Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Madman198237]

You realize that the railgun AND now the TAV are chock full of alien crap, right? Some pottery (Ceramic armor will work best against burning-based weaponry) is so cheap relative to our budget, even if it's something crazy like tungsten carbides or something it still won't add much to the cost, I would hope.

[Blood_Librarian]

Comparing pottery to Modern ( or extra modern even!) Ceramics is like comparing the production of copper spears using hand tools and a camp fire to a industiral steel blast furnace. But honestly? I think its the next step for armor. Straight alien alloy armor is far to alloy intensive, and we (presumably) already use ceramics in action in thermal situations (Rocket nozzle coatings, bullet-proof plates, Space-Shuttle Insulation tiles, etc.)

Ceramics armor should honestly be our first set of XCOM craftmenship. Metal alloys as a full on armor requires an extreme ability to manipulate the plates so that it is not heavy, bulky, and perhaps even if we did make a set of metal plate mail, we would cap ourselves in terms of improvement (We can only make so many variations of "Make better plate armor."). If we focus on making an in between set and then made our third generation armor with the experience we would have, the benefits and "build" up in terms of quality would be far better then skipping directly to metal plates.

This is assuming the mentality that skipping straight to plate armor wouldn't be the be-all end-all that it might actually be. Ceramics can also act as a industrial machinery part, as alien material ceramics allow us to inflate our metal alloys, as they could be potentially used in other fields besides protecting our soldiers. (Ultra light engine parts that can handle absurd heat, Industrial equipment for forging alien alloy, fusion reactor parts, etc etc.)

We also need to figure out the MELD situation, desperately.

[Chiefwaffles]

It seems to me like you’re basing this on Xenonauts, BL. Where the first armor tech is just ceramics. But even based on Xenonauts we’re way ahead of that point. We can reliably manipulate and use alloys. We even have used elerium for multiple different types of power generation.
But this is very much an AR based on XCOM. Even to the point of having Meld and EXALT and tokens representing the reverse engineering and more. And in XCOM, alloy armor is a very early tech. 


Alloy armor wouldn’t be something crazy. Not like trying to cover our men head-to-toe in alloy. It’d be alloy plating over certain places while more conventional armor fit against alien weaponry (i.e. ceramics) covers everything else.



And I think people are extremely overpredicting how much a new base will get us. At absolute best we may get enough VP for one more Raven. Maybe. But we’d have to be very lucky to do so and it’d be at the opportunity cost of far better things like reestablishing superiority in ground combat.
I’d rather make our soldiers and Ravens more capable instead of getting one more Raven.

[Happerry]

And I think people are extremely overpredicting how much a new base will get us. At absolute best we may get enough VP for one more Raven. Maybe. But we’d have to be very lucky to do so and it’d be at the opportunity cost of far better things like reestablishing superiority in ground combat.
I’d rather make our soldiers and Ravens more capable instead of getting one more Raven.

I'm not sure how much a new base would get us, and finding out is one reason I want to make one. But I am sure that, if we don't make a new base, we're going to be in big trouble sooner or later now that we've waved a big 'we are here' sign over our current base. Because maybe getting a new base will only give us a single extra point, or maybe it'll give us more then that, but loosing our current base is going to really really hurt.

[Chiefwaffles]

Considering how pathetically easy it was for our base to shoot down a UFO before, how we installed three massive railguns since then, how the aliens would have to do a bunch of dedicated stuff to attack our base, and how they don’t actually know where our base is (they just have a very general area), I’m exactly 0% worried about our base being attacked.

A new base at some point isn’t a bad idea but now’s just not the time when we’re dangerously close to being completely outclassed on ground and now maybe even air.

[Blood_Librarian]

I am not basing it on either Xenonauts nor XCOM.

I am basing it upon the real life examples.

• Modern day bullet resistant vests use ceramic plates.
• The Space shuttle uses thermally resistant insulation plates of Ceramic.
• Rocket nozzles are sometimes covered in ceramic material.

