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[stabbymcstabstab]

A better interceptor, we're going to need one anyway and honestly missiles are going to get worse till we acquire plasma warheads so the Sparrow is a good choice right now in my opinion.

[Strongpoint]

My problem with going for any kind of new interceptor right now are

1)We have no tech related tokens and no good tech to truly improve from Raven
2) Low roll is really punishing here. We may get aircraft that is not better.
3) If new aircraft is slightly better but more expensive... it is not better.
4) I am not sure that railgun is a great weapon to use at supersonic speeds. Its range seems limited.

We lost this turn not because we behind techwise but because we used our resources in inefficient way. From now on we need to spend all E, all W and all if possible.

I want something more versatile than new interceptor.

X-R Drone
X-R drone is a really small jet aircraft. It is unmanned jet aircraft with high speed and relatively low endurance. It can be controlled either through satellite uplink or directly by nearby X-COM operative. It is built around one weapon: high caliber railgun with a battery for a dozen of shots. It is designed to fit into Raven's hardpoints to be deployed midflight but it can be launched from the X-COM base (suffering from limited range) or attached to the roof of Skyranger.

Alien tech token would be great here but...

X-R drone (1): strongpoint

[Madman198237]

We lost this turn not because we behind techwise but because we used our resources in inefficient way. From now on we need to spend all E, all W and all if possible.

Send the forces that are best for the job, not just the biggest force you can send. Don't use a sledgehammer when you should be using a chisel.

[RoseHeart]

Όλοι είστε θλιβεροί

Literally point out that *Down and Capture says you can wait.

Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.

And Combined Arms was a copy of it. And really, why wouldn't you be able to? I do not understand that train of thought. Especially on a mission type focused on ground combat.

We lost 1:1 air battle before they upgraded(or technically a post mortem draw, but still).

XCOM Base-2: Argentina Outpost
We don't need to upgrade our ravens, we just need to use them properly next time. The enemy will be satisfied in the air to air arena for now. We need to control South America! (While the council member will still approve a base there, they leave if it is lost).

This is another underground base focused on undetectably above all else, using different meterials and techniques than the island incase that method is exposed.
New tech takes a turn to arrive at this base, in favor of a surplus of the old tech. The design will be compartmentalized for security incase a ground attack, and to allow construction to happen in segments. The initial segment will only offer a skeleton crew of men and vehicles. This will be presented as an act of good will to our South American council member, and our dedication to their region.

X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart

*Fixed: Said Combined Arms, meant Down and Capture.

  X•COM TRUSTEE   
/\ •V I G I L O• /\\
/\ \C O N F I D O/ /\\

[Strongpoint]

I see nothing special in this kind of base, nothing that helps our current situation. It is just a - "make another base" kind of "design".

As for waiting them to land:
First: you quote a different type of mission,
Second: we don't choose tactics, we choose mission

[RoseHeart]

Strongpoint. I'll make you a simple bet. I'll do what I would have done if I had been more available last round.

I will ask the GM to clarify. If I'm wrong and the Ravens could not have waited for the UFOs to land I will vote for your plan. If I'm right you vote for my plan.

Are you sure you're right?

  X•COM TRUSTEE   
/\ •V I G I L O• /\\
/\ \C O N F I D O/ /\\

[Strongpoint]

I have zero interest of people voting for my plan due to reasons outside of the game logic. Neither I'll vote for a bad plan because of stuff happening outside of the game

I am like 90% sure that it is how it works because each and every aerial battle took place on the height of the detection and because it looks like that "(or waiting for it to land)" is there because Skyrangers can't engage on any other height.

10% are there if 10ebbor10 is willing to micromanage such stuff.

Now back to your base, what you want do you want to achieve except making South Americans happy?

[10ebbor10]

The wait for it to land bit is for when you decide to send only Skyrangers (or other aircraft without meaningfull air-to-air capability).

[Chiefwaffles]

Ebbor, how does using elerium/alien alloys/other alien tech work without the tokens? Since I'd imagine that we could use elerium (and maybe alien alloys) in any new designs since we have experience with the stuff now, but I'm not sure how that works with the token system.

[Strongpoint]

In any case, if anyone wants a base I suggest to vote for my version or come with your own that tries to gives us some benefits

This is another underground base focused on undetectably above all else, using different meterials and techniques than the island incase that method is exposed.
New tech takes a turn to arrive at this base, in favor of a surplus of the old tech. The design will be compartmentalized for security incase a ground attack, and to allow construction to happen in segments. The initial segment will only offer a skeleton crew of men and vehicles.

I think this whole thing is a waste of a design action. Hard to detect is hardly an important characteristic for a secondary base. It is obvious that Enemy has no base attack missions and it is extremely unlikely that they'll go this route in the near future. Base should offer something different to what we have in our main base.

[RoseHeart]

Strongpoint, I was wrong.

