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Author Topic: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race  (Read 85576 times)

Thanatos Russ

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #585 on: January 02, 2018, 04:09:58 am »

So you guys have the best ground combat with your railguns that allowed a single squad to mow down a lot of enemies and only lost due to being completely swamped.

Why not use the dedicated air fighters to cover for a several transports to drop a bunch of squads to win the ground battle? It seems as though you guys need to either invest inventions into better aerial combat, or just use what you actually have well.

Ground combat WILL be an Xcom win every time that you actually have some sort of numbers. Imagine what two squads with railguns could have accomplished!

And you don't even NEED a new design to win ground since the advantage is quite significant atm I think, anyway.
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RoseHeart

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #586 on: January 02, 2018, 04:23:13 am »

Wouldn't a roll to improve the missile lock on be fairly straight forward? all you need to do is get the missiles to actually hit.

I like the idea of railguns on ravens. The damage buff might help. But Russ may be on to something. Our missiles are already penetrating their armor like clay pigeons. They just outmanouver them is all.

Perhaps the railgun will be accurate, they just need to fire a trigger is all. But what human can hit a physics dafying object.

It sure is nice we all voted so quickly. I am sure the Ethereals will like that.

But let's consider the following, they can wait, a little longer...

Missile Accuracy Upgrade
The avalanche missiles targeting software is upgraded. Flight patterns and tactics of UFOs are analyzed and simulated as advanced AI composes a new optimal update. The missile targeting is also made to be more compatible with ground targets.

Quote
Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby, Cnidaros
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (1): roseheart
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #587 on: January 02, 2018, 04:47:19 am »

Eh. Adding railguns to our ravens is a straight up upgrade that also preemptively prepares us in case they introduce better armor to their UFOs or just bigger hulls. It gives us a bit more experience with railguns.

Plus there's the problem where this is easily undoable. The aliens spend another revision on "Better ECM", they win for a turn, then we spend a revision on "Better Tracking" again and don't gain an advantage other than temporarily undoing their revision. This can repeat as long as either side allows.
Or we could give our Ravens an alternative form of firing that can't very easily be undone with a revision which also gives us other advantages that can't be undone with an Easy alien revision.


Excuse me Mr. South American council member, could we park some ravens at one of your airbases?

VERY HARD DIFFICULTY
That's just silly. You can do that with anything. I can do it easily with Happerry's thing too.

Excuse me workers, could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there?



It is normal for a designs to have some flaws.
...sure, but not anywhere to the degree of your frankly ridiculous design.

Watch, here's a new design:
"The XH-3 Railgun is too big to be carried, so we've attached a horse and carriage to it to move it around. In order to allow for maximum destruction, we've increased projectile size. But in order to keep difficulty down (of course the most important part of any design) we've decided to not upscale the self-loading mechanism and instead have its crew breech-load the weapon. In order to keep costs and difficulty down, the wagon utilizes wooden wheels. Sure, they may break down, but it's nothing the gunners can't handle.
We've made some sacrifices, yes, but it's all in the name of an easier design. The most important thing we should strive for."



One may say "but Chief, that's a stupid design!"
I'll say "It is normal for a designs to have some flaws."
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RoseHeart

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #588 on: January 02, 2018, 04:54:19 am »

I do not accept at face value, they are using ecm. Our pilots were spooked. The fired missile was a near miss because it didn't get a lock.

If we were going to go railgun it should at least be interchangable, for the reasons you pointed out.

But they are going to get the drop on us again, that had nothing to do with us getting spooked. Better to have a missile that hits, than a rifle with targets too close to hit.



But on the other hand, make me a prophet.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 04:57:48 am by roseheart »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #589 on: January 02, 2018, 05:59:26 am »

Quote
Excuse me workers, could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there?
And if it was just that it would be just hard and I wouldn't mind it much. But it is - also: while you are here build large workshops, lab, all infrastructure needed for housing infantry, ground to air missiles...

Quote
but not anywhere to the degree of your frankly ridiculous design.
Why stop here? Just call me an idiot who proposes only stupid things.

Quote
One may say "but Chief, that's a stupid design!"
I'll say "It is normal for a designs to have some flaws."
There are miles of difference between design with disadvantages and purposely bad, absurd design that gives GM no room to maneuver. And you know that.

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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #590 on: January 02, 2018, 06:17:21 am »

And if it was just that it would be just hard and I wouldn't mind it much. But it is - also: while you are here build large workshops, lab, all infrastructure needed for housing infantry, ground to air missiles...
That's the point. I purposely and deceptively oversimplified Happerry's design in that summary, like roseheart did with yours.
This kind of thing is one of my number one pet peeves when arguing with people. It's so easy to oversimplify or overcomplicate things which are neither overly simple nor overly complicated. You can describe "make dinner" in a ton of ways.

Say you wanted to describe making a grilled cheese sandwich.
Oversimplification Way:
Just grill some bread and cheese, then eat!
Overcomplication Way:
First you have to think of one of the many types of grilled cheese sandwiches to consume. Once you're done with this endeavor, you have to search your household for the proper ingredients. Carefully take the cheese out of its storage without dropping it on the floor, then you have to retrieve several pieces of bread without destroying the loaf. Once this is done, you have to lay the bread, then you have to put on the cheese, then you have to put on more bread. You have to cook this with the right utensils for an exact amount of time, or else your grilled cheese will be ruined. Once this is done, ...


In my eyes, it brings absolutely nothing of value to the conversation and pollutes it with what's practically deceit.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #591 on: January 02, 2018, 06:46:34 am »

Quote
Oversimplification Way:
Just grill some bread and cheese, then eat!
This is accurate simplification. It is useful because it describes the core idea of the action.

