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[SamSpeeds]

Eugh, this focus on in-lore XCOM aliens is only going to make us infinitely predictable, without any benefits we couldn't get just making something up ourselves. Maybe we get a difficulty reduction to aliens we might just have lying around, but it's still boring.

Anyway, let's not switch to Vipers or Thin Men. Skin Crawlers are fine. They'll give them a host of new problems to deal with, and open up infiltration for us.

Humans are BORING and don't have nearly as much natural advantages as a good Skin Crawler would - environmental camouflage, multiple sets of limbs, maneuverability, claws, and above human strength FINALLY. Humans would basically have NO unique combat advantage, since, say, a human armed with a plasma pistol and a belt of plasma grenades would be seen as an enemy combatant automatically after like one first encounter where they might have a good alpha strike. Skin Crawlers would be "overly complicated" if looking like a human is all they're good for, but that's not the case.

I think they'll go for a fighter upgrade this turn, since we killed them bigly last time, so we might need yet another UFO upgrade soon enough. ECM 2 should do it for now.

Can we finally get armor next turn? With their new weapon, we'd probably have to go Powered Armor if we want something tough enough to stop a railgun shot, but seriously. Enough running around naked.

[Kashyyk]

Pretty sure psionic power has nothing to do with indoctrination, but that would be up to ebbor to decide on.

I assume we could clone humans, as we have to have some sort of accelerated growth for our other aliens to be able to produce them so quickly. We'd logically use the same method to produce humans.

It feels like your trying to create a master of all trades with the Skin Changer, so it'll either flop or be expensive. A human clone, while "boring", is a perfectly valid design and does what we want (be an infiltrator that can defend itself) without taking everything and the scifi kitchen sink with it too.

[piratejoe]

Pirate. Idunno what game you were playing but 'a stray pistol round' will not kill a thinman. It'll injure one sure, but a 'stray pistol round' will also injure a viper just as much. Vipers are not superior skirmishers. You're trying to play off 'being able to leap multiple story buildings' as 'just x' but it's not 'just x.' I'm not sure if you realize the tactical implications of a unit capable of flat out bypassing walls, not even accounting for if we oh lets say. Give them snipers or shotguns and play up their 'skirmisher' role even further. Vipers lack the platform stability for sniping duty and they lack the tactical mobility to compete with thinmen in the skirmishing capacity. Their relative fragility compared to vipers notwithstanding, you do not build a skirmisher with the intent of them getting hit. You build one with the intent of 'not' getting hit. Hence the 'high mobility.' and 'Attack from Unexpected angles.

A pistol can kill a thinman if the shot crits, a basic revolver pistol round, the kind any armed Civilian in the US might have, can do 4 damage on a crit and normally does 3 to 2 damage. Meaning half the time a single bullet from it will gravely wound and occasionally kill a thinman in one shot. And I don't think a viper lacks the 'platform stability' for sniping, or shooting anything for that matter. I understand and agree that high mobility is key for a skirmisher, what I disagree is having a skirmisher that can be killed so easily because as skilled and agile as they might be, they are still going to get shot at.

Lets go over the specifics of what vipers are better at than Thinmen.

-Rapid reaction: So they're an overwatcher that's hardish to hit and knows to duck behind cover when someone takes a potshot. This is good in a Frontline Combatant. It's nice to have in a skirmisher too, but there is nothing stopping us from giving thinmen the same thing. Hell, since thinmen have Smaller Profiles they'd be even harder to hit if they had that. I will note though that mechanically speaking, Grazing Shots were not a thing in EU/EW1. Had they been, I'm rather certain thinmen would have received sufficient agility to make shots occasionally graze.

This is a understandable point to make, however I would like to address the smaller profiles point you make here. From my understanding, being so similar to snakes and all that, their vital organs would be protected by the armour vipers have, as the unarmored part of their body would mostly be the stomach (and the liver in the upper section), which to my knowledge is one of the better places to get shot in, unlike the shoulder. But yes, this point if a fairly good one.

-Climbing ladders and drainage pipes are all well and fine, but what about when there isn't a ladder or a drainage pipe? Such as oh I don't know. A military complex's walls. Or a rather significant number of modern day buildings? Mobility is Extremely important for skirmishers. Possibly Thee most important ability in fact. Snipers can't snipe from street level with ease after all. And it's far easier to get around a blockade by just hopping a building instead of having to search around for a drainpipe that isn't there.