I misremembered operation Samurai over Japan. I thought, that it was about to land, and we used Down and Capture and waited for it to land and engage. This mission went relatively well, but in actual fact, the UFO HAD already landed. You may assign my vote this round.

  X•COM TRUSTEE   
/\ •V I G I L O• /\\
/\ \C O N F I D O/ /\\

[10ebbor10]

Ebbor, how does using elerium/alien alloys/other alien tech work without the tokens? Since I'd imagine that we could use elerium (and maybe alien alloys) in any new designs since we have experience with the stuff now, but I'm not sure how that works with the token system.

You can use alien tech without tokens. If you've already used the tech in an equivalent situation(for example, your railgun power sources), it doesn't even have a difficulty penalty.

[Happerry]

Have two designs which I would like to try designing sometime.

Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive glancing plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.


HWP-Railgun
This armored and automated drone can be operated either from the Skyranger or, should a connection be available, from any XCOM base. However, the operator does not have to decide every last action for the drone, as it is equipped with computer systems that can handle many minor details itself, based somewhat off the computers that allowed for the Mars Rover's remote management. Instead of the Operator driving the drone around like he or she is in a FPS, instead the Operator assigns targets and tells the drone where it needs to go, after which the computer systems can handle all the minor details like aiming the gun and choosing the exact path. Weaponwise, this HWP is armed with an upscaled railgun weapon that is supposed to be equal to a heavy machine gun (if with far more penetrative power) in use, as well as a small box launcher full of at least four mini-rockets for use against more heavily armored foes or when splash damage is needed. As well, the drone is armored in alien alloy to make it resistant to plasma.


Also for people who want a new outpost down in South America...

Well, this outpost and its ample hangers and air-focused workshop space will hopefully be useful when the UFOs next visit.

Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. As well, there is also a liason's quarters with all the gear and fittings needed to support use of local InterAgency Cooperation Teams when they must be called in. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.

[Chiefwaffles]

I was planning on making something similar, but I'll just vote for the Thunderbird instead. While having a new outpost to have more fighters would be nice, it's not going to do anything insane like double our VP capacity. We need a competent interceptor - we can't afford to send at least two Ravens every time the aliens deploy their fighter.

X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles

[Strongpoint]

You may assign my vote this round.

Seriously, vote as you wish, I didn't even accept the bet.

Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive glancing plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.

I don't like direct replacement of Raven yet. I think it is not that obsolete and we can delay such action for few turns, preferably to moment when we'll have suitable tokens. Weapon for it or craft that fights in a different way look more optimal. This is why I offer a drone that is very different to Raven in fighting style and works well with it. What if it isn't much better? What if it costs more VP and no more cost effective? I think an interceptor is premature

HWP-Railgun
This armored and automated drone can be operated either from the Skyranger or, should a connection be available, from any XCOM base. However, the operator does not have to decide every last action for the drone, as it is equipped with computer systems that can handle many minor details itself, based somewhat off the computers that allowed for the Mars Rover's remote management. Instead of the Operator driving the drone around like he or she is in a FPS, instead the Operator assigns targets and tells the drone where it needs to go, after which the computer systems can handle all the minor details like aiming the gun and choosing the exact path. Weaponwise, this HWP is armed with an upscaled railgun weapon that is supposed to be equal to a heavy machine gun (if with far more penetrative power) in use, as well as a small box launcher full of at least four mini-rockets for use against more heavily armored foes or when splash damage is needed. As well, the drone is armored in alien alloy to make it resistant to plasma.

Do we have enough E for this? I am not sure. We can take E as our bonus for this turn. Also, I prefer flying things to tracked(?) things

Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.

I still like my idea of converting a regular airbase more. With much of infrastructure already in place design will be easier and we were told that bases aren't easy to get. Enemy may detect our activity, but so what? Will they spend an action to design base attack mission? Will they design necessary UFOs soon enough? Will they get enough from their investment? Will we be unable to intercept their mission? Attack on a secondary base doesn't worry me too much.
Also, I am skeptical about keeping bases stealthy. If they'll decide to detect them, they'll detect them in one way or another.

I was planning on making something similar, but I'll just vote for the Thunderbird instead. While having a new outpost to have more fighters would be nice, it's not going to do anything insane like double our VP capacity. We need a competent interceptor - we can't afford to send at least two Ravens every time the aliens deploy their fighter.

Bonus from Argentinian outpost will surely not be as insane as double VP, it really up to 10ebbor10, I don't think that base will give something as mundane as VP for additional aircraft(s)

I think it is early to go for a full replacement of Raven. We got no enough tech to justify it. Progress may be too small to justify design or design+revision. It may cost something like 4VP and be no less restrictive than Ravens. There are alternatives for improving our performance in the skies. Also, we can afford sending two ravens. There are no reason not to.

X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
X-Com base South (1) :strongpoint

Added my alternative vote for my version of X-com base. Added a bit about pilot training to it. I believe both of my votes are better than a rushed design of a newer interceptor. I am sure that direct replacements are bad in arms races unless absolutely necessary