene supposedly means that that Han's clever "pretend to be trash" plan, a nice case of his smuggler skills paying off, was actually all according to the keikaku of this faceless asshole we saw in a lineup once.

But his action figure was popular, so the early EU books made him an actual character, and then the prequels literally multiplied him by a fricken million and gadfkja
Sorry, my brother would never shut up about this guy.  Who got Darth Maul'd straight out of his originally incidental death.

PTW, eventually.

[scriver]

I'm working through the first pages from months ago.  So much I'd love to respond to, and maybe will eventually.  Or not.

Well, to be fair falling down a large hole is basically a death sentence thanks to gravity. Jedi/Sith are powerful, but they aren't invincible

Meanwhile my group has a running gag that falling off a cliff, *especially* in Star Wars, is a surefire way to survive an otherwise lethal situation.
Sherlock Holmes, Boba Fett, Luke, Lupin the Third, Darth Maul...

...Luke's right hand...

[EnigmaticHat]

So I didn't see anyone bringing it up in this thread so I think its worth discussing.  Solo had some production drama and was essentially shot twice.  Spoilers ahead.

Basically the studio really liked the script but the people they got to direct was two directors who directed one of the lego movies.  These guys proceeded to shoot very inefficiently, taking a lot of time and also making actors improv lines.  They wasted a lot of money by coming late to shoots and then taking longer than expected to shoot.  Additionally since Lucasarts/Disney was making the movie on the strength of the script they really did not like changes to it, or the tone the two new directors were going for.  They kept making it funny, going for a Guardians of the Galaxy tone (which I love in those movies, but more on that in a sec).

When they were 70% done (directors get union protections at 90%, including being credited) the two directors were fired and a veteran director brought on.  The new guy said that a lot of the footage from the old guys was usable, but only about 30% of the movie ended up being that footage.  The rest was reshot, in a style that was pretty much the exact opposite.  Stuck to the script, finished early, used the smallest crew (and portion of the set) possible.  If you hated all the closeup shots in this film, well.  That's why.  The reshoots are also why Solo is a box office flop.  Basically it cost 250k and made 330k.  The common industry estimate for when a movie is considered successful is bare minimum 2x the budget due to marketing costs, the (tiny) cut taken by theatres, and the fact that a movie is a risky investment.  The common estimate I've heard for the original budget is 125k-150k.  So without the drama it would have been a solid, but not impressive, success.

Anyway, I've liked the humor the MCU has been injecting into action movies but its a terrible match for this movie.  The movie features elements from real crime/old gangster films and it also shows how Solo became the cynic we all know and love.  I think the movie was already inherently funny in a subtle and appropriate way due to how it relates to the OT.  From young Solo being a wide eyed idealist, to his completely unearned cockiness, to the in jokes ("I hate you"; "I know") I think the movie was light enough to not be depressing.  There was no need to directly make jokes.

I have some guesses as to which scenes were kept from the original shoot; I think the trademark isn't just jokes but scenes that went too easily.  For example when Han bet an expensive ship he didn't have to Lando and lost; that debt was never brought back and it bothered me the whole time.  I think that was improv, I mean why wouldn't Lando attempt a "so now we're even" at the end?  Let's see, "you're holding a rock and making clicking noises with your mouth" not only was out of tone but also nonsense; he was under time pressure and he could have just thrown the rock.  The war scene was also just way too easy and lacked internal logic.  The storm trooper impersonators were too obvious, we never saw who the enemy was, and things just went... too quickly and easily is the only way I can put it.  Also, "we're on their planet so technically we're the hostiles," there's no way in hell that line was in the original script and I'm willing to bet that poor actor was forced to improv against his will.  Cringey as fuck.  I think anything involving L-3 was improv.  I can see why they kept those scenes; they weren't *good* but they were something resembling decent and hammy as fuck.  L-3 was basically a D&D player enthusiastic about RP but bad at min-maxing and I'm OK with that.  It makes sense those would be the most decent jokes too, considering the original directors were used to working with voice actors and that was the only voice acted character AFAIK.  Still if L-3 is representative of what all the characters were like in first round of shooting then thank god they did reshoots.

Oh and Han Solo shot first, fuck yeah and I loved what they did there.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I really don't know how I feel about Solo. On one hand, it does Star Wars right-er than most in terms of atmosphere and themes, but... the villain, the Kessel Run, and just an incredibly predictable story really ruined it. I also resent bringing in Ron Howard to re-direct the movie--he just... didn't do it right? He didn't do it badly, Han Solo was just the wrong character for a biopic by Ole Ronnie.

I think where it really lost me was when it kind of went from "big city crime" to "generic western". Which muddies further for me because they actually did the "Star Wars' are just space westerns with more drama" bit REALLY well. Idk, it had a lot of good ideas, but just executed poorly. To reiterate what I've told other people, this may be the only time when I actually wish Solo was like 3 separate movies.

Big City Crime Planet -> Black Ops Smugglers & The Kessel Run -> Outlaw Space Western

It just isn't suave enough to juggle all three things at once. It did most of it right though--oh how I wish Disney would just immediately remake this movie, but three parts. Alden Ehrenreich actually did a pretty good job and I wouldn't mind seeing him again as Han.

In terms of actual low points of the film... they really just messed up the Kessel Run. It was so... unoriginal, especially when compared to the original idea of what the Kessel Run and The Maw is. They also needed bigger, badder, and meanerr gangs. The plot was... stock? Not terrible, but poorly paced and a little too simple. Probably a symptom of all the stuff I just talked about, including how Solo really should be separate movies.