Don't most apartments have fire escapes? I mean, in a military base, your point makes sense but, the buildings that don't have fire escapes, like masive high rise office buildings, would probably be to big for thinmen to jump over...in fact, I would frankly be shocked if they could some how jump up a high building like that. At most, I think they would be able to jump five stories high...And, for a military complex's walls...why would we assault the walls? We have UFO's, we can just destroy all the walls while flying before landing, or if the complex is large enough, just land inside it. Mobility is key for skirmishers, I know and get that, just vertical mobility is something that I feel is not worth being able to be picked off by a lucky pistol shot.

-Not being able to take much of a hit. What? The hell are you talking about? Are we playing the same game? Thinmen by default would be about as durable as our current sectoids. By default thinmen have 5 health if I recall on Normal Difficulty in Vanilla (LW it's 6 and they get more health as the campaign progresses based on the alien research score). A default pistol does 2 damage and fires 3 shots in a single 2 damage attack. For comparison, a default sectoid has 3 health on Normal Difficulty in Vanilla (LW it's 4 and they gain health as the ayys research). So a default sectoid can also take three pistol rounds. For comparison. An unarmored rookie tier human has 4 health by default unless the 'not born equally' second wave setting is on. Rookies with tac armor get an additional 1 health, bringing the 'default redshirt rookie' up to 5 health. Not take a hit my ass. They don't have the 'stacks upon stacks' of health that everything in Xcom 2 does but they don't really need it. They're skirmishers. And nothing is stopping them from wearing bulletproof vests. They are shaped like humans after all.

In Xcom 2, sectoids which have been genetically modified with the use of human DNA making them stronger, like what we did to our own sectoids have 7 HP on the easiest difficulty, 8 on normal, which is the same as a viper. As I said before, a basic revolver pistol round can do 4 damage on a crit and normally does 3 to 2 damage. On harder difficulties, yes, the thinman has more health and yes, with long war they gain health, but extra health later on doesn't matter unless we decide to spend a revision on them to specifically give them that extra durability. And considering the human body, I think that they might need more then a bullet proof vest...

Vipers are better than Thinmen as Frontline Combatants. However as Frontline Combatants they are inferior to Mutons, Cyberdiscs, and several other xenos. Vipers are explicitly Not better than Thinmen in the skirmisher role.

I agree with you on this, kind of. Vipers are not better then thinmen at skirmishing, but thinmen aren't better at vipers. One is a glass cannon, the other is able to actually take a hit and finish off what hit them. Also, a major reason as to why we shouldn't get thinmen is quite simply we will have an infiltration unit already in the form of skin crawlers.

[crazyabe]

Skin Crawler:
  -Using 2 DNA Tokens: (7)NUKE9.13, Puppyguard, Failbird105, SamSpeeds, Tyrant Leviathan, Piratejoe, Kevak
Human Clones: (1) Kashyyk
Mindtwister: (1) Crazyabe

Month-End Bonus
VP spent on Small Scout: (7)NUKE9.13, Failbird105, Puppyguard, Pirate Joe, Tyrant Leviathan, Kevak, Crazyabe

[~Neri]

A pistol can kill a thinman if the shot crits, a basic revolver pistol round, the kind any armed Civilian in the US might have, can do 4 damage on a crit and normally does 3 to 2 damage. Meaning half the time a single bullet from it will gravely wound and occasionally kill a thinman in one shot. And I don't think a viper lacks the 'platform stability' for sniping, or shooting anything for that matter. I understand and agree that high mobility is key for a skirmisher, what I disagree is having a skirmisher that can be killed so easily because as skilled and agile as they might be, they are still going to get shot at.

False. A pistol of the tier available to xcom by default in newcom1 cannot kill a thinman if the shot crits. 3 damage crit barring additional perks to increase damage. Which caps out at a 4 damage crit if they have the ranger perk to raise damage by 1. (Still not enough to kill.) Keep in mind that the default pistol fires three shots in a single attack and does total 2 damage in said attack. The cumulative effort of all three bullets is 2 damage. Which isn't even half the health of a default thinmint. Keep in mind that the weapons xcom has available to it lorewise by default are Top Of The Line. The best of the best. A civilian weapon would not compare, although it would probably still be able to kill with sufficient subsequent shots. In Xcom 2, the weapons xcom has available to it are more advanced, that revolver that sharpshooters get that does 4 damage? That's not a thing right now in this armsrace. Xcom 2 ballistics are Definitely flat better than the default ballistics in xcom 1 and that is due to tech advancement.

