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Author Topic: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race  (Read 86914 times)

Happerry

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #705 on: January 13, 2018, 02:30:12 am »

SaberToothTiger, you deleted Cnidaros' vote.
 
Quote from: Votebox
HARM Rockslide (4): Happerry, Madman, Cnidaros, SaberToothTiger
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #706 on: January 13, 2018, 04:29:05 am »

That's what I get for not paying attention. Thanks Happerry.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #707 on: January 13, 2018, 09:25:29 am »

Quote
That's not an advantage. I'd call it a problem, since none of your ideas have been accepted by enough people to get votes.
Unpopular doesn't mean bad.

Quote
I'd say you're the one with no long term thinking given you seem to want to write off missiles altogether the second someone does an anti-missile design action.
What I really hate is when words are put in my mouth. I proposed an alternative missile revision very this turn. I proposed two missile designs one stage before. How the hell I want to abandon missiles? I may want to put them aside for some time, sure

Quote
I don't see why you think actually hitting the enemy with missiles is bad given that the second we do a 'bigger warhead' design we can just add 'and it has a HARM variety'
And I don't see why we can't do a real revision of a missile and add a fluff line - it also has HARM variety

Quote
First off, I don't understand how you think the Railguns are super effective, given...
Because 3 Ravens vs 1 fighter + 2 UFO landers was much more one-sided than FAR HARDER fight of 2 Ravens vs 2 fighters.  Also Skyrangers used it to deal with scout UFO. Ravens should shred scout UFOs

Quote
'no usage of available resources' when its an upgrade for the only anti-air weapon we don't have to spend EP, and we're always low on EP,
Missiles are part of Raven, they are included in VP cost. So they are not that free.

Quote
As for 'Two Missiles Do Nothing' it seems to be a lot more variable then that, given this battle report...
THEY DON"T USE THAT FRAGILE DESIGN ANYMORE. Also your are talking about a lopsided 2 vs 1 battle here

One last attempt to sway thread's opinion on this vote (I am sad that unit experience token is wasted. I expect it to stay unused for a very long time. Mark my words)


Landslide (without alien equipment token)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved. Freed spare space allowed installation of several guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; radar, heat and, most importantly, HARM

Landslide (with one alien equipment token)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved.  Freed spare space allowed installation of two guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; First one is HARM. It is created to locking on a signal general by enemy ECM. Second one is an innovative set of sensors that allows missile to lock on enemy plasma guns or other important systems. It proved its effectiveness during small scale testing, successfully targeting plasma pistols.

Landslide (with two equipment tokens)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved.  Freed spare space allowed installation of two guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; First one is HARM. It is created to locking on a signal general by enemy ECM. Second one is an innovative set of sensors that allows missile to lock on enemy plasma guns or other important systems. It proved its effectiveness during small scale testing, successfully targeting plasma pistols. Another important advancement is an optional modification of warhead that adds tiny amounts of Elerium, increasing the power of the blast. While it is not as strong as alien explosives found in their grenades, it is still the most powerful missile warhead ever created


Quote from: votebox
HARM Rockslide (4): Happerry, Madman, Cnidaros, SaberToothTiger
Landslide (without alien equipment token): Strongpoint
Landslide (with one alien equipment tokens): Strongpoint
Landslide (with two alien equipment tokens): Strongpoint
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10ebbor10

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #708 on: January 13, 2018, 10:32:30 am »

Quote
HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide
Trivial : 4+4+2 = 10 (Unexpected boon)

The HARM Rockslide Mk1 is perfectly serviceable missile, which uses a sensitive sensor to identify and hit UFO targets. It is not however, what was presented at the conclusion of the research project. No, what was presented is the Rockslide Mk5, which uses a complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer to identify and target things that behave like they're UFO's. This heuristic targeting system is surprisingly adaptable and should provide an improvement of missile accuracy in all situations.

UFO DETECTED

Alerts blare through XCOM HQ. Alerts go off, as signals are detected all over the globe. The Aliens are moving once again, and in force.

Quote from: Bogey 014
Target: Egypt
Craft: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Landed

This UFO was detected when it was already on the ground. UAV footage has identified silver containers, Sectoids and several of their mimic octopusses on site. They appear to be engaged in one of their mass kidnapping operations, and preparing for take-off.

Quote from: Bogey 015
Target: Mexico
Craft: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : High atmosphere

Another UFO, same size, is coming hot over Mexico. Target is still unknown, but it appears to heading one of the less inhabited areas.

Quote from: Bogey 016
Target: France
Vehicle: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Orbital re-entry

This one is coming in directly overhead. In fact, we believe that it'll pass within range of the base defenses, though nowhere near close enough to identify us. In theory, we may be able to shoot it down.

