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[Urist McScoopbeard]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44379473
So this happened. *sigh* Honestly, it's pretty terrible, and the second(?) time after Daisy Ridley's harassment. Unfortunately, in addition to being well, abusive, the abuse has apparently been both sexist and racist. Amongst people I normally talk with, this has pretty much precluded any criticism of Rose and TLJ in general. But now that this has happened, I think it's time more than ever to unpack Rose.

Personally, I've always just thought she was Rian Johnson's self-insert fan fiction. Small impact on 99% of the story. Blatant hero worship of Finn. Really all-over-the-place personality, going from about to tase Finn for deserting to freeing a bunch of space horses mid-mission because that's the "real victory"^tm. And finally, she gets to save Finn's life by... fucking up his whole mission in a really pointless and overdramatic way?

Am I wrong? These are quantifiable problems with Rose, the character, even outside of the general malaise that is TLJ. What's worse is that, now that Marvel and Star Wars have a TON of films, it's pretty obvious that Disney just inserts a throwaway minority and/or LGBT character in each movie to appeal to the masses. Which would be fine if those characters were at least nominally important to the movie. But they're just that, single shot throwaway characters that have no character development and don't actually have any non-reactionary involvement in the plot.

IDK. What do you guys think?

[Dunamisdeos]

I liked her character as the peppy optimistic rebel type, because Star Wars benefits from one of those.

I disliked almost every single scene they wrote her into. Not because of her performance, but because of... all the reasons you listed, actually.

And finally, she gets to save Finn's life by... fucking up his whole mission in a really pointless and overdramatic way?

This was the only time in my life I almost impulsively yelled at a movie screen in a theater filled with people.

[Reelya]

That's exactly right. Actress did nothing wrong, worked well with the material they gave her. Her race and gender are nothing to do with it, they just didn't give her a whole lot to work with.

It's really sucky that idiots use social media in that way to target the people just trying to do their job and get a start in the industry. If they have to mouth off, go bombard the executives over at Disney, and the ones Disney imposed on Lucasfilm, and the director of the movie. Don't attack a small cog in the machine.

Personally, I think they introduced her too late into the movie, then she was heavily associated with the awful atrocity which was Canto Bight. So it felt like she was just being shoehorned in for no real reason. Compare to Lando, another late-introduced minority character in Empire. Him appearing when he did made sense, since Han was going to the place he was. Rose just sort of gets thrust into the story from nowhere, with what is effectively nothing but a massive coincidence.

Another part of the problem is that she just gets glomped on Finn, and Finn has the weakest arc of any of the three main characters in the movie, then Rose just gets shoved in for no real reason so he can have a sidekick. It's really pushing the limits of disbelief the way they somehow survive being on the ship that gets hyperspace-rammed by Purple Hair lady and manage to get back to the Rebel ship.

Her being Finn's last-minute secret friend who just happens to turn up when he's about to go off on a secret mission is way too ridiculous and convenient. She would have been better off if she'd been introduced as a ship technician early in the movie who knew Poe, and perhaps could have been introduced working on Poe's fighter. Since we knew fuck-all about Poe, him knowing some more people and having introduced Finn to Rose would have made more sense for how Rose and Finn met.

[Egan_BW]

Much as I appreciate the... subversive and arguably brave/foolish things that TLJ did, I kinda wish that didney just went for more of the side story movies, cause Rogue One is pretty much my high-point for starwars in general. Not having played KotOR, which would presumably blow my socks off or something similarly improbable.

...Lots of old revered RPG computer games I've never played. Oh well~

[MetalSlimeHunt]

KOTOR I is about as subversive as TLJ. KOTOR II, though...for all its many faults, it took an amazing tack to Star Wars. I can't imagine looking at the Star Wars universe without the perspective of KOTOR II. And I didn't even finish the game because of a showstopper bug!

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Ya, it's pretty incredible that a 70% finished game is better than a considerable number of films.

@Ispil, y'know... that might be a real good baseline from which most of TLJ's problem flow.

[ChairmanPoo]

I didn't find it subversive.  TLJ, I mean.  Faux subversive, maybe.

Also, some of the explanations are really jarring. Eg: I was told at one point (when I remarked that neither Kylo Ren nor the other guy are credible villains) that I was not "getting it" because they're supposed to be "like children! They are maturing and learning!" (... to be... galactic warlords  ). I don't get how this fix things. Part of the reason they lack credibility is precisely that they behave like spoiled rebellious teens. Telling me it was delliberate makes it worse, if anything.

And mind you, I find the lack of a credible villain far more jarring that Rey's marysueness (which isn't all that evident because none of the characters are particularily well written, IMO)

The overall impression is that the old stars show up almost as "stretch goal easter eggs" and disappear just as quickly... and that the new characters overall are not particularily well written. There is some attempt to address issues, but at times it sacrifices story for the sake of preaching, and other times you don't actually get even what they're trying to get at (arms dealer scene anyone?)

[Egan_BW]

It's a fictional story. Very deliberately pretending to be subversive is... the very same thing as being subversive. You can't exactly say that a thing is just pretending to subvert your expectations when it intentionally subverting your expectations is the main criticism you have of it.
You can say it's not well done, you can say it's done in a way that makes no sense, you can even say that it's done with the purpose of cynical mass-appeal, but it's not "fake" subversive.

[ChairmanPoo]

What I mean with "fake subversive" is that I didn't really find it to be subversive at all. There's this atmosphere about how it breaks with the mold, and tradition, and all that... when it's actually pretty tame and you can see most things coming from a mile away.


It's like with ASOIF and GRRM's supposed willingness to kill main characters, when in actuality he's fairly tame: he kills off one or two main ones early, and spends the rest of the novels living off that early reputation. I think fake deaths and resurrections outnumber real main character deaths by now.