Also if we're talking about making a unit that can get shot and not care about being shot, we should be turning off pain or alternatively using robots. If a thinman gets shot, it'll be in pain, if a snek gets shot, it'll be in pain.

This is a understandable point to make, however I would like to address the smaller profiles point you make here. From my understanding, being so similar to snakes and all that, their vital organs would be protected by the armour vipers have, as the unarmored part of their body would mostly be the stomach (and the liver in the upper section), which to my knowledge is one of the better places to get shot in, unlike the shoulder. But yes, this point if a fairly good one.

Vipers are bigger than the average human, they need larger organs than a comparative thinmint. The likely location of most of said organs is certainly armored but they're still a significantly larger target. And the number of unarmored locations is.. Substantial if we're talking about armor. Thinmints do not by default have armor, however if they received armor, they would likely be about as durable as you'd expect an armored human combatant to be and then a bit more. Unarmored thinmints are equivalent in durability to an armored human.

I will note that Vipers do have substantially different physiology compared to a human. Know those tails? That's all muscles and tendons and arteries. Imagine how having multiple bullet wounds inside your leg would feel? Imagine that, but you only have one big leg.

Don't most apartments have fire escapes? I mean, in a military base, your point makes sense but, the buildings that don't have fire escapes, like masive high rise office buildings, would probably be to big for thinmen to jump over...in fact, I would frankly be shocked if they could some how jump up a high building like that. At most, I think they would be able to jump five stories high...And, for a military complex's walls...why would we assault the walls? We have UFO's, we can just destroy all the walls while flying before landing, or if the complex is large enough, just land inside it. Mobility is key for skirmishers, I know and get that, just vertical mobility is something that I feel is not worth being able to be picked off by a lucky pistol shot.

Depends on the location. Some countries yes, some no, larger buildings normally don't. And scaling a fire escape takes a.. Fair bit longer than just leaping a building. Seconds matter in combat.

It is unlikely for em to jump up to the top of a highrise. They could totally jump through a window in a highrise though.

We do not currently have anything that permits leveling a military complex's walls. Though I will note that we should look into conventional artillery and ground air support. Also note that leveling the walls isn't always advantageous.

In Xcom 2, sectoids which have been genetically modified with the use of human DNA making them stronger, like what we did to our own sectoids have 7 HP on the easiest difficulty, 8 on normal, which is the same as a viper. As I said before, a basic revolver pistol round can do 4 damage on a crit and normally does 3 to 2 damage. On harder difficulties, yes, the thinman has more health and yes, with long war they gain health, but extra health later on doesn't matter unless we decide to spend a revision on them to specifically give them that extra durability. And considering the human body, I think that they might need more then a bullet proof vest...

Xcom 2 Pectoids are sectoids whom have been receiving repeated and substantial tweaks for the better part of 20 years. Xcom 2's sectoids certainly have 8 hp, but ours do not. We haven't had 'twenty years' to tweak em. We've had a month.

I addressed the revolver earlier. Xcom2 revolvers are not available at the current time because they do not exist yet. Their current pistol is a 2 damage for 3 shots.

Thinmints are definitely not particularly durable compared to xcom 2 xenos for sure. Keep in mind though that xcom 2 xenos have had over two decades to be tweaked.

[Tyrant Leviathan]

As for clone troops: Closing thing would be Advent troopers, which are not exact need armor and conceal faces and cyborg stuff to keep them under control. Coo idea but maybe have a country in our fold as a excuse to have willing clones/human minions.

[piratejoe]

False. A pistol of the tier available to xcom by default in newcom1 cannot kill a thinman if the shot crits. 3 damage crit barring additional perks to increase damage. Which caps out at a 4 damage crit if they have the ranger perk to raise damage by 1. (Still not enough to kill.) Keep in mind that the default pistol fires three shots in a single attack and does total 2 damage in said attack. The cumulative effort of all three bullets is 2 damage. Which isn't even half the health of a default thinmint. Keep in mind that the weapons xcom has available to it lorewise by default are Top Of The Line. The best of the best. A civilian weapon would not compare, although it would probably still be able to kill with sufficient subsequent shots. In Xcom 2, the weapons xcom has available to it are more advanced, that revolver that sharpshooters get that does 4 damage? That's not a thing right now in this armsrace. Xcom 2 ballistics are Definitely flat better than the default ballistics in xcom 1 and that is due to tech advancement.

