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[RoseHeart]

Trinity expands automatically.

Hmm, yep I agree. I removed the base elements from my part of the third.

Strongpoint that factory has got to go somewhere. We don't have a need for a more easily scanned base, nor is digging a hole and adding sensor insilated rooms beyond a modest scope.
At the very least you could make it a secondary vote, it is largely your baby, but it does have much of your peers' input.

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[Happerry]

I honestly considered adding Railgun AA to my base plan back when I was first writing it, but I didn't want to try for that upgrade when we've only put rifles into production at this point.

[Chiefwaffles]

I mean, railgun AA would probably be really easy (the hard part of the XH1 and its revision was downscaling modern railguns and removing the flaws associated with them - we already have large modern railguns that we can port over the improvements to) but I agree; it probably wouldn't be worth it for the extra difficulty despite its ease.

[Happerry]

If we'd already made a base i probably would have tried for them, but even if railgun defenses should be easy it is our first base (if it wins at least) and so I wanted to limit the amount of 'shiny new bits' it had.

[Strongpoint]

  Aliens can already jam our A2A missiles. They can easily just blow it up from the air. 

If they'll be that ahead in airforce that they can just go and destroy a base in this way... that means the game is lost. And we are talking not about just few A2A missiles. We are talking about a freaking military airbase with their own (inferior but functional) fighters, SAM, radar guided AA guns. Even if they'll spend a design for ground attack mission, design for air to ground attack weapon and spend all their VP on their fighter UFO, I still don't think they can outright win this kind of battle.

In fact I consider my version to be far, far better defended than Happery's version. I don't think that stealth will really work should they decide to start eradicating our bases stealth will be dealt with easily

For comparison, in X-Com UFO Defense, TFTD, and Xenonauts (the only XCOM games with base defense), active base defenses like missiles and whatnot just add a chance to reduce the number of attacking aliens.

Against battleships that come around late in the game. And no, in old X-COM you could build enough defense to shoot down enemy UFOs before they land and avoid the battle.
You don't expect that we'll have some improvements for active base defense till we come to this point, right?

roseheart, I dislike that trinity, just like Happery's original base tries to be an airforce base, a research base, a NOTSOFT base, manufacturing base with only a slight preference to airforce related things. Also, I consider negotiating with government about usage of their airbase to be the hardest part of my design, if we do everything that Happerry's version does, than it just a way to increase difficulty and we gain little from basing our base on existing infrastructure. In other words between Trinity and Happerry I would choose Happery. You are trying to combine bases with very different philosophy

Happerry: Build a regular X-Com base with a slight emphasis on airforce
Me: Build a base focused on using fighters, with minimal manufacturing for maintenance of stationed fighters, some air defense, and no other facilities.

Those don't mix well together

[Chiefwaffles]

If the aliens had any problem against conventional military assets then we wouldn't be needed.

And your analysis of Happerry's base is just silly.

Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. As well, there is also a liason's quarters with all the gear and fittings needed to support use of local InterAgency Cooperation Teams when they must be called in. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.

The base is very explicitly an airbase. The workshops are just to allow it to actually have XCOM aircraft in it. The barracks are so Skyrangers can properly originate from it. Everything else is just considerations to allow it to serve as a basic extension of influence without any notable increase in difficulty.
We're not trying to recreate anything near the caliber of our base lab (the new lab would more or less be a small room with some standard measurement tools so they can see "okay this is radioactive we should take preparations before shipping it to central base" or "hey this is alien alloy we can just use it for making the [future alien alloy XCOM craft] instead of sending it back). We're not trying to make workshops to do anything other than aircraft. We're not trying to make barracks that do anything more than "have beds so soldiers can sleep in them". We're making an airbase that's a bit more than "literally just a couple of hangars and defenses" because not doing so would hurt us for no actual reason.

[Strongpoint]

If the aliens had any problem against conventional military assets then we wouldn't be needed

I wanna see them assaulting a regular military base if they have no problems with conventional military assets. Imagine what kind of panic that would cause!