[hector13]

Kylo Ren's character is interesting, though it depends on the end point in the next movie. In TLJ, it's clear that he's lost, doesn't quite have a goal to meet, but is actively searching for one. At the end, he appears to figure out what it is he wants to do, so there was at least some development there, even if it's just a slightly skewed Rule of Two.

Finn and Rose are both entirely pointless characters. I share Dunamisdeos' reaction to Rose saving Finn, because it took away the logical end to Finn's story because he doesn't actually do anything in TLJ, just kinda... mills about. First going after Rey because he can't do anything on his own, then with Rose and Poe trying to figure out how to save the fleet. Equally so, the whole Phasma side thing fell completely flat because there was no real build-up between she and Finn for the whole "brainwashed soldier overcoming former master" nonsense, nor was it a particularly interesting fight scene.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Kylo Ren has taken two of the three steps needed for him to be an amazing villain. The first was his whole "tempted by the light" thing that leads to him intentionally indulging his worst self by killing Han. The second was transcending the inherent failures of the Sith by seeking to tear down galactic government instead of ruling it. The third, which will probably not happen, will be the First Order nearing victory and then getting blown up by Kylo Ren to drown the galaxy in a new age of chaos. The only reason I hold out hope for this was that I thought the second step would never actually happen after TFA but it did.

The reason the Sith are such bitches is that their ideology is as self-defeating as that of the Republic-era Jedi. The Rule of Two was meant to bring the Sith stability, but in the end it just limited their ability to grow and inevitably dead-ended in the Rule of One, which is why there are no more Sith except for p-zombie holocrons buried around the galaxy. Ultimately, the problem is that it doesn't really make any sense to use the Force to fulfill your desires. The dark side corrupts you so thoroughly you can't fulfill whatever it is you wanted in the first place, and you sit around waiting to be overthrown, just like the fucking Jedi. Going dark for something is always pointless. What Kylo Ren succeeds at in spite of everything else (and there is a lot of else about Space Nazi Boyfriend) is choosing the dark for the dark's own sake. He doesn't want to rule an empire. He doesn't want to save some girl. He's just doing what comes, and in that anti-enlightenment cannot be nullified like Sith are. The heart of darkness says kill, he kills. He meets Rey, she seems interesting, fuck it, he'll kill Snoke and roll with her. Except she doesn't want to, so fuck her too, he'll kill them all. He spends exactly zero time caring that the First Order just lost a spaceship the size of Rhode Island, kill the fucking rebels already Hux.

Kylo Ren is the inverse character of Luke. Where Luke found the way to volition within the stagnating influence of the light side that consumed the Jedi, he found the way to employ the dark by wanting for nothing and so being immune to the obsessions the dark side provokes. It's great.

And all Disney has to do is not fuck it up, which they will.


As for Rose keeping Finn from sweet death, I think what they were trying to go for was "lives aren't currency to be traded in war, that's how you become as bad as the Empire/Order, only the idealistic virtues of the rebellion set us apart" and just did a bunch of ketamine while writing that part of the story.

[Egan_BW]

He meets Rey, she seems interesting, fuck it,

Dark side's all 'bout passion, so yes that might have had something to do with it.

[hector13]

That last part would be okay, if they didn’t abandon their “we need our ideals” nonsense when all their rebel buddies ghosted them.

Perhaps that’s the point though, though I’m a bit too distracted to analyze this properly. Basically my thought is the whole subversion thing they’re doing is to set itself apart from the old movies, it just kinda hasn’t worked yet because there isn’t the third movie to go “aha, see! Told you we’re different!” to show that.

Or they just took it too far and forgot they had a movie to end so ended the middle movie the same way Empire ended with a cliffhanger.

Or subverted so hard they subverted their own “call you need is hope” message by ending in an apparently hopeless situation.

[Reelya]

What I mean with "fake subversive" is that I didn't really find it to be subversive at all. There's this atmosphere about how it breaks with the mold, and tradition, and all that... when it's actually pretty tame and you can see most things coming from a mile away.

I agree here.

Consider another term "inclusive". Saying that anything that attempts to be subversive must be subversive because it "subverts" is not far off saying that the one token female or black character in the team is "inclusive", because it "includes".

Things can "include" in ways that are cynical with paper-thin rationales that backfire and fail to be "inclusive". And I'm thinking similarly shoddy subversion could work the same way.

EDIT: Also a complete aside I note articles saying Ocean's 8 is a hit where Solo was a flop, except the only way that works is that Ocean's 8 was much cheaper to make. Many more people went to see Solo. Ocean's 8 opening weekend was even less than the much-derided Ghostbusters reboot ... but since it is a lot cheaper it will make more profit. Articles are saying Hollywood is getting the message that female-lead reboots work, except the actual message here is that lower budget female-led reboots are working (in the sense of not losing money), as long as you have the entire thing revolve around New York high fashion and girl's talk. In other words, if you turn everything into Sex And The City then budgets are nice and low and women go and see it. This ... isn't exactly a revelation, and it's not the feminist statement they're looking for.

[Cthulhu]

Solo also sucked, which is a big part of the issue.  It got okay in the last half or so but by that point I was so sick of the awful cinematography (dark murky lighting, really overdone color filtering, and super close angle shots, the kessel run sequence I had to close my eyes cause it was just a clusterfuck) and the boring first half that I just wanted the movie to be over and couldn't get into anything going on.

I haven't seen the last jedi or rogue one, but rogue one looked terrible and I find it weird that people think of it as a side story when the only reason it works as a movie at all is the ties to star wars.  Like Solo would've worked as a non-star wars movie, just a sci-fi heist movie, but without star wars rogue one is just a generic action movie where everybody dies to get some plans(?!) for some thing.