Again I'm going off of xcom 2, and your big thing with that is that its xcom 2 so clearly the technology of gunpowder ballistics's has improved...

Yeah I highly doubt that...Considering advent rigged everything they had to blow up, and trying to use an advent mag rifle would result in you blowing up unless you are an advent soldier, and how the only humans to have gunpowder weapons would be rebels and those outside city centers I highly doubt much in the way of arms technology would be better then modern day tech. This is especially obvious considering the rifles used by resistance soldiers in the new terror missions only do 2 damage or 3 on a crit, less then the bloody revolver and what really puts the nail in the coffen for this is the simple fact that it's specifically mentioned the weapons you start out with are "leftover weapons from the original war" so calling it a weapon they don't have now is not exactly true. Also, you just proved my point, thinmen in normal unmodified xcom have 3 health on normal, and 4 on hard, which means that you can kill them with a pistol, easily when you have that ranger perk.

Also if we're talking about making a unit that can get shot and not care about being shot, we should be turning off pain or alternatively using robots. If a thinman gets shot, it'll be in pain, if a snek gets shot, it'll be in pain.

We aren't we are talking about that, we are talking about making a snek that can get shot and be in pain vs a thinmint that can be shot and fall over dead...

Vipers are bigger than the average human, they need larger organs than a comparative thinmint. The likely location of most of said organs is certainly armored but they're still a significantly larger target. And the number of unarmored locations is.. Substantial if we're talking about armor. Thinmints do not by default have armor, however if they received armor, they would likely be about as durable as you'd expect an armored human combatant to be and then a bit more. Unarmored thinmints are equivalent in durability to an armored human.

Considering the average human can survive getting shot five times with a rifle while a thinman can die from three pistol shots, or one leftover from the original war revolver bullet on anything but the hardest difficulty without mods, I would say that's frankly not true...

I will note that Vipers do have substantially different physiology compared to a human. Know those tails? That's all muscles and tendons and arteries. Imagine how having multiple bullet wounds inside your leg would feel? Imagine that, but you only have one big leg.

And I didn't take this into account when I mentioned that most of the unarmored bits would just be their stomach and, at the front near the armour they have, the liver? Getting shot anywhere is bad, we get that and its bound to happen, but considering such a large target has the reflexes to partially dodge bullets, gauss, and plasma, I feel as if being a larger target isn't too much of a trade off for not crumpling over due to a single revolver shot... Besides, if you get shot anywhere, the stomach is the place you are most likely going to want to be hit to survive...or just the skin as a glancing shot...

Depends on the location. Some countries yes, some no, larger buildings normally don't. And scaling a fire escape takes a.. Fair bit longer than just leaping a building. Seconds matter in combat.

It is unlikely for em to jump up to the top of a highrise. They could totally jump through a window in a highrise though.

Yeah, I expect something like that. And I know that seconds matter in combat, but really the trade off to be able to jump fairly high isn't worth it in my opinion. Besides, if we really want, we can just add a little tweak to our vipers and give them a boost in their tail mussles, after all, snakes can jump fairly high for their size, and considering nothing looking like a human should realistically have the ability to jump up even half the height thinmen can, I don't think it will be much of an issue.

We do not currently have anything that permits leveling a military complex's walls. Though I will note that we should look into conventional artillery and ground air support. Also note that leveling the walls isn't always advantageous.

Glances to the plasma cannon we have on all of our UFO's Uhhmmmmmmm....Well, I wanted a bomber anyway....though Im sure a strafe with our current fighter would do well enough...

Xcom 2 Pectoids are sectoids whom have been receiving repeated and substantial tweaks for the better part of 20 years. Xcom 2's sectoids certainly have 8 hp, but ours do not. We haven't had 'twenty years' to tweak em. We've had a month.

I addressed the revolver earlier. Xcom2 revolvers are not available at the current time because they do not exist yet. Their current pistol is a 2 damage for 3 shots.

Thinmints are definitely not particularly durable compared to xcom 2 xenos for sure. Keep in mind though that xcom 2 xenos have had over two decades to be tweaked.