_______
Basic laboratory is still a labaratory. What stops us from Skyrangering whatever need to be analyzed to Europe?

Few barracks are still barracks. Description makes it clear that it is meant to be a base for ground operations, too.

Workshops are there to maintain and build crafts. Just your regular workshops we have in Europe with emphasis on aircrafts, What stops us from just transfering Ravens from Europe?

I don't deny emphasis on Airforce, I am saying that it is still a slight variation of our main base.

Mechanically Happerry's base tries to:
a) Get VP (workshops)
b) Get EP (workshops)
c) Get bonus to research (lab)
d) Get UP (barrakcs)
It is a lot of stuff. This is what any generic base tries to do.

My base tries to
a) Get VP (maintenance workshop, "free" fuel, assistance from base's staff, etc)
b) Get whatever bonuses to airforce 10ebbor10 will come with basing on the base description.

Don't tell me that that they are trying to do same thing. I am not saying that Happery approach is bad (I do prefer another). I am saying that our proposals are trying to do very different things and it is wrong to treat them as variations of the same thing. Because they are not. Not at all. The only thing in common are that they are both bases and both in South America.

[Chiefwaffles]

I wanna see them assaulting a regular military base if they have no problems with conventional military assets. Imagine what kind of panic that would cause!

You mean a terror attack?
Because that's a terror attack. There's even a map in XCOM:EU which is literally a military base. Complete with wrecked tanks and all. Then there's the extremely obvious question where "if our conventional military could handle the aliens, why are we needed anywhere ever?"

Basic laboratory is still a labaratory. What stops us from Skyrangering whatever need to be analyzed to Europe?

Well, first, it's been extremely clear that the Skyranger is an expensive and unique aircraft designed to transport a single squad and any non-heavy gear with them. It's not a transport aircraft.

Second, I don't think you understand just how easy a "basic laboratory" is. Because it'd be extremely easy. It's also clear that the purpose isn't actually to do research anywhere near the caliber of our designs or revisions./ It's just basic material analysis - an exceedingly simple task. Which feels like it should be obvious, even to you.

Few barracks are still barracks. Description makes it clear that it is meant to be a base for ground operations, too.

Ah, yes, because throwing a couple of bunkbeds in its own room is sure to cause a drastic increase in difficulty.

Workshops are there to maintain and build crafts. Just your regular workshops we have in Europe with emphasis on aircrafts, What stops us from just transfering Ravens from Europe?

Logistics?

I don't deny emphasis on Airforce, I am saying that it is still a slight variation of our main base.

And I am saying that you are completely wrong in this analysis.

Mechanically Happerry's base tries to:
a) Get VP (workshops)
b) Get EP (workshops)
c) Get bonus to research (lab)
d) Get UP (barrakcs)
It is a lot of stuff. This is what any generic base tries to do.

Oh boy, this is an especially stupid one.

a.) Yes.
b.) ...how do you even conclude this? The workshops are very explicitly for maintaining and building aircraft. How the hell are you saying we're trying to do EP as well?
c.) ...what? Did you actually read Happerry's design? Or any of my posts? Jesus Christ. We're not trying to get a bonus to research. It's nothing more than fluff. A lab good enough to give a bonus in research (which is unprecedented in ARs, by the way) could never be described as "basic".
d.) UP is our capacity to recruit and train soldiers. The barracks is literally just "some bunkbeds in a room." We're not adding training facilities. We're not expanding our ability to recruit. We're just saying "throw in some bunkbeds in an empty room."

My base tries to
a) Get VP (maintenance workshop, "free" fuel, assistance from base's staff, etc)
b) Get whatever bonuses to airforce 10ebbor10 will come with basing on the base description.

a.) Not that your design wouldn't (probably) give us VP, but saying that some maintenance workshops and extra fuel will increase our capacity to build extraordinarily expensive experimental cutting edge interceptors makes no sense.
b.) "oh yeah we'll just let the GM decide what this actually does" is perhaps the worst strategy one could ever come up with in this type of game.