Quote from: Bogey 017
Target: Japan
Vehicle: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Landed

We spotted this one landed in Japan. Once again, a kidnapping operation, with both drones and sectoids in attendance. Interestingly, our UAV spotted several armed human groups moving towards the alien landing site, before the our UAV connection was somehow terminated.

Quote from: Bogey 018
Target: Brazil
Vehicle: Unknown Medium UFO
Altitude : Reentry

We picked up this signal the moment it hit the atmosphere. It's powerful, more energetic than any we've seen before. It appears to be heading to Brazil.

Spoiler: Technology (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: PANIC METER (click to show/hide)

Interception Phase

Turn 5

AABBCCDD
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #709 on: January 13, 2018, 10:43:43 am »

Oh, how sweet that 8 would be on a revision that actually tried to get a "complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer" in the first place.

I don't even want to think about possible benefits from what I proposed with inter-agency cooperation.

Also

Looks like have lost this turn no matter what we do. Thinking abut how to reduce the damage
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #710 on: January 13, 2018, 11:00:56 am »

Plan try to cover them all

Combined Arms Mexico
Raven (1xPhoenix pod, 1x rockslide missile)
2xInter Agency Cooperation teams

Interception Brazil
Raven - rockslide missiles only. Ram them if necessary (don't think that it is a valid tactic order but can't hurt to add)

Combined Arms Egypt
Skyranger with Phoenix pods
Notsofter with XH rifles

Combined Arms Japan
Raven with SMART missile and Phoenix pod

Activate base's missile defence France

Reasoning

1)Mexico should be relatively easy. If we are lucky and it will somehow land damaged, Inter Agency cooperation teams should work

2)Brazil - I don't want to overinvest in one mission. We know that attacks in reentry phase are beneficial. One Raven may be lucky enough to smash down that new UFO that may be their answer to the pods. Just fire all missiles in it and hope it is enough. I know that second tick of panic in Brazil is bad, ignoring missions are worse.

3) Egypt One Notsfoter unit + air support should give a decent chance to win.

4) At the very least Raven may destroy the lander on the ground. If we are lucky we'll help unknown allies (if those are human collaborators, we'll still may be able to destroy the landed UFO)

5) We must try our base defenses

Quote from: votebox
Plan try to cover them all(1) strongpoint

Edited the plan to cover them all
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:18:47 am by Strongpoint »
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Happerry

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #711 on: January 13, 2018, 11:19:17 am »

Oh, how sweet that 8 would be on a revision that actually tried to get a "complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer" in the first place.

I don't even want to think about possible benefits from what I proposed with inter-agency cooperation.

Looks like have lost this turn no matter what we do. Thinking abut how to reduce the damage

We get it, you're salty and whiny, and think that your chosen actions would magically make everything better because you're the only competent person with good ideas on this thread instead of realizing that when people repeatedly vote for other options you're probably wrong.

Mainly what this shows is that we need to get that Argentinian Jungle Outpost built so we have more VP.

Now on to the important things, like deciding what to do this turn. We have 6VP, one free Skyranger, and six targets. We'll only be able to hit three of them unless we're going to give them a big fat hint where our only current base is, and those will be one on one fights. The good news is that there's zero Fighters involved in 5 of the flights and one of them is coming down in France, which is in Europe so we can send Inter Agency Cooperation teams after that one once we shoot it down.

As such, here's Happerry's Interception Plan
Spend 2 EP on Phoenix railgun pods
1 Raven (2 VP) with a Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles verses France UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
-2 UP : Send two Inter Agency Cooperation teams after the France UFO once its shot down.
1 Raven (2 VP) with a Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles verses Mexico UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
1 Raven (2 VP) with Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles and one Skyranger (0 VP, Free) with Railgun Pod verses Japan UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
-1 UP : 1 NOTSOFTER on the Skyranger with XH-2 Railgun Rifle (1 EP)

One Raven verses the France UFO because it is still in Orbital re-entry and one verses the Mexico UFO because it's still in High atmosphere. As such, we'll have the best chance to make a favorable Interception. One Raven and One Skyranger to Japan, because we really need to make contact with these strange new people, and given they might have shot down our Drone we need to make sure to actually send troops in to find out what is going on, because there's at least a 50% chance we've just ran into Exalt and they're going to be hostile to both of us.