Well, thats obvious. If they where exact copies, they would be able to raise the dead with mind powers and mind control or induce panic into our enemy. But, we gave them only the physical attributes to humans. I would expect they would at least be somewhat more durable then they would be without the little upgrade we gave them...  I addressed how you are wrong with the revolvers. I don't care what you say about them, if the Xcom 2 lore says its from the old war, its from the old war damnit! And, lastly, I do believe the Vipers are the least genetically changed in Xcom 2, considering how they are 100% extra terrestrial and not related to earth snakes at all despite the similarities...

[~Neri]

Again I'm going off of xcom 2, and your big thing with that is that its xcom 2 so clearly the technology of gunpowder ballistics's has improved...

Yeah I highly doubt that...Considering advent rigged everything they had to blow up, and trying to use an advent mag rifle would result in you blowing up unless you are an advent soldier, and how the only humans to have gunpowder weapons would be rebels and those outside city centers I highly doubt much in the way of arms technology would be better then modern day tech. This is especially obvious considering the rifles used by resistance soldiers in the new terror missions only do 2 damage or 3 on a crit, less then the bloody revolver and what really puts the nail in the coffen for this is the simple fact that it's specifically mentioned the weapons you start out with are "leftover weapons from the original war" so calling it a weapon they don't have now is not exactly true. Also, you just proved my point, thinmen in normal unmodified xcom have 3 health on normal, and 4 on hard, which means that you can kill them with a pistol, easily when you have that ranger perk.

There are *plenty* of ways to make a gun better beyond 'just' gunpowder. Lets look at the technology available in x2 vs x1. X2 has access to numerous exotic materials, alloy is present in sufficient quantities that you could likely make quite a few things with it, you don't need to use the whole, rigged mag gun when the mag gun itself is built out of useful materials you can take and use elsewhere.

Do you see any revolvers in Xcom1's armory? No? Okay then. Those are definitely not from the 'old war.' Do you see the multiple differences in how the guns behave mechanically in both 1 and 2? Yes? Okay. That covers that point. The guns are not 'from the old war' The guns are new. They do more damage than their 'old war' counterparts, they're more effective, and they're accurate. The guns that resistance solders are a tad wishywashy in terms of how they behave. Damage ramps up based on months ingame. They are not accurate representations of damage.
 
..At no point did I say thinmints have 3 hp. I stated sectoids have 3hp. 4 on hard. I do know for a fact though that even on easy, thinmints have at least 4. Thinmints start with 4-5 last I checked. Although I have primarily been playing LW so I might be off. My point stands and I have not proven your point.

We aren't we are talking about that, we are talking about making a snek that can get shot and be in pain vs a thinmint that can be shot and fall over dead...

You seem convinced that something with more hp than a human will fall over dead after being shot. Yes. Vipers do have significantly more health. Yes, that's due to decades of modification. Decades that we lack.

Considering the average human can survive getting shot five times with a rifle while a thinman can die from three pistol shots, or one leftover from the original war revolver bullet on anything but the hardest difficulty without mods, I would say that's frankly not true...

Considering that the average human in xcom has 3 health and will die in three pistol shots, much less a burst from a Rifle. I would say that this point is invalid.

And I didn't take this into account when I mentioned that most of the unarmored bits would just be their stomach and, at the front near the armour they have, the liver? Getting shot anywhere is bad, we get that and its bound to happen, but considering such a large target has the reflexes to partially dodge bullets, gauss, and plasma, I feel as if being a larger target isn't too much of a trade off for not crumpling over due to a single revolver shot... Besides, if you get shot anywhere, the stomach is the place you are most likely going to want to be hit to survive...or just the skin as a glancing shot...

I don't know what reality yer from but where I'm from, gut shots are lethal as fuck. Lotta important arteries there, digestive system is there and can leak, the ribcage is not there to reduce damage. The belly is fragile as fuck. You won't die 'instantly' like if you got hit in the brain or heart but you'll be incapacitated by pain and shock and frankly you Will die without immediate medical attention. If you want to be hit and not die without immediate medical attention? Forearms and forelegs. That's about it. Anywhere else and you're likely to hit an artery.

Yeah, I expect something like that. And I know that seconds matter in combat, but really the trade off to be able to jump fairly high isn't worth it in my opinion. Besides, if we really want, we can just add a little tweak to our vipers and give them a boost in their tail mussles, after all, snakes can jump fairly high for their size, and considering nothing looking like a human should realistically have the ability to jump up even half the height thinmen can, I don't think it will be much of an issue.