Then there's the part where you're trying to defend a conventional airbase from aliens using radar and g2a missiles and nothing else. Which is a very bad idea for aforementioned reasons.

Don't tell me that that they are trying to do same thing. I am not saying that Happery approach is bad (I do prefer another). I am saying that our proposals are trying to do very different things and it is wrong to treat them as variations of the same thing. Because they are not. Not at all. The only thing in common are that they are both bases and both in South America.

Happerry's proposal is "make an airbase and don't needlessly cripple it just 'cause"
Your proposal is "make a completely indefensible airbase and make sure not to include any beyond-trivial QoL aspects!"

[Strongpoint]

You mean a terror attack?
Because that's a terror attack. There's even a map in XCOM:EU which is literally a military base. Complete with wrecked tanks and all. Then there's the extremely obvious question where "if our conventional military could handle the aliens, why are we needed anywhere ever?"

Yes I want to see them making a terror attack against military base. And wish them good luck

b.) ...how do you even conclude this? The workshops are very explicitly for maintaining and building aircraft. How the hell are you saying we're trying to do EP as well?

At the very least because aircraft equipment like special rockets can be E, too. Also, workshops are never that specialized. If workshop can build... lets say aircrafts from alien alloys, it surely can make personal armor

c.) ...what? Did you actually read Happerry's design? Or any of my posts? Jesus Christ. We're not trying to get a bonus to research. It's nothing more than fluff. A lab good enough to give a bonus in research (which is unprecedented in ARs, by the way) could never be described as "basic".

Basic lab means bonus to research. You have equipment, you have scientists. No bonus to research = no lab

d.) UP is our capacity to recruit and train soldiers. The barracks is literally just "some bunkbeds in a room." We're not adding training facilities. We're not expanding our ability to recruit. We're just saying "throw in some bunkbeds in an empty room."

Again, it is a clear soldier related stuff. If main base gives 3U, while this one that has barracks (and, logically, warehouse to story weapons, and training grounds because if you keep soldiers there on permanent basis you must have those) it should give 1U or 2U

Not that your design wouldn't (probably) give us VP, but saying that some maintenance workshops and extra fuel will increase our capacity to build extraordinarily expensive experimental cutting edge interceptors makes no sense.

Maintenance is not much less important than actual construction

b.) "oh yeah we'll just let the GM decide what this actually does" is perhaps the worst strategy one could ever come up with in this type of game.

Lol, what? Any design is letting GM to decide how something will work based on description provided. I hope for bonus to pilot's perfomance, bonus to detection, getting aircraft version of InterAgency Cooperation Teams and so on. How 10ebbor10 will interpret the design and rolls is unknown

Happerry's proposal is "make an airbase and don't needlessly cripple it just 'cause"

No. It is make a modification of our current base with less space for labs\soldiers, more space for aircrafts and specialized workshops of same size. It is an airbase only by name.

Your proposal is make a completely indefensible airbase and make sure not to include any beyond-trivial QoL aspects

My proposal is to make an adequately defensible airbase with potential of increasing it defense in future and make sure to not include non-airforce related stuff to make base as easy to design and as hard to detect as possible. You completely miss the fact that this base tries to be stealthy, too. Just in a different way.

[RoseHeart]

Well I tried.

Strongpoint, it is either: you vs me vs chief and Happ, or you and me come together quickly to have a seat at the table. If we can look over artificial differences, really, you wanted an aircraft factory did you not, so some research is good.

Chief is totally against the airbase, tbh, I am neutral.


Happery, can you add the part about improving relations with the South American council member(to reduce panic)? I believe this is worth pointing out and should not just be assumed. Presentation is key. The plan could be resisted if ham handled.


If you haven't noticed I tend to be the round closer. I can compromise. Just sweeten the deal fellas.

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[stabbymcstabstab]

Design
Arc Thrower and Containment (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (0):
X-Com base South (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros
Trinity Airbase (1): roseheart

Resource Point
EP (1): Chiefwaffles

Hey don't forget about me I'm siding with Happery and Chiefwaffles on this, also in the history of Sci-Fi when has a open air base ever been a good idea against a enemy with orbital supremacy which they can use to come down right on top of it without warning.?