The fact of the matter is, I am betting that we use ceramic plates now for our armor.

the post i made earlier is just incorporating alien alloys into it, instead of using extremely expensive alien alloy plates everywhere. Ideally, it would be cheaper then a straight alien alloy armor because it is using less in terms of otherwise prohibitively expensive alien alloys.

Another point i want to make is the fact sticking exactly to what happens in the game is honestly boring, Yes we can use Elerium and yes we can manipulate alien electronics and alloys for several things, but were not doing it in a easy way. Making straight alien alloy for our armor using methods that should honestly be reserved for vehicle equipment right now (due to its expense) when we have the option of presumably committing the same or similar amount or protection with a cheaper method points wise that would allow us to spend our industrial capacity on other, cooler assets should be considered.

I can understand if we're going for the equivalent of a plate carrier of alien alloys along with a helmet and then some miscellaneous features, but the Xeno-Ceramic armor would allow to do more extensive protection over more of the body cheaper, as it allows the use of more (and less immediately changeable) alloys in its construction, rather then only the alloys which we have the ability to manipulate (assuming that we cannot manipulate some alloys just as easily as others.) It may even be possible to have it become a standard among our forces, as it could use surplus alien alloys in the production of the ceramics in a cost effective manner.


Yes, we can make alien alloy armor plates, but we could also make xeno-ceramics that could be more comprehensive, less resource intensive, and would give us experience in making actual armor for personnel instead of diving into a relatively new field.

[Strongpoint]

Chiefwaffles

Why the hell do you think that we are "close to being completely outclassed on the ground"? Just because we lost that one battle when we underinvested?

[Blood_Librarian]

Obviously. We must always keep going at them, in the time that we loose assets such as with the EXALT issue, I very much doubt that the Aliens are resting their improvements in ground & air control, I think they have invested such improvements that if we do not improve our ground power, we may very well loose our next battle anyways.

It is an arms race afterall, with two distinct fields of battle that is prevalent right now.

[Chiefwaffles]

Because ground matters way more to us than to them. .

How many units did they deploy that turn? They had a ton of landers. And we only won on ground in one. We were very lucky that they split out their forces like that and we could intercept nearly all of them and choose where to engage.
I believe that we don’t have enough of a chance if we were to theoretically send 3 NOTSOFTERs to their main force this turn. And that’s not okay. If we don’t have a strong advantage on ground we won’t be able to properly progress.

[Strongpoint]

How many units did they deploy that turn? They had a ton of landers. And we only won on ground in one. We were very lucky that they split out their forces like that and we could intercept nearly all of them and choose where to engage.

They deployed five landers. Theoretically this means they could have ten land units. Yet I don't think this is the case. I think strength and  equipment of units varied and we went for the strongest one. I think those mimicing things are more expensive in U and E than sectoids or drones

BTW, mimics break rules somehow, I suspect they can compress themselves, travel on hull or something, in Australia they ignored usual rules of transportation of two units per UFO

I believe that we don’t have enough of a chance if we were to theoretically send 3 NOTSOFTERs to their main force this turn.

Unless they got a very tasty land tech (unlikely with them developing medium lander) I don't think this is the case. To repeat advantageous battle of the last turn they'd need 3 sectoids, 3 mimics and 3 times more equipment. If this is true, we are so behind in UP and VP that we have lost ground battle for a long time whatever we do.

[Cnidaros]

I agree with strongpoint that TAV-armour is just silly at this point, we will not have enough points to equip them and expecting it to cost 1 point is a joke.

Those are not my words. I consider TAV-armor to be quite viable route to take. We'll need to build our forces in a different way and think hard about the revision, but armor can work well, it widens our tactical options and it gives useful experience for future armoring up of anything.

I don't thinking improving IACTs is viable, unless we get to removing "can't use X-COM gear" restriction as well, they won't be useful in combat. They would only find use in situations such as this turn where we have more UP than transport capability, but going for more VP would solve these situations.