Vipers are incapable of jumping. Also I'd rather use something with 'legs.' Legs are more mobile and provide better platform stability.

Glances to the plasma cannon we have on all of our UFO's Uhhmmmmmmm....Well, I wanted a bomber anyway....though Im sure a strafe with our current fighter would do well enough...

Looks at the post of Ebbor's that stated we don't have any way to provide ground fire support with our ufo's. Uhm.... Yes. We do need a bomber. We are unable to strafe according to WOG. For 'reasons.' Fuck if I know why.

[piratejoe]

There are *plenty* of ways to make a gun better beyond 'just' gunpowder. Lets look at the technology available in x2 vs x1. X2 has access to numerous exotic materials, alloy is present in sufficient quantities that you could likely make quite a few things with it, you don't need to use the whole, rigged mag gun when the mag gun itself is built out of useful materials you can take and use elsewhere.

Do you see any revolvers in Xcom1's armory? No? Okay then. Those are definitely not from the 'old war.' Do you see the multiple differences in how the guns behave mechanically in both 1 and 2? Yes? Okay. That covers that point. The guns are not 'from the old war' The guns are new. They do more damage than their 'old war' counterparts, they're more effective, and they're accurate. The guns that resistance solders are a tad wishywashy in terms of how they behave. Damage ramps up based on months ingame. They are not accurate representations of damage.

Yeah, they could be made out of alien materials, but considering they are specifically stated they are left over from the old war at most, they are modified, which I doubt considering you can only modify them with specific things you gain from aliens, and you cant modify the revolver outside replacing it with a magnetic or plasma version. Also, this is going off the first month, and disregarding everything in Xcom 2 sounds fairly biased to your point of view seeing how the damage that 'ramps up' in my experience, only happens when you spend time working on a breakthrough to increase the damage of particular weapons by 1 point permanently...
 

..At no point did I say thinmints have 3 hp. I stated sectoids have 3hp. 4 on hard. I do know for a fact though that even on easy, thinmints have at least 4. Thinmints start with 4-5 last I checked. Although I have primarily been playing LW so I might be off. My point stands and I have not proven your point.

You didn't, but on easy and normal, unmodified easy and normal to be exact, they have 3 hp, on hard, 4, on impossible, 6. This is without mods like long war which the GM stated specifically not to know much about, so yeah...

You seem convinced that something with more hp than a human will fall over dead after being shot. Yes. Vipers do have significantly more health. Yes, that's due to decades of modification. Decades that we lack.

This is going off the assumption that this is 100% long war or Xcom set on impossible difficulty, which its not. Again, Thinmen have 3 hitpoints on normal, the same as a sectoid.

Considering that the average human in xcom has 3 health and will die in three pistol shots, much less a burst from a Rifle. I would say that this point is invalid.

same as a thinman on normal or easy. So, yeah, its invalid...

I don't know what reality yer from but where I'm from, gut shots are lethal as fuck. Lotta important arteries there, digestive system is there and can leak, the ribcage is not there to reduce damage. The belly is fragile as fuck. You won't die 'instantly' like if you got hit in the brain or heart but you'll be incapacitated by pain and shock and frankly you Will die without immediate medical attention. If you want to be hit and not die without immediate medical attention? Forearms and forelegs. That's about it. Anywhere else and you're likely to hit an artery.

I mean, I'm going off of pistol bullets, but yeah, getting shot anywhere is bad period. Thats just comon sense. Though the point is a bit mute considering they now have some kind of better ballistics, maybe gauss. I also presume the logic you are using is for basic humans in this case, in which, getting hit in the arm, sholder, leg, and so in is just as lethal as anywhere else considering arteries...And of course there is the thing that aliens which probably have less pain receptors due to modification and considering that Vipers aren't related to earth snakes, have suspicious venom glands, and so on, might just have the tail completely solid for all we know not having a stomach or anything...

Vipers are incapable of jumping. Also I'd rather use something with 'legs.' Legs are more mobile and provide better platform stability.

Yeah, that doesnt mean we cant make them capable of jumping. As for wanting legs, that's fair I guess.

Looks at the post of Ebbor's that stated we don't have any way to provide ground fire support with our ufo's. Uhm.... Yes. We do need a bomber. We are unable to strafe according to WOG. For 'reasons.' Fuck if I know why.