Quote
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover most of them : (1) strongpoint
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #712 on: January 13, 2018, 11:26:22 am »

Plan above gives two of their missions auto-successes. That is +2 ticks in panic and free tokens.
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Madman198237

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #713 on: January 13, 2018, 11:32:28 am »

Quote from: Mass Interception
Bogey 014, Egypt
Combined Arms
1xSkyranger
-1xNOTSOFTER
 +1xRailguns
(0 VP [token], 1 UP, 1 EP


Bogey 15, Mexico
(Down and) Capture UFO
1xInteragency Cooperation Team
(1 UP, 0 VP, 0 EP)


Bogey 016, France
(Down and) Capture UFO
1xInteragency Cooperation Team
(1 UP, 0 VP, 0 EP)


Bogey 017, Japan
Shoot Down
1xRaven
-1xPhoenix Pods
(2 VP, 0 UP, 1/3EP)


Bogey 018, Brazil
Shoot Down
2xRaven
-2xPhoenix Pods
(4 VP, 0 UP, 2/3 EP)

6 VP - 6 Ravens (and one token Skyranger)
3 UP - 3 ICT
4 EP - 1 Railgun, - 1 Phoenix Pods

There, that's a lengthy plan, but it hits everything.

Rough estimate: Enemy has between 6 and 7 total of their VPs, and we're seeing all of them this turn. The Medium costs either 2 or 3, and the basic landers cost 1. We will see after this is all over how many ground units they have. I don't remember if they're limited by UP/EP or not.

All I'm going to do is pray that the ICT guys aren't as incompetent as our soldiers were on the first mission. If they are, we're screwed, at least in those areas. Well, I guess I'm also going to hope that they're utilizing decoy UFOs.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #714 on: January 13, 2018, 11:52:45 am »

Losing Interagency Cooperation Team may cost additional panic. Sending one hoping that they'll win 1vs2 fight isn't funny at all. There are some chance that some of UFOs have one unit loaded but even 1vs1 isn't a guaranteed win, Also, looks like their drones use EP points and they are using both crawlers and drones.

Doubling on Brazil looks like overinvestment when we badly need those ravens to shoot down. It may very well be that medium thing will shoot down both Ravens, continue on its mission and screw us completely.

I do not think that keeping location of the base secret is important enough to ignore a decent chance to shoot down an UFO. They'll know that our base somewhere in Europe, it gives them something, but I think that something is less than a free successful mission
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Madman198237

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #715 on: January 13, 2018, 12:33:09 pm »

No, it won't cost additional panic, that would make no sense. Doubling on Brazil is the best way to find out what that thing is capable of. Also, if they're using it, they probably have a mission in mind---it's either something big or important, or it's attempting to draw out our fighters and shoot them down. I've chosen a set of gambles to take, other plans will choose other gambles.

I think you're confusing yourself. "a decent chance to shot down an UFO" =/= "a free successful mission".
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #716 on: January 13, 2018, 01:17:27 pm »

Quote
No, it won't cost additional panic, that would make no sense.
Quote
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point    [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
I see the bolded part aa a part of panic build up

Quote
I think you're confusing yourself. "a decent chance to shot down an UFO" =/= "a free successful mission".
Not using a "decent chance to shot down UFO" = "giving them a free successful mission". If you somehow read that as "using base defense = free successful mission for us" than you misinterpreted what I meant.

Quote
Doubling on Brazil is the best way to find out what that thing is capable of
One Raven can give enough information to see if it is a combat monster or not. We know that attacking UFOs in this stage give us a good advantage and I think it is much safer gamble than sending, at best, NOTSOFTER light into 1 vs 2 fights.

____________

My evaluation of chances of individual pieces of currently proposed plans.

Mexico
My: ~90% There are healthy chance to shoot down the UFO. If it crashlands\evades raven there are a secondary chance to win 2 vs 2 or 2 vs 1 on land
Madman's: ~25% - One unit of humans with mundane weapons (they are even worse than our starting rifles). Main hope that those are sectoids + nothing. It has bonus of battle on the land and trophies
Happerry's: 80% Scout UFOs aren't really formidable opponents . One on one are quite safe

Brazil
My: ~30%. I am not very hopeful that we can shoot down new UFO. We still get a chance and valuable information
Madman: 50-60% They are bold enough to send it alone. They look confident that it can fight off Ravens unescorted
Happerry:0%

Egypt
Me: ~65%: we won 3 (one without XH) vs 4  last turn. It is 1 vs 2.
Madman: Same 65%
Happery: 0%

France
Me: 50-60% , disadvantage of giving them a vague idea about location of our base
Happerry: ~95% (same as my Mexico mission but UFO is easier to intercept).
France: 25% (same as Madman's Mexico)

Japan
Me: 90%, I consider chance of UFO taking off as being bad
Happery: 90%.  Yes, I think it has no higher chances to prevent them coming back with succes but it does offer bigger rewards for victory
Madman: 90%.  Same as my, but it uses rockslide to take out UFO once it takes off, I want to destroy on land using SMART