IACT can be quite viable should we reduce their cost in U, get token like effect for a free IACT per turn, get passive reaction\detection to Exalt\infiltrators activities. I consider IACT to be a huge asset that we are ignoring for no good reason.

Also, going for more VP won't magically solve prevent situations like the current one, we'll always have a choice of fighters over transports. IACT can give us tactical flexibility. Something we lack.

Going with this. We desperately need more VP and EP instead of designing stuff that costs even more points we don't have.

We'll have tight budget and need to choose what to produce in any case. When I read you or Happery it looks like you are expecting something like +2VP, +2EP, +2UP from the new base. My expectation is like total +4 in stats for a very good roll, less on average. Else, even at very hard, base design action would be very unbalanced comparing to other designs.

I said TAV-armour is not viable at this point due to EP limitations, not that armour is forever non-viable.

Regarding IACT, I still think that they're not worth spending a design on. Although the idea of using IACT to detect/react Exalt and infiltrators is a good one, and I would be willing to vote that for a revision.

I don't have such lofty expectations for a new base's increase to our points. I'd be happy with +1 VP and +1 EP on an average roll, as that would allow us to give TAVs and railguns to all 3 squads, and with a revision for cheaper Ravens (to 1.5VP), allow us to field one more Raven (3 Ravens to 3 Skyrangers, or 4-1).

I got no opinions on the alloy vs ceramic armour thing.

For ground combat, perhaps we should look into capturing aliens to learn how to make tinfoil hats. Before mind-control starts happening. I think the lesson of last turn is that Psi is becoming the deciding factor.

[Strongpoint]

I don't have such lofty expectations for a new base's increase to our points. I'd be happy with +1 VP and +1 EP on an average roll, as that would allow us to give TAVs and railguns to all 3 squads, and with a revision for cheaper Ravens (to 1.5VP), allow us to field one more Raven (3 Ravens to 3 Skyrangers, or 4-1).

This doesn't look like an efficient way of doing things. Why don't design a new fighter that will be 50% better (per VP) than Raven? Tactical flexibility is a thing but we can easily try to get a 1VP fighter.

[Happerry]

We could always go for the Thunderbird, last seen back here and now copy pasted for ease of access.

Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.

This was written up while we didn't have any spare tokens around, but it should still be a better fighter.

[Strongpoint]

This thing above is raven but better and more expensive. Even if we'll get two times better fighter for 3VP it will be very clunky to use.


Martin
Martin is a very small high speed single seat interceptor powered by a single ramjet engine similar to ones used on Raven. Design with mass-production in mind it uses some alien alloys and technologies only in places where it is really necessary. It is small and built to outrun any known or theorized enemy UFO. It's main armament is a fixed railgun that goes through tail to the nose and has a double purpose of serving as a "spine" of the fighter helping it's structural integrity. Additionally, Martin can carry two missiles on its wingtips. Main purpose of Martin is destruction of lone scouts and other light ships in high atmosphere, yet its railgun posses enough punch to pose a threat to bigger crafts. Needless to say that aircaft comes with improve electronics developed during rockslide and TAV projects. Because it's aerodynamic is optimized for a)speed and b)high attitude flight aircraft is meant to use boom and zoom tactics in aerial combat never trying to outmaneuver crafts with antigrav propulsion.

[Chiefwaffles]

I won't complain too much if we do an aircraft design next turn (and on that note I kinda agree with Strongpoint - if we are making aircraft and don't have a grav token, we should make a small 1 VP fighter), but it should definitely not use the Alloy token.

I feel like a sidegrade-ish light fighter - even if it has any degree of alloy plating - wouldn't get as much from an Alloy token as much as infantry armor dedicated around the idea of alloys. Considering infantry armor would basically be entirely within the category of the alloy token and only smallish parts of an aircraft design would be within the realm of the alloy token.