Probably need to either make a tactic to use the fighter to support ground combat, or just make the cannons less destructive or...something. Hell if I know.

[~Neri]

I think we probably are not going to get anywhere with the thinmint vs snektit argument any time soon so lets move on to more productive bits.

I suspect that air support would require dedicated weaponry/craft to be honest. Though that's assuming that the craft in question is 'conventional.' UFO's are anything but. Like. They can hover for fucks sakes. Not really sure what's stopping em from just. Sorta. Shooting.

[piratejoe]

Yeah, we are both stubborn and have our own opinions and facts on the matter, so its to be expected. Sides, it at least lets people form their own opinions over our little debate...at least i consider it a debate. No insults where thrown, least nothing I consider an insult anyway.

Anyway I think we really only need a tactic for using our fighter for ground support. We probably could also make a bomber of some sort with a very powerful plasma cannon at the bottom for bombing, which we might be able to use to bomb important things, like military facilities. Might be better to strike terror from the skies then from the ground, even if the ground would probably be more thorough.

[~Neri]

Twas' a debate. Relative civility occurred. Although I probably could have been slightly more polite.

The issue with using the fighter for ground support is the fighter has fixed plasma cannons last I checked. Honestly our scouts would be better for it with their swivel cannon

Though a dedicated bomber'd be nice. Nothing says 'Your government can't protect you' like a singular burst of plasma that levels several blocks and ignites the atmosphere.

[sprinkled chariot]

By the way, what about revising our ship turrets to be capable of shooting ground targets, so they can act as fire support for our ground troops, or giving upgrade to fighters, so they can go for a strafing runs

[piratejoe]

That's kind of the idea we are thinking of. Strafing runs are great when your munitions are either so numerous with enough of a AOE to harm anything in the way of the strafing, or when the munitions are so powerful they have enough power do make anything somewhat close to the strafe deadly. Also, thinking about it. We probably should try to upgrade our current scouts to medium scouts, give em more room for 'cargo' and maybe aliens, and if we can keep it at 1VP that would be great, though that's probably just hopeful thinking.

[10ebbor10]

Design

In anticipation of the need for an infiltration unit, we looked all through our DNA banks to find something suitable, we found one. A creature we called the Faceless. It was capable of perfectly replicating the physical form of a being(just one) it took in the DNA of. Unfortunately, this was simply infeasible to reproduce with our current resources. Therefore, we took what we could from that base, and merged in the next best thing, we have introduced the DNA of a mimic octopus into the mix. The Skin Crawlers take a shape like its octopus side by default, with a faceless' head instead of the normal bulbous one of octopi. They have a set of eight tentacles, each of which are four inches thick at their base and 1.5 at their tip lined on their underside with suction cups, the tentacles each end a few inches early in a set of three short, viciously clawed digits kept from the faceless, these allow it to form hands, it braids two tentacles around eachother to form each individual limb, this makes them twice as strong as average, but obviously inhuman when not covered. A Skin Crawlers intelligence is equal to sectoids on a general level, but it has extra enhancements dedicated to social interaction and language, it still struggles to manage "slang" however. It cannot manage the perfect replication its the faceless could, but it can pretty much perfectly mimic human skin and hair colors in addition to the mimic octopus' ability to mimic the color of the ground around it, and can use the faceless shape altering to replicate a human face fairly accurately, but it remains somewhat in the "uncanny valley" as humans call it, the main problem is it can only do one expression at a time, bigger changes like for talking or going from open smile to large frown are awkward, but the smaller, subtler ones are well within its capacity. It has vocal chords, and can speak relatively well despite its face problems, albeit rather monotone.
Its physical strength is above human levels, however its lack of bones makes carrying heavy objects very hard(hauling along the ground works though). It can hold objects and is capable of precise manipulation on the level of any human.
In combat meanwhile, it can shed its disguise(basically just slipping out of its clothes) and then bloat itself up into a giant octopoid creature, carrying itself around rapidly on its clawed tentacles. It can technically hold and wield a gun with each tentacle, but needs to use two at a time to keep them steady. Its unarmed tentacles can be lashed around rapidly and, due to the faceless' elastic skin, stretch long distances to slash and grab at nearby enemies with vicious claws. It can also use the tentacles for climbing with its suction cups and to grab enemies in a tight grip and rip their weapons from their hands. Its mimic octopus camouflage lets it blend in effortlessly with the color and texture of its surroundings, however it can't wear armor if it is to do so, as such a thing would immediately give it away.
Typically a Skin Crawler wears a generic black suit outfit in disguise, and is equipped with a plasma pistol in addition to its primary weapon(even if said weapon is a plasma pistol).

