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[Madman198237]

So you think the GM set things up as to make 2/3s of our gameplay meaningless?

I'm not trying to sound accusatory or anything, I'm serious: More than half of gameplay is set up around infantry combat, we should not be able to completely invalidate it that easily.

[Chiefwaffles]

Not just if we don't do something specific, but aerial recon is a secondary concern to improving our actual ability to kill them. As you said, it should be pretty balanced from the start, but if we let our first design stay killed by rolls, we ARE probably going to lose the first turn.

You're acting as if aerial recon is just so we can say we have aerial recon?

aerial recon is a secondary concern to improving our actual ability to kill them.

That's the thing. Aerial Recon is improving our actual ability to kill them as well as decreasing their ability to kill us. It of course won't be 100% effective, but when you see an enemy before they see you, you have the advantage. It's easier to kill enemies when you know where to shoot, and it's easier to not die when you can't get ambushed nearly as easily.

[Madman198237]

I think you are badly overestimating the amount of open terrain we will be operating in. Yes, aerial recon is cool. No, it is not sufficient to make up for a lack of skill we are a single revision away from correcting.

[RoseHeart]

GM,

Are we close to the next round?

[Happerry]

I meant the bog-standard "Rifleman"/"Assault" class, not a shotgunner (Who I've usually seen referred to as an Operator anyway).

Anyways, as a general rule the only reason you have a special "class" of soldier is if the thing he's going prevents him from also shooting enemies. For instance: Machinegunners can't really also carry a rifle, so they are a special "class" (In modern US military doctrine). The officer, though? He's a rifleman. The medic? He also has a rifle. Shotguns? Yeah, there's shotguns, but they're underbarrel or carried as an extra weapon, usually. Grenades? Everybody's got grenades. Enemy has tanks? You've got a Javelin spread out across your squad, but they've all still got their rifles.

And if this was the real world, you'd be right. But this is based on XCOM, which does actually have classes, one of which in base XCOM2 is a grenade specialist. Given that the GM even advised us that "greater results could be attained through specialization of soldiers into distinct tactical roles" in the NOTSOFT design, I'm pretty sure that there's going to be classes in this game.

(An "assault" class is garbage, you either pin the enemy down or you hit them precisely and kill them, you don't try to do both)

There was an Assault Class in XCOM1 though, so... (Though to be fair they weren't the 'suppress the enemy' class, which was mainly the heavies and their machine guns, so I'm not sure where you got that from? Unless you meant the 'short ranged stun devices' part of breacher training which was basically meant to mean 'yes they can use Arc Throwers because they'll be up close to the aliens already'.)

As such, I'm going to stand by my suggestion for a Shotgun/Grenade class who's training is aimed towards kicking the doors in and fighting in close quarters, given that we'll probably have to kick the doors in and fight in close quarters at least once per UFO shot down. Next design action though, that's not a revision.

I think you are badly overestimating the amount of open terrain we will be operating in. Yes, aerial recon is cool. No, it is not sufficient to make up for a lack of skill we are a single revision away from correcting.

While better training would be nice, I still want to wait until we have some actual in universe experience fighting aliens (IE, this turn's combat), and then use a revision to turn the program into an 'Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program' like I said back here. Getting UAVs is also a step towards getting UAV strikes, which will help a lot once the Sectopods show up. Also maybe HWPs.

Edit : Actually, Question. 10ebbor10, is this based more after OldCom, NewCom, or Long War? Or is it a mix of all three? (I'm assuming this isn't based off the Final Mod Pack or something akin from OpenCom because that's a lot more niche.)

[Madman198237]

I really, really think you need to read that again, since you seem to have selectively missed the part where I corrected/explained the definition of an "Assault" class that I was using.

Also, while this IS based off of XCOM, it's NOT actually XCOM. If we don't want to have every soldier be capable of doing one thing and one thing only, we don't have to do that. In fact, it would be far, FAR better for us to do something that's not a direct copy of XCOM, because then the Sectoids will have less forewarning about what we're going to do.