[Strongpoint]

Well, I tried....

I fail to see why are you so paranoid about attack and why majority is worried about a minor asset like secondary base, why you want to go for a much more resource intensive design with large scale construction.

My proposal is about getting a small and quite well hidden base with some additional defense. You make it sound like I want a huge base with a huge "attack here" sign visible from orbit.

I really fail to see how Happery's proposal will defend better against detection and\or destruction.

[RoseHeart]

An airbase has advantages. I am not convinced it will be as defensible, but it will be cheap VP.

It should be undetectible. Routine airbase traffic will be a cover for our own. There may be political benefits to getting in close with the South American military.

It is aggressive expansion, and I like that.


Uh, I'd rather have to many troops, than too many guns. Unused EP never help, but with an airbase, we'll always be able to fill another skyranger.

Design
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (3): strongpoint, Cnidaros, roseheart

Resource Point
EP (1): Chiefwaffles
UP (1): roseheart

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[Strongpoint]

Ties are good! Ties are great! Who didn't vote? Madman?

Trying to bring order to my thoughts on both proposals

Difficulty: Base South looks easier to design because it doesn't involve much construction in the middle of nowhere. After all Base South was born when I was thinking - how to make a base with a minimal investment after 10ebbor10s "base is not an easy design" comment.
Detection: Base South is harder to detect during construction because it involves much less machinery to dig and build. It is harder to detect by observing from orbit because its activity is masked by a regular air base traffic. On other hand Base South have a problem of more people knowing about it and if enemy have\will have agents on earth this may be a problem
Defense: Base South has a better defense short term because it is built amidst a military base. Argentina Outpost will have a better defense when technology of aliens will get to the point when they can ignore non X-COM military forces. Note that Base South can be revised
Impact: Base South aims for less. It is a minor base. It is a hangar+small workshop worth of stuff.  Argentina Outopst despite its name is not an outpost. It is a full sized base. It will bring more stuff for the cost of being harder to build
Impact of losing against base attack Base South have few engineers, no scientists, no large warehouses with infantry equipment so negative impact on X-COM should be minimal. On other hand attack on airbase counts as free terror mission.
Panic Meter Base South looks like a more direct help. We essentially reinforcing our ally and share some technologies. Argentinian Outposts is just "give us some land for new base"
Synergy with existing techs: Base South tries to go on with our ongoing cooperation with world arms in form of drone recon and special forces units. We made few steps in this direction, it is good to make more steps in the same direction.

BTW
10ebbor10
Do we need to distribute token NOW or we can wait till reaction phase?

[RoseHeart]

Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective.  (Reward : + 1 unrestricted token)

Host: Is heaven real? Does it get cellphone reception? One woman says yes. That's the topic today on Miracle Witness!

Host: My condolences for your loss. Your brother was killed while vacationing in Brazil- when was the last time you heard from him?

Guest: Thank you. He texted me before he left. Within a day I got the call he had died in the terrorists attack.

Host: ...and that's when the miracle happened?

Guest: I got another text a day later.

Host: What did these texts say.

Guest: The first was just wishing me a happy birthday and apology he couldn't miss this chance to get away.

Host: The second.

Guest: Just...a jumble of random symbols. But...

Host: ...yes?

Guest: They were...changing and...

Host: Uh huh?

Guest: I saw his face! They formed his face! It is a miracle! But, why did you look so weary brother?? So...cold. So...empty.

Guest: You were such a joy to many, so pious. Of course you went to the golden kingdom. Do not be afraid.

Host: Do you still have the phone.

Guest: *reaches for purse* Yes here it—

Guest *looks at phone, expression changes to horror*

Guest *begins convulsing and jibbering*

Host: (well this woman is nuts)

Host: Next time on Miracle Witness, one man says he saw the Virgin Mary in his leftovers, has new diet to share with the world!

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