Madman198237
I am ready to vote for your plan with two changes. 1) One raven moved from Brazil to Mexico. 2) Try to shoot down the UFO over France using base defense. In both cases we'll try to shoot down their UFOs and have cooperation teams as a back-up for failure and\or to capture crashed UFO. I know it sucks to have Brazil further panic increased but I don't believe that our chances to shoot it down will be high enough even with two Ravens. There are also a chance that this one is a trap or decoy.  Lets say they developed a medium automated fighter UFO, and just it with a key crew or created large lander for future use... and sent it unescorted with one unit on board as a bait. Alternative that Raven can be reassigned to Egypt to ensure victory there (preferably with SMART + pods)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 01:52:47 pm by Strongpoint »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #717 on: January 13, 2018, 06:36:39 pm »

Something really weird is going on in Japan.
"Several armed human groups" is really odd. They must not be like shotgun-wielding farmers or police, or we would know. That means that they're most likely government forces. That's really strange, since we're supposed to be the governemnt forces. Then there's the fact where our UAV connection got terminated. We "loan" our UAVs from the countries, meaning that UAV was most likely Japan's. And the wording - "somehow terminated" - means this was unexpected and almost definitely not because of an alien fighter (also we prooobably would have seen their fighter beforehand and they're using a ton of VP in landers + medium craft); I bet Japan cut off our UAV connection.

I would think that this means Japan is secretly collaborating with the aliens, but the armed nature of their groups seems like it means Japan is trying to take matters into their own hands instead of letting us help.


Japan's hiding something from us.
Quote
Operation Glass Pyre
Production/Logistics
2 Ravens (4 VP)
3 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix (2 VP; 1 EP)
3 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ XH-2 Rifles (3 UP; 3 EP)

Interception: Bogey 015 (Mexico, Flying)
1 Raven

Interception: Bogey 018 (Brazil, Flying)
1 Raven

Interception: Bogey 016 (France, Flying)
Base Defenses

Combined Arms: Bogey 017 (Japan, Landed)
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles

Combined Arms: Bogey 014 (Egypt, Landed)
1 Skyranger w/ Phoenix
1 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles

The obvious goal of this one is to overkill their operation at Japan, which is extremely suspicious. We also send a Skyranger + NOTSOFTER Squad to Egypt in order to intercept their operation over there. Sure, it's just one squad but keep in mind that the aliens are splitting their UP between at least 4 Landers, and probably a bigger lander. We're just splitting our UP between two things, and we have some really nice air support thanks to the Skyranger. And nothing to intercept the air support!
So I'm confident there.

Then the rest of the operation is just preventing alien successes. We may not get anything from successful interceptions, but neither do the aliens. The new missiles should be an extreme boon here - accuracy was always a problem, even before ECM. Having a bunch of missiles suddenly now hitting should be a huge advantage for us. I also think Phoenixes would hurt the Ravens since they have good missiles now, so I'm spending that on Phoenixes for Skyrangers to provide air support (and intercepting UFOs before they take off if ground teams notice aliens are retreating to UFO).
We get the base to deal with one UFO, we intercept the Lander with a raven - should go fine. Then we intercept their Medium UFO with a Raven. This may sound suspect, but keep in mind that they already have a fighter. If they've made a UFO, I bet it's just a bigger lander. Our chances may be low here, but it's much better than ignoring or focusing on the craft. We have other, more sure, things to focus on.

TL;DR: Focus on the super suspicious Japan UFO w/ 2 fully equipped NOTSOFTERs. Send a NOTSOFTER to the other landed UFO in Egypt. All Skyrangers will be equipped with Phoenix pods to provide air support, and we can rely on the fact that the aliens are dividing up their UP a ton this time around.
Send Ravens (and use base defense) to intercept the flying UFOs to deny the alien any rewards for successful missions.


Quote
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover most of them : (1) strongpoint
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (1): Chiefwaffles


EDIT: Sidenote - the new missiles actually really help our prospects if we ever redo the TAV. Hell, our missiles basically do everything the TAV tried to, but without a UI and for UFOs instead of ground troopers. Identify and detect potential targets through numerous sensors and advanced computing.
Given our TAV experience with the design, I wouldn't be surprised if we can redo the TAV in a Normal revision. Just "Use our alien computing experience to miniaturize missile electronics then stick into consumer AR headset/the currently-useless 'empty' TAV headset".
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 07:29:12 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #718 on: January 13, 2018, 07:16:00 pm »

Hm, I like plans that use all VP, EP and UP. Efficient use of resources is important.

Quote
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (2): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 07:18:12 pm by Strongpoint »
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Madman198237

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #719 on: January 13, 2018, 08:32:02 pm »

Quote
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (3): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman

This plan works for me, I suppose. I was just thinking yesterday about the possibility of developing a general "pacification" mission type, wherein we send in agents to root out both traitors and generally do hearts-and-minds work. Of course, that does require the Aliens to cooperate quite a bit, or it'd have to be a hanger-on to other mission types ("After the battle, also do this").
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