Also, do remember that the enemy knows we have rookies (The beginning selections are public knowledge as a general rule in AR, since it wasn't  specifically mentioned in the OP). An area-of-effect killing weapon would be a good choice if you know you're going to face what amounts to a classic Soviet Rush of not-well-trained minions.


Honestly, I see no reason to wait until we've seen MORE of the aliens---other people have already engaged them, that's why our organization has been "reactivated", remember? Not to mention, special forces soldiers (Which the NOTSOFT program attempts to emulate) probably won't be readily fazed by shooting (and getting shot by) aliens instead of people.

[RoseHeart]

I will be all for souping up our soldiers once we freak them out by blowing up one of their UFOs. They will start upgrading their shields and whatever with them in response.

"Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us."
—Sun Tzu


My offering for a sig:

Code: [Select]

[center][tt][url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.0][glow=blue,2,300][color=dodgerblue][u]
  X•COM TRUSTEE   [/u]
[b]/[/b]\ •V I G I L O• /[b]\\[/b]
[u][b]/[/b]\ \C O N F I D O/ /[b]\\[/b][/u][/color][/glow][/url][tt][/center]


[Madman198237]

Then it becomes a GM question:

Do we have any access to anti-ballistic-missile interceptor missiles?

[Happerry]

I really, really think you need to read that again, since you seem to have selectively missed the part where I corrected/explained the definition of an "Assault" class that I was using.

...Oh, doh, you were calling a rifleman an Assault. That's my bad, I thought you meant the canon Assault Class.

Also, while this IS based off of XCOM, it's NOT actually XCOM. If we don't want to have every soldier be capable of doing one thing and one thing only, we don't have to do that.

Er, what? Since when did I call for letting a soldier do one thing and only one thing? I mean, if this is based off NuCom at all, classes are going to be a thing, but generally any individual soldier could be trained in more then one fashion, and being specialized that much is just asking to be smashed by something that you didn't expect?

In fact, it would be far, FAR better for us to do something that's not a direct copy of XCOM, because then the Sectoids will have less forewarning about what we're going to do.

There's really only a limited amount of conceptual space to fit 'shotgun specialist' into, and the Breacher is already not a NuCom Assault because it's not trained as a fast moving... well, assault dude, but a breaking and entering dude?

Also, do remember that the enemy knows we have rookies (The beginning selections are public knowledge as a general rule in AR, since it wasn't  specifically mentioned in the OP). An area-of-effect killing weapon would be a good choice if you know you're going to face what amounts to a classic Soviet Rush of not-well-trained minions.

I really doubt we'll end up doing 'zerg rush'. Unless something has really changed, even the rookies should be trained special forces people. It's just that trained special forces people are the bottom level for the alien war...

Even in OldCom I don't remember much Zerg Rushes.

Honestly, I see no reason to wait until we've seen MORE of the aliens---other people have already engaged them, that's why our organization has been "reactivated", remember? Not to mention, special forces soldiers (Which the NOTSOFT program attempts to emulate) probably won't be readily fazed by shooting (and getting shot by) aliens instead of people.

Fazed? No, but aliens still don't fight like humans do, whether it's Sectiods and Psionic attacks, Floaters as air mobile infantry, Chrysalids infestations, everyone's least favorite invisible flying robot squid things...

An Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program revision would be about training people to expect alien tactics and abilities instead of being taking off guard because most special forces training don't include 'and what to do when a flying tank shows up', and 'Yes, the Muton does have basically have bulletproof skin, here's how you fight something like that' or 'how to deal with psionic attacks' and 'watch out when you are at mid range verses the Thin Men, cover won't protect you from their poison spit, that thing is basically a gas grenade', and so on.

[Madman198237]

First quote: Thanks for rereading, sorry for the blunt/harsh tone.

Second quote: I mean that a gun should not be so complicated it needs its own special snowflake soldier to handle, nor should each soldier be capable of only one job. For instance, if somebody has a rifle AND a shotgun instead of being a super-special shotgunner "class", he doesn't die just because his enemy decided it was a good day to use a sniper rifle.

Third quote: I mean "don't copy the class system, those are stupid and we can do better with flexibility"

Fourth quote: Based off of XCOM, not a direct copy, so we should definitely prepare our guys as best as possible. Also, the special-forces-style training has already done *something*, it's just not good enough to use.

Fifth quote: This one I disagree the most about. Special forces training is NOT about what you fight, it's about HOW. Specops training focuses on adaptability, individual thought, and self-reliance, as well as teaching the soldier a high level of competence with every weapon system imaginable. If that thing is bulletproof, well, the specops soldier is both physically capable of carrying and skilled enough to use the rocket launcher that's going to kill the thing, as well as being adaptable enough to change the battle plan, if, say, it turns out the enemy has some form of armored creature hanging out in front of the building they're supposed to be securing.

Also of note is that we're NOT going to necessarily see those standard XCOM baddies and weapons. They MIGHT get some additional help from their "bosses" as they get more genes, but most of the development is going to come, in Arms Race style, from things they do themselves.

[Happerry]

Second quote: I mean that a gun should not be so complicated it needs its own special snowflake soldier to handle, nor should each soldier be capable of only one job. For instance, if somebody has a rifle AND a shotgun instead of being a super-special shotgunner "class", he doesn't die just because his enemy decided it was a good day to use a sniper rifle.

Fair enough, though its really gonna depend on how the game handles classes and such, and even in real life carrying two primary weapons+ammo+support gear tends to be kinda encumbering. NuCom did let Assaults use both rifles and shotguns after all, just that people can only use one gun at a time...

Third quote: I mean "don't copy the class system, those are stupid and we can do better with flexibility"

Fair enough, though again the Breacher class isn't a copy of anything?

Fourth quote: Based off of XCOM, not a direct copy, so we should definitely prepare our guys as best as possible. Also, the special-forces-style training has already done *something*, it's just not good enough to use.

Well, yah, but even rookies should be smarter then Zerglings. But hey, like in all other XCOM games, hopefully the survivors will grow and learn!

Fifth quote: This one I disagree the most about. Special forces training is NOT about what you fight, it's about HOW. Specops training focuses on adaptability, individual thought, and self-reliance, as well as teaching the soldier a high level of competence with every weapon system imaginable. If that thing is bulletproof, well, the specops soldier is both physically capable of carrying and skilled enough to use the rocket launcher that's going to kill the thing, as well as being adaptable enough to change the battle plan, if, say, it turns out the enemy has some form of armored creature hanging out in front of the building they're supposed to be securing.

Fighting aliens is still different then fighting humans, so specifically training people to fight aliens instead of humans still seems worthwhile to me. The Hows are different because you have different foes. (And eventually, different gear and abilities, when gene mods and psy powers and combat cyborgs start showing up...)

Also of note is that we're NOT going to necessarily see those standard XCOM baddies and weapons. They MIGHT get some additional help from their "bosses" as they get more genes, but most of the development is going to come, in Arms Race style, from things they do themselves.

Eh, fair enough, though we don't really know how that's going to work? I mean, it's one thing if they end up with a plasma tech advantage token, and another if they end up with 'here is some snakemen DNA to make a unit type out of'. We'll see more in the upcoming battle though, and hopefully that'll give us a better understanding of how things will work.

[Cnidaros]

GM, what does the unit cost mean in absolute terms? I see that we have rookies costing 1UP and have 3UP to spend, does that mean enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers? What about casualties, do we need to spend UP every turn to bring our force back to full?

[10ebbor10]

GM,

Are we close to the next round?

Everyone on your side appears to be finished, and the enemy is too. So for now it's me answering questions and then doing the thing.

Edit : Actually, Question. 10ebbor10, is this based more after OldCom, NewCom, or Long War? Or is it a mix of all three? (I'm assuming this isn't based off the Final Mod Pack or something akin from OpenCom because that's a lot more niche.)

Mixture, but probably dominated by vanilla NewCom, given that that's the one I played most.

Then it becomes a GM question:

Do we have any access to anti-ballistic-missile interceptor missiles?

Depends on what you want them for. You posses the technology, but given that they're not exactly infantry weapons you can't exactly deploy them as default equipment.

GM, what does the unit cost mean in absolute terms? I see that we have rookies costing 1UP and have 3UP to spend, does that mean enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers? What about casualties, do we need to spend UP every turn to bring our force back to full?

You have enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers.

The UP limit is the amount you can support at any given time.  Whether they all got slaughtered last turn ir not doesnt matter, you get 3 sqyads either way.

[10ebbor10]

Revision: Aerial Reconnaissance
Our important funding nations should have a hearty stockpile of military drones. "Drones" as in those remote-controlled airplanes with extensive cameras and sometimes weapons. Not the quadrocoptors.

With these precautions in place, we can ask the nearest nation with an available drone (without weapons, of course) to send one to patrol over the area and provide HQ with a constant camera feed of the site. No special effort required by us - just asking them and uplinking the feed. Then we can use the feed to advise our soldiers about potential threats. We'll always have an eye in the sky

Easy : 3 + 1 +1 = 5 (Average)

 The Aerial Reconnaissance protocol is quickly ratified, and with support of the council member is easily extended to a large amount of nations through the world. The concept of having to give up control of military assets irks some (especially since they dont get to watch, operational security and that), but your modest demands and significant remuneration more than compensate for that.

ALERT : UFO DETECTED

Bogey 001
Size : Small
Altitude : High
Location : Egypt
Current Trajectory : High speed descent

A military radar has picked unusual traces, and per agreed protocol, transmitted the data to our HQ. Our analysts are certain we're dealing with another of the UFO's. He appears to be descending rapidly, likely planning to land either in Egypt or one of the neighbouring countries.

Bogey 002
Size : Small
Altitude : Space
Location : South Africa
Current Trajectory : Orbital reentry

We were lucky to pick up this bogey so early. An astronomical radar picked up an unusual bolide, that appeared to be decelerating far faster than it should have. Luckily, one of the members of the institute was alert enough to forward us the data. We suspect a second UFO, same size of the previous one.

Bogey 003
Size : Small
Altitude : Ground
Location : Nigerean Interior
Current Trajectory : Landed
Squads present 1*small, pinkish alien,

We missed this one. A routine reconnaissance flight has spotted this UFO sitting intact on the ground near a small village deep in the Nigerean interior. Per the new aerial reconnaissance protocols, a drone flight was sent. Detailed reconnaissance shows the presence of several living aliens, who downed the drone with plasma fire.

Spoiler: Technology (click to show/hide)

Vehicles

Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders.   Cost :   2  VP

Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP

Equipment

Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0

Training Program

Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.

NOTSOFT training regimen : The harshest of harsh training regimes. Provides forces with a wide variety of skills, as well as injuries and trauma's. Less than effective due to high fail rates and a focus on harshness over training. Cost : 3 Unit Points.

Mission Profiles

Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.

Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.

XCOM Resources

Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.

5 VP
3 UP
3 EP

You have now entered the Intercept phase.

Using your available resources, create as many missions as you want to attack any of the targets on the list above.

Example :

1 Raven [Intercept Bogey 001]

Or

1 Skyranger [Down and Capture Bogey 002]
1 Rookie Squad

AABBCCDD

[Khan Boyzitbig]

Launch Interceptor vs Bogey 001 (Destroy): [1] Khan Boyzitbig
Deploy Skyranger vs Bogey 003 (Capture): [1] Khan Boyzitbig

Bogey 002 is a little far away, aside from being on orbital reentry we would have to travel the length of Africa and the med, might be doable but the other two are nearby and gives us some idea of their strengths.