What you did is Just grill some bread creating a false impression about the nature of expected action.

Core of my action is indeed park some ravens at one of your airbases, yes it is more accurate with more details, but saying that isn't false.

Simplified Happery's version isn't could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there.
It is could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there and build workshops and other infrastructure

Why? Because workshops and other infrastructure aren't parts of "parking ravens"
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 06:49:15 am by Strongpoint »
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #592 on: January 02, 2018, 07:17:44 am »

Idea for the next design:

X-Com base South
On the first glance this base is nothing but a mundane air base of Argentinian air force located near the border with Brazil. But it is different. One of its hangars hides X-Com aircrafts. It's radars are modified to detect UFOs. Its ground to air missiles are upgraded using technologies similar to ones used in Avalanche missiles. Undegroud it has a small production facility specialized on producing aircrafts parts

Thoughts? They are focusing on Brazil and I don't like it at all. Such base may give us more VP for fighters and detection power.
There's much more to that than the "core of [the] action is indeed park some ravens at one of your airbases."


An """accurate""" simplification would be "convince a council member to let us park ravens at their base, then modify their radars and upgrade their g2a missiles then build wokrhops and other infrastructure underground."

Roseheart left out everything after "park ravens", I left out everything after "park ravens".
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 07:24:48 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

10ebbor10

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #593 on: January 02, 2018, 07:27:37 am »

Anyway, that's enough bickering on that subject.

Now, as compensation for your sad rolls on the subject, I'll provide little bit of extra information on how I evaluated the base designs. With base, much more so than with any other design, the (intended) mechanical effects tend to decide the difficulty. Fluff takes a secondary importance. It still matters a bit, but you're not ever going to be talking yourselves into a very cheap base. [You can however, talk yourself into a very expensive base, so take care of fluff]

So, we then have the 2 proposals. 1 standard XCOM base, and 1 minimalist design. You know the standard base was a very hard roll. This is because it combined a certain of VP increase with actual defensibility. The minimalist design is more difficult for me to evaluate. On one hand, the target difficulty for a base design is very hard, it's not supposed to be any easier. On the other hand, the concept behind the base is to be less expensive. Then again, it still includes the same effects of defensibility and VP increase, though in lesser amounts. So, it may or may not have ended up as very hard too. If, however, I went with making it hard, it would have been weakened by that decision.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #594 on: January 02, 2018, 10:43:34 am »

Hm, my assumptions were close. Knowing that I would probably go for an even more barebone design with intention of immediate revision to actually get that hard, or, more likely, chose different kind of design.

________

I am curious if we'll be able to recover. In other arms games such skipped designs are not bad deal, enemy will have their own bad turns sooner or later, but here with a snowball effect of tokens... It is not easy to catch up. We are in a hard mode now. They are 3 to 1 in won missions (assuming there are no ones that we failed to detect...)

Railgun ravens are good for ground attack and for future when\if they'll field large things. I am not sure that short term effect will be worthwhile, especially if they'll repeat the strategy of grouping UFOs together and do an upgrade or two for their fighter.

What kind of revision can we do to increase the chance that Skyranger can reach the enemy on the ground? Speed? Stealth?
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

RoseHeart

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #595 on: January 02, 2018, 02:15:29 pm »

How does XCom win? Currently you've only described the alien's wincon.

Yeah, that bit of the intro is missing.

Either side can through complete destruction of the other side. Either destroying all XCOM bases and attempts to reestabilish, or Alien bases. In addition, the Aliens can try to win by forcing the XCOM project to be disbanded through panicking enough states. XCOM's counter is to estabilish a stable war coalition. They need to do this through (somehow) bring Panic deep into the negatives.

For XCOM, the destruction option is more feasible than the PANIC meter option. After the aliens are not exactly awash in bases. For the Ethereals, making the world panic is easier than stamping out XCOM again and again.

We have lost 1 'HP' to our panic meter. As long as we continue to be able to respond to multiple threats, as well as field missions to take down their bases, we will win.

checklist
-keep panic down
-destroy enemy bases

That's it. We have no other objectives, no other priorities, before these ones.
If we reflect this mentality in our voting, we will surely be victorious.
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It is absolutely necessary, for the peace and safety of mankind, that some of earth's dark, dead corners and unplumbed depths be left alone; lest sleeping abnormalities wake to resurgent life, and blasphemously surviving nightmares squirm and splash out of their black lairs to newer and wider conquests.

Cnidaros

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #596 on: January 02, 2018, 11:11:48 pm »

Quote
Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (2): roseheart, Cnidaros

Shifting my vote over. While I do like the idea of putting railguns on a Raven I don't think it's going to be effective at all next turn, which is what we need. Just hope that they haven't upgraded their UFOs.
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Blood_Librarian

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #597 on: January 02, 2018, 11:34:25 pm »

Quote
Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (5): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Blood_librarian
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (2): roseheart, Cnidaros
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if you want something wacky
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RoseHeart

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #598 on: January 03, 2018, 12:11:34 am »

There's some weird addition happening somewhere.
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It is absolutely necessary, for the peace and safety of mankind, that some of earth's dark, dead corners and unplumbed depths be left alone; lest sleeping abnormalities wake to resurgent life, and blasphemously surviving nightmares squirm and splash out of their black lairs to newer and wider conquests.

Blood_Librarian

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Re: Vigilo Confido : XCOM Arms Race
« Reply #599 on: January 03, 2018, 12:49:32 am »

Just a little story I wrote based on a character I have from a specific video game (Not Xcom) for the competition.

Spoiler: The Madman (click to show/hide)
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if you want something wacky
Quote from: ChiefWaffles, MAR Discord
I continue to be puzzled by BL's attempts to make Aratam blatantly evil
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