Hard : 3 + 3 - 1 = 5 (Average) 2 Tokens used : Benefit

In it's base form, the Skin Crawler looks like a large, seemingly molten octopus. This gelatinous nature allows the Skin Crawler to change it's shape, making it fully capable of mimicking a range human facial and body structures. It's mimic octopus skin is remarkably effective in rapidly changing coloration and appearance, allowing it not only to look like humans, but also serving a feasible sort of active camouflage, though it's not perfect. Combined with a mostly human speech center and an enlarged, brain the Skin Crawler should be capable of passing as human under casual inspection.

When detected, it can use the claws attached to it's 8 limbs as a dangerous weapon against unarmed opponents, or wield most handheld weaponry in one or more (usually more) tentacles.

Integration of human DNA has allowed us to create a digestive and immune system capable of surviving for prolonged amounts on time on the surface. This allows us to preposition and infiltrate units near mission sites.

Spoiler: Equipment (click to show/hide)

Vehicles

Small scout : One of the tiniest vessels at your disposal, the Small scout is both cheap and reliable. Powered by a single Elerium core, the vessel makes decent speed, while carrying up to 2 units to their destination. It's equipped with a plasma turret for self defense . Cost : 1 VP  [1 free Small scout]

Light fighter : Roughly half the size of a Small Scout, the Light fighter is a small craft that can be slaved to a nearby UFO to defend it. It's armed with 3 forward firing plasma guns, giving it a decent amount of firepower. Like the small scout, it is powered by a single Elerium core that gives it decent speed. Cost : 1 VP

Medium fighter Roughly 3 quarters the size of a small scout, the medium fighter is a small automated craft capable of independent operation. It's armed with 3 forward firing plasma guns, giving it a decent amount of firepower. Powered by an enlarged Elerium reactor, it's small size gives it greatly superior speed and maneuverability. Cost : 2 VP

Equipment

Plasma Pistols : A basic simple sidearm that has been used in many pacification operations. The plasma pistol is a dependable bit of equipment that is light but not particularly powerful.

Elerium Grenade : The elerium grenade is powerful handheld explosive. Cost : 1 EP

Meld Container : A container filled with the precious Meld, a substance that consists out of billions of cybernetic nanomachines that automatically capture, catalogue and analyse any foreign DNA they find. Greatly increases the effectiveness of recovery operations. If capture threatens, the container will perform an auto-sterilization cycle.  Cost : 1 EP

ECM equipped flight computer : A modified flight computer that can mimic a larger ship or deceive missiles (sometimes), at the cost of shutting of the flight computer.
Cost : 0

Aliens
Sectoid : A formerly weak species with a limited capability for the gift. Nonetheless, their simple biology allows to easily clone these creatures and deploy them in great numbers. Integration of human DNA has brought their strength up to par with human baseline.
    - Reversable Mind Merge: Merge minds with an organic, intelligent friendly or enemy, giving or drawing upon them for strength
Cost 1 UP

Scout drone : A small but fast scout drone armed with powerfull short range non-lethal weaponry and powerfull sensors. Effective at hunting down humans as well as spotting threats, but lightly armored.
Cost 1 UP or 1 EP

Skin Crawler : An infiltrator unit capable of mimicking human form (more or less). Has 8 claw equiped tentacles and is capable of using most handheld technologies.
Cost 2 UP (+1 UP if infiltrated [Infiltrated units require no transportation, but can not use equipment]

Mission Profiles

Harvest: A simple mission profile that involves a UFO landed in a secluded area to capture humans other lifeforms for analysis in the main base.

Recruit Collaborators : A more complex mission profile that relies on the insertion of infiltrating units to make contact and recruit potential collaborators.

Alien Resources

3+1 VP
6 UP
2 EP

3 UP Token
2 DNA Token
Dark side of the Moon base [Hidden, Industrious]

Spoiler: PANIC METER (click to show/hide)

Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria

Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan

Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom

North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States

South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil   X

Design Phase

Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective.  (Reward : + 1 unrestricted token)

Turn